RTU discussion thread

[Raine]

Ricken woulda benefited from Dark Mage-- and would have made sense with his curious nature and delving into the dark arts. I honestly hate archer as a class. Period.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Everyone who gets Archer basically get gimped because Archer sucks when it comes to skillset, to be honest.

"Ricken has only one class set based around magic: the Mage set."

Skills > Class

A good example would be Libra vs Tharja. Libra is worse than Tharja as a Dark Mage. Why? Because tharja has Knight.

Edited May 26, 2013 by JSND

[Raine]

The only thing I'd use archer for is Hit +20-- and that's only because the unit in question couldn't get anything better.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Raine

[Da Bear]

7/10

Stahl is not so good: Bad class setup, lopsided stats, terrible resistance and terrible speed. And StahlxKellam is just overkill physical durability (It doesn’t solve any of their problems: attack speed and mages!)

Okay so while I'm okay with this score the rest of the post has me wondering.

His classes are fine. Are you going to rank Panne low because she has a terrible class set?

His stats being lopsided is fine. Sully's are just as much or even more lopsided.

First off almost everyone has terrible resistance. Not just Stahl.

Second his speed is fine 50% isn't a dream but it's actually not much worse than Sully's growth (10% difference). I can only assume you've been screwed in the past and immediately assumed that your experience was how it was for everyone. I'm okay with using personal experience but please don't use it to make universal statements.

You talk as if "overkill physical durability" is a bad thing. A unit that 2RKOes and never dies is better than one who 1RKOes and gets 3HKOed.

AS isn't a problem for him. Very few people double early-game and tonics fix any problems you have very quickly. Mages are a problem for 90% of physical units Stahl isn't the only one.

Edited May 26, 2013 by bearclaw13

[ZemZem]

Just throwing out that Panne has Wyvern Rider, which everyone reclasses her to because she's just too damn good with that class.

[Da Bear]

Just throwing out that Panne has Wyvern Rider, which everyone reclasses her to because she's just too damn good with that class.

Yeah. But Stahl is nearly perfect in Paladin and he said his class set is bad. I don't have time for actual debate so I'm just asking.

Panne and Stahl each have one great class.

Edited May 26, 2013 by bearclaw13

[ZemZem]

Stahl's fine the way he is, but wyvern rider would've been a cool option instead of archer. ;/

Agreed on how they're both great units.

[OrangeCrush980]

Does penalizing someone just for having Archer in their class set really make sense? In a normal playthrough you're only going to get to 20(u)/15(P)/5(P) or 10(u)/10(u)/15(P) or something like that so as long as you have 2 good class lines it doesn't really matter what the third is.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Agreed

I don't like that Stahl did not have a flying or another mounted reclass, by penalizing for having Archer is stupid when you don't need to become one in the first place(see: Virion)

[Sweq32]

Everyone who gets Archer basically get gimped because Archer sucks when it comes to skillset, to be honest.

"Ricken has only one class set based around magic: the Mage set."

Skills > Class

A good example would be Libra vs Tharja. Libra is worse than Tharja as a Dark Mage. Why? Because tharja has Knight.

Well, when talking about Sorcerer, there really isn't much to say because the class is so freaking broken that nearly anyone can be a good one.

Also, skills do matter, don't get me wrong. However, if a character lacks a class highly renowned for its overall greatness, then the chances are high that they won't see as much use as someone with said classes.

As an example, let's take Say'ri and Cordelia. Both have access to Galeforce, so there's that. However, one thing Cordelia lacks that would easily put her up there with Say'ri: the Assassin class. Now you're probably thinking "What's he talking about? Assassin is awful!". Well, it turns out that besides being the fastest class in the game with a Base Cap of 46 Spd, they also are not too weak in Strength. Their defense issue is rarely a problem because the character will likely dodge most of the attacks anyway and if Defense does appear to be a problem, the issue can be resolved by using Pair Up bonuses to your advantage.

tl;dr Classes are just as important as skills when you think of overall ending potential.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Sweq32

[Randa]

Yeah the only issue with Say'ri is join time which makes Cordelia better in efficiency play.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Nope, not buying it

In term of min maxing

Mods: Say'ri has higher speed? Say'ri wins

Class: Mercenary and Sorcerer. Cordelia wins. Both lacked Lun last I checked

Supports: both can take MU, Say supported Tiki, Cordelia supported Panne and Sumia

So, Cordelia gets a support from the best gen 1 that is not MU

Cordelia wins

[Sweq32]

Yeah the only issue with Say'ri is join time which makes Cordelia better in efficiency play.

Granted, that's a reasonable counter argument. Although, in terms of a grinded run (which I am guilty of doing every time), Say'ri will end up being better if the time is put into her. This also applies to Priam, Aversa, and Yen'fay, if you have the patience to train them by the time they join (although I know many people already have their end-game team by the time those six become available.

Nope, not buying it

In term of min maxing

Mods: Say'ri has higher speed? Say'ri wins

Class: Mercenary and Sorcerer. Cordelia wins. Both lacked Lun last I checked

Supports: both can take MU, Say supported Tiki, Cordelia supported Panne and Sumia

So, Cordelia gets a support from the best gen 1 that is not MU

Cordelia wins

Right, if there's one thing that Cordelia does have, its Sol. I still think Skills and Class options go hand-in-hand, and that having bad skill choices works terribly even if the class selection is good, and vice versa.

P.S. I wasn't really arguing that Say'ri was better, just that Assassin was a handy deal that Cordelia lacks.

P.S.S. Sorry for double posting.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

That's True but the way it works getting good skill set ups almost always come with good class, as sad as that sounds

Luna and DG+ - comes with Cavs or Knight. Knights are worse since they lacked Paladin, but Knight access in this game is reltively rare, coming from 2 no offspring character, and Kellam, Fred, Tharja, and finally Vaike can pass it for females. Kjelle also has Knight acess.

Vantage - comes with Assassin

AT Sol - come With Heroes

Galeforce - Dark Flier

Etc

So yeah

[Sweq32]

That's True but the way it works getting good skill set ups almost always come with good class, as sad as that sounds

Luna and DG+ - comes with Cavs or Knight. Knights are worse since they lacked Paladin, but Knight access in this game is reltively rare, coming from 2 no offspring character, and Kellam, Fred, Tharja, and finally Vaike can pass it for females. Kjelle also has Knight acess.

Vantage - comes with Assassin

AT Sol - come With Heroes

Galeforce - Dark Flier

Etc

So yeah

I might be straying off-topic a bit, but I have to say that Great Knight is actually not a very good class. The skills are fine (although there's probably no reason to use Luna considering that many other activation skills are more useful, such as Sol, Astra, Lethality, etc.) but the class itself doesn't compare to Paladin in terms of overall caps. I suppose the main problem is that Great Knight is basically a mounted General without the great stat caps. Granted, Generals are slow and have bad Movement, but they're tanks, and meant only to serve as choke point holders.

Then again, General and Great Knight both fail in comparison to Sorcerers, as they are better tanks with Nosferatu and access to Vengeance to keep them at full HP. It's a shame too, because General is a cool class, and Great Knight could have been pretty neat. I agree with everything else you said though.

[Randa]

Actually though lethality has a better effect its activation rate sucks. Not only that but a Luna, Astra, sol, rightful king,

Limit break inigo trivializes lethality.

[Sweq32]

Actually though lethality has a better effect its activation rate sucks. Not only that but a Luna, Astra, sol, rightful king,

Limit break inigo trivializes lethality.

Why would you want to have more than one combat acitvation skill at once? Sol is the only activation skill there that you actually need. I don't understand why anyone would put more than one activation skill on a unit, but that's probably just because I don't understand how activation rates work for the most part.

[Randa]

It's so that you always have at least one skill activate to maximize damage potential.

[Sweq32]

It's so that you always have at least one skill activate to maximize damage potential.

Explain to me how that works, if you could, because Luna, Sol, and Astra all use the same stat to factor in the activation (Skill%), so I don't see how that increases how often skills activate. it would seem like Luna and Astra would get in the way of Sol more often than actually helping, to me.

[Randa]

The following are the priority of the activation rate skills.

Lethality (Skl/4)

Aether (Skl/2)

Astra (Skl/2)

Sol (Skl)

Luna (Skl)

Ignis (Skl)

Vengeance (Skl*2)

Lets use the afore mentioned inigo as an example.

61 skill

So Astra has a 30% trigger rate plus 10% from rightful king.

This means that of the 70% chance that Astra doesn't trigger there is a 61% of activating or 42 percent of the time which ultimately comes out to 52.

After that in the 38% chance that neither of them activates there is another 61% chance of Luna triggering or 23% of the time ultimately 33% of the time.

Combine all of the above we a total activation rate of 125% chance of a skill activating. This is a huge jump from the 71% chance if its just sol.

Ultimately the point of this was to say the more useful classes the better the unit so archer is kind of a negative.

[Rewjeo]

Wait, 125%? That should be 95%. (1-.4)*(1-.71)*(1-.71)=~.05, or ~5% of not activating a skill.

[Randa]

I think I might have added rightful king twice.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I might be straying off-topic a bit, but I have to say that Great Knight is actually not a very good class. The skills are fine (although there's probably no reason to use Luna considering that many other activation skills are more useful, such as Sol, Astra, Lethality, etc.) but the class itself doesn't compare to Paladin in terms of overall caps. I suppose the main problem is that Great Knight is basically a mounted General without the great stat caps. Granted, Generals are slow and have bad Movement, but they're tanks, and meant only to serve as choke point holders.

Heh. "Knights are worse since they lacked Paladin"

Then again, General and Great Knight both fail in comparison to Sorcerers, as they are better tanks with Nosferatu and access to Vengeance to keep them at full HP. It's a shame too, because General is a cool class, and Great Knight could have been pretty neat. I agree with everything else you said though.

The only good general is like Inigo and Kjelle and thats only with Vaike/Gregor/Donnel and Frederick as a father(Fred for Inigo, Vaike/Gregor/Donnel for Kjelle). Showing how troublesome Knights really are. Oh, and Flavia

[shadykid]

and stacking multiple offensive skills is hilariously wasteful because some of them won't proc as much as they should

also Ricken and Virion can kill wyverns at near base levels while Donnel can't without massive favoritism, come at me bro

[Da Bear]

and stacking multiple offensive skills is hilariously wasteful because some of them won't proc as much as they should

also Ricken and Virion can kill wyverns at near base levels while Donnel can't without massive favoritism, come at me bro

Umm. Maybe include in your statement that they both die in 2 hits... which is pretty similar to Donnel.