Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[charlie_]

You should do that soon while I'm still awake to respond.

[CT075]

What?? Misrep? All I said was that he was asking about RVS votes (which he was, unambiguously) and then gave my opinion (that it is holding us closer to RVS than useful scumhunting), which is not "representing" anything he said so it can't be a misrep.

i dunno man

the wording is very accusatory, as if you're making it out to be scummy (which it isn't)

Anyway, asking people for RVS explanations is likely to result in "well it was RVS" or "well there was something vague n0 that bothered me" (see SB's explanation for his vote on you). These are not productive for the town, and are distracting from any productive discussions that the town may actually be having.

what is the harm? it's not as if anything else was going somewhere productive. think about it from town!manix's point of view (i'll get to scum!manix later). we'll assume that he's telling the truth about "omg i can't find any reads"

"omg everything's null"

"hm what haven't i asked about already"

>RVS

"guess i'll go after that"

now, from scum!manix's point of view (for the sake of simplicity i want to say that scum!manix would have lied about "i can't find reads" but it doesn't really matter anyway). bringing up the RVS votes would very well have been a distraction for the town, but if (as you say) the only response was "it was a randvote" then the distraction is a) minimal and b) i would argue detrimental as well. what does scum have to gain by calling attention to themselves? It's not as if there are huge townie points to be gained from bringing up this line of inquiry.

tl;dr i can't really see this being a scum move

"Calling Manix out" for not talking about other things? Yes, Manix has been very active, but here's what his last 30 hours consists of:

[sNIP]

Zero scumreads. He says there are some people he finds scummier than others, but doesn't mention who. Yes, I think there are other things he could be talking about other than RVS. Where's the vote update he promised?

so, pray tell, what are you expecting him to talk about? instead of vaguely waving around saying "there are tons of other things you could be talking about," why don't you bring them up yourself for discussion?

All that said... I don't think he's as scummy as SB, and that's where my vote is staying. Why does that bother you? Maybe I should elaborate on my position on SB. Post on that to follow.

i don't find it very productive to leave your vote on someone for weak reasons, especially since that person is (imo) really unlikely to be lynched

[CT075]

wait fuck me this isn't a hammer game ignore that last post

also the point about manix not actually updating his vote i'll note for now (i'm giving him until his next post before i make judgement)

[CT075]

wait fuck me this isn't a hammer game ignore that last post point

yeah i'm really scattered right now

[CT075]

tl;dr i can't really see this being a scum move

i guess i should rephrase this:

i would far rather look for scum benefit over town detriment (in the cases where they actually are distinct; for the most part they're the same thing)

in this particular case there is a potential for very minor town detriment (we're distracted for all of like two posts), potential for town gain (if something actually turns up, which is unlikely but possible) and literally no scum benefit

[Grassbridger]

SB started pinging for me here, which was the post where he voted for me, but that wasn't what seemed scummy. As I explained previously, his argument for Shinori being town only lists scummy things that Shinori did. No justification there for why Shinori seems town.

Then there's his justification for voting me--I guess I can see why it might seem weird that I unvoted him while arguing with him, except I also explained very clearly why I was unvoting him: his self-QT-quote seemed genuine and very town, so, despite my suspicions, I switched my vote.

Next he misrepped my vote on Xinnidy:

"The reason for his Xinn vote was that he didn't know why she was voting for Shinori"

No, I was pretty sure I knew, but I wanted Xinn to say it. It was early enough that there wasn't even any real pressure to the vote, just a note that I was serious.

"Seems kind of like Grass is coming to Shinori's defense with the wording of it as well."

Nope. I just wasn't. You can interpret my wording as you please, but I wasn't.

The rest of that post consists of calling me defensive as many times as possible. If he is in fact scum, this would be explained by wanting to make me look bad/defensive.

Then, a few posts later (in response to me I think), he claims that Shinori is improving "from posts like this [link]" but again doesn't actually show the good side, just that Shinori was bad at one point. Then he claims again that I was defending Shinori. (If you think he's town, what's the big deal with that exactly?) I wasn't defending him; SB was reading way too much into one sentence.

He accuses me of bandwagoning on him (not at all true; voting for someone who already has votes isn't necessarily bandwagoning and there were no votes on him that were even close to recent) and asks for my Shinori read.

Then there's all the stuff about Ether, which I get a nullread out of. And the rest of the posts are not very important, except for his offer to claim.

And since Cam has responded to my last post:

No, I'm not accusing you of anything, I just want to make it clear I didn't misrep Manix, which you suggested I did (speaking of accusatory).

I guess you have a point about the lack of productive discussion at the moment. But asking about RVS makes Manix look more active in scumhunting than he's actually being, which is definitely a scum benefit.

The things I think he should talk about? His promised vote update, and who he finds scummy. i.e. things he said existed and that will help scumhunt. I can't bring those points up for discussion because they're inside his head.

[CT075]

1. i don't see a real issue with your SB case

2. response!

No, I'm not accusing you of anything, I just want to make it clear I didn't misrep Manix, which you suggested I did (speaking of accusatory).

i don't really care if you're accusing me, and i am in fact accusing you

Manix: I feel like asking people to explain RVS votes, at this point, is trying to keep us in the RVS.

this, specifically, is what i'm calling accusatory, by the way (well also the rest of the lines but this most of all)

I guess you have a point about the lack of productive discussion at the moment. But asking about RVS makes Manix look more active in scumhunting than he's actually being, which is definitely a scum benefit.

there's some minor towncred to be gained here, i suppose, but i still think the potential benefit to town outweighs any benefit for scum

The things I think he should talk about? His promised vote update, and who he finds scummy. i.e. things he said existed and that will help scumhunt. I can't bring those points up for discussion because they're inside his head.

it would probably have helped to actually ask for this in your initial post?

[Grassbridger]

Votals:

Bananas (2): Grassbridger, Strege

BBM (1): Ether

Ether (2): Xinnidy, SB

Shinori (3): Balcerzak, Kay, scorri

Strege (2): Manix, BBM

Manix (2): Blitz, Elieson

Balcerzak (1): Shinori

No vote: Camtech

Cam, you're around at the moment, care to cast a vote? Preferably for someone who has at least two votes.

Man we need to consolidate, assuming phase isn't extended we have just under 8 hours left by my count. I think Ether and Shinori should move their votes, for starters.

[CT075]

2. response!

i don't really care if you're accusing me, and i am in fact accusing you of being accusatory towards manix

yeah i should stop playing mafia and go finish my homework

[Grassbridger]

Oh. I see what you were saying. Yes, I was accusing Manix of being scum and trying to keep us in RVS. You have made reasonable counterpoints. What are you accusing me of, exactly? Scumhunting?

[CT075]

this isn't a hammer game, vote consolidation isn't as important as long as we don't get nonsense like "yay everyone has exactly one vote on them!"

##vote SB

i would really rather look at someone else (and i'll be unvoting if we get an extension) but i need to reread the shinori case (but that won't come for a while; i'm going to go finish my homework now)

[CT075]

Oh. I see what you were saying. Yes, I was accusing Manix of being scum and trying to keep us in RVS. You have made reasonable counterpoints. What are you accusing me of, exactly? Scumhunting?

i'm not so good at this scumhunting thing so i'm =just poking at what i see to be faulty logic

i felt that you were accusing manix for a really weak reason (which i find scummy) and i would have voted you for it but i like your responses so i won't for now

[CT075]

and on that note i'm going to peace out for the next hour at least

[Shinori]

If I move my vote it's going back to SB. And I'll do that should I need to. But I do not think Balc should be allowed to go about 56 hours or so without saying anything.

He has time to get in here and post and I expect him to.

[BBM]

Just because we don't need a hammer doesn't mean we don't need an extension. My reads haven't been that good this phase and the only people I would really be okay with lynching are Strege and Ether, because upon my reread I don't really think that SB is scummy.

Balcerzak also needs to post, but the one post he made I didn't really find scummy, and if something needs to be done, it'll be done by the mod. I don't particularly want to lynch someone on D1 just for being inactive.

[charlie_]

SB started pinging for me here, which was the post where he voted for me, but that wasn't what seemed scummy. As I explained previously, his argument for Shinori being town only lists scummy things that Shinori did. No justification there for why Shinori seems town.

If you looked at my responses later, I said he looked more town than he did (not anymore though, last page in particular gives off bad vibes from him.

Then there's his justification for voting me--I guess I can see why it might seem weird that I unvoted him while arguing with him, except I also explained very clearly why I was unvoting him: his self-QT-quote seemed genuine and very town, so, despite my suspicions, I switched my vote.

Scum can make a single post that seems really genuine and townie, and town can have scummy reactions to things. So Manix looking town in one point outweighed your previous scumread on him?

Next he misrepped my vote on Xinnidy:

"The reason for his Xinn vote was that he didn't know why she was voting for Shinori"

No, I was pretty sure I knew, but I wanted Xinn to say it. It was early enough that there wasn't even any real pressure to the vote, just a note that I was serious.

"Seems kind of like Grass is coming to Shinori's defense with the wording of it as well."

Nope. I just wasn't. You can interpret my wording as you please, but I wasn't.

Then whats the point of asking a question that you already know the answer to? And tat still looked like you were defending shinori to me.

The rest of that post consists of calling me defensive as many times as possible. If he is in fact scum, this would be explained by wanting to make me look bad/defensive.

Then, a few posts later (in response to me I think), he claims that Shinori is improving "from posts like this [link]" but again doesn't actually show the good side, just that Shinori was bad at one point. Then he claims again that I was defending Shinori. (If you think he's town, what's the big deal with that exactly?) I wasn't defending him; SB was reading way too much into one sentence.

Covered above, and I'm pretty sure I said that Shinori wasn't a townread in a previous post. Also reading deeply into what people say is kind of a thing I do. Blame my English teacher.

He accuses me of bandwagoning on him (not at all true; voting for someone who already has votes isn't necessarily bandwagoning and there were no votes on him that were even close to recent) and asks for my Shinori read.

Looking back, Strege's vote on me felt a lot closer to the time than it was, but the first time you really mentioned me was in that post, after I'd already amounted some votes.

Then there's all the stuff about Ether, which I get a nullread out of. And the rest of the posts are not very important, except for his offer to claim.

So none of my scumhunting or anything else has been worthwhile, since you seem to just be ignoring it.

[charlie_]

Going to sort some homework out, and if nothing's changed I'll claim then.

[BBM]

SB, as Shinori will probably choose to vote you solely in a not-me-over-me if the votes between you two are tied, you should probably claim before you go to sleep, since we don't know whether or not we'll be granted an extension.

[Grace]

just woke up

What's with this being painted as a "defense", Manix? This is shouting MISREP to me, especially during an early RVS stage like this.

Elie it's like you didn't read. I thought it was a defense of Ether and you don't have to agree with me.

Note these posts in order; BBM is certain that people don't have alignments pre-game, and Manix is unsure of it. I feel like one of these might be a slip, more likely Manix than BBM due to wording (yes I'm the wording Nazi I know).

And did you even read my justification? Stop pushing bullshit.

More Manix fun. Is this really something that needs to be called out so early in the game? It's been almost one Day phase and you're already calling potshots as if you're the unanimously agreed on town-leader or something.

Did I ever say I was? ffs Elie you're not helping your case here. I can still try to be decisive even if I'm not agreed on as town, because that's the cornerstone of solid play.

He is (I've counted at least 4 instances) backing off of anything he says and any finger he points pretty much with one or two replies from his target,

Source Your Shit please

IF everyone can so easily dismiss your scumhunting cases, I question your ability to actually be hunting for scum.

This is shitlogic and you know it. Why aren't you getting on Kay's Shinori case then for the same reasons? (Or for that matter, Shinori for dismissing it so quickly but that's another story)

I don't like how Manix is pressuring people to have real reasoning for RVS votes. Asking about it is fine but jokevotes at that point are not really scummy or anything.

sd;lfkjasdljfhaskjdhf why are people not remembering my earlier spiel about taking responsibility for RVS actions my god

Manix: I feel like asking people to explain RVS votes, at this point, is trying to keep us in the RVS.

We are well out of RVS. What is your point then?

Yes, we want to hold people accountable, but (a) you seem to have missed me asking for (and receiving) a vote explanation from Xinnidy despite the exchange lasting several posts, and (b) there's a lot more content that *you* could be talking about than RVS votes.

a) yes I missed that because I'm a derp and it was late when I made that post

b) I read through the thread and nothing struck out to me as particularly noteworthy to push on, as already stated before I went to sleep

If you're going to call Manix out for wanting Cam hypothetically vigged if he keeps the apathy and doesn't give enough content to work with, have in mind I've suggested the same at the end of this post, so I'd have disagree with that being a stance to try to 'call the potshots', and wonder what your read on me is with that in mind.

PSA: attn, Elieson

This is why your point against me is shit. You chose to call me out but not Xinny, and because of that it feels like you're grasping for reasons to find me scummy.

so, pray tell, what are you expecting him to talk about? instead of vaguely waving around saying "there are tons of other things you could be talking about," why don't you bring them up yourself for discussion?

Gonna follow this up: The activity over the past 48 hours has been pretty bad (compare to most other D1's and this probably has like, half the posts) so it's harder to get reads

also to whoever asked about my vote change: I'm actually leaving it there because I still don't like Strege's lack of content and the content he does have doesn't strike me as town or scum, but it's the best I've got (I have a huge number of nullreads, so I have to drop the bar of suspicion)

[Grace]

also Cam's activity burst really helped his standing, wouldn't vig anymore

[charlie_]

I'll claim if necessary, I'd rather not repeat the past.

That's not to say I'm not watching him though.

Yeah. No points for guessing what I am.

[charlie_]

funking quotes

[Elieson]

1. You indicated both that you were somewhat suspicious of Blitzy, and then that he wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary for him and your vote for him was purely random. Explain how this is not a contradiction.

2. It doesn't matter what he's done since. You did not pressure him for lack of content earlier because you had seen the future and knew he wouldn't post much later. That was on Page 3, it was not unreasonable for someone to have not made a content post yet.

3. I didn't like all the "BBM's not reading my post" "I don't know whether that was a slip or not" "Nah it wasn't a slip so he's skimming" posts, because it looks like you're trying to draw attention to BBM's mistake and make it look bad without directly accusing him.

I don't like how Manix is pressuring people to have real reasoning for RVS votes. Asking about it is fine but jokevotes at that point are not really scummy or anything.

He already explained this. He's just admitting to possibly being biased because of it, not saying it's a legitimate argument.

I voted BBM because I don't think I can read him well, and on N0 he was oddly confident that alignments weren't determined yet. I'm still nullreading him though -- he went from policing the thread (I don't mean that negatively) to weirdly tunneling, but I feel like BBM would exit less conspicuously than this if he was hiding something.

Elie, why do you feel that one of them might be a slip?

SB's improved a bit in my eyes due to activity and his language. I know these reasons are kind of vague, which is why I'm not taking my vote off of him right now. I sympathize with the exam schedule but I'm still scumreading scorri -- she has a lot to prove when she comes back. I don't share the scumread of Manix -- he's been drawing a lot of attention when he didn't need to, and has promoted activity when things start getting quiet, which seem like needless risks for scum. I agree with SB that Ether's content warrants some suspicion, but SB telegraphed that he was looking after Ether -- not sure what to make of that exactly.

I'm not sure I'll have the chance to post for another ~9 hours, but I'll try to get something up then.

Candy box is great.

Why? Because one player (BBM) is confident that alignments weren't pre-decided, while another (Manix) was making an educated guess. I feel more comfortable agreeing with BBM, and am curious why a Town!Manix would be guessing at the alignment issue (See SlayerX->Avatar Mafia; regarding Alignment names).

That would still be it.

Fair. I don't think I took that into account either.

I have a question still: what is your read on BBM? I've noticed that, until you voted SB, you had a vote on him and it never really got a reaction, nor did I see you passing a new opinion on him.

If you're going to call Manix out for wanting Cam hypothetically vigged if he keeps the apathy and doesn't give enough content to work with, have in mind I've suggested the same at the end of this post, so I'd have disagree with that being a stance to try to 'call the potshots', and wonder what your read on me is with that in mind.

That's either cutting it close to or at N1, then... very well. I will await your content.

Shinori, do you still feel your read on SB? Considering I haven't seen you giving an opinion on him for a while, and I just saw you reading the thread.

I gotta leave now to the amazing world of concentrated study, this post was kinda all over the place and I'm not sure it served my purpose, but I'll get back to it tonight.

I missed this, probably because it was near the middle of a larger singular post (that I apparently missed), while Manix's thoughts are organized differently and each post of his tends to present a single (or maybe two) topics.

Manix, i'm building a rebuttal to you don't worry

[Grace]

that watcher!SB

don't worry I dropped my softclaim in the thread somewhere and someone has already quoted it

[Elieson]

Oh shoot I quote'd Kay and didn't even respond to it.

Kay, I know he said he felt biased by the situation, but I wasn't here to respond to it; that doesn't mean that I'm instantly taking what it is that he said for full face value, as he did have to continue his defense over his statement when poked about it.

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