LTC

[Espinosa]

YouTube playlist:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbSv8zSDR9c2KvWVNrNjRGE0xV-9NeBcz

Trying to see what a full-fledged LTC run in this game would be like and measure the contributions of specific characters to the art of shaving off turns.

Still wondering what my first (and second I guess) recruit at Verje should be. Lee is basically Plum's Defence staff donour and can contribute to reliability/Runan's durability while also having good ranged combat earlygame (and beyond if given Sylpheed) and bringing more infinite range healing to the party. Narron is the best permanent combat unit in the game, and I'm curious if he really does shave any turns off (I think he might only make a difference in map 13). I want to test these two as LTC units, but have no clue with whom to start.

There's also Lionel who you might opt against hiring if you choose Lee first (no reason to get Lee late if the first pick is Narron), whose main boon is being a competent foot unit (but there are others...) as well Life or Death. Access to three melee weapon types when promoted and Nihil are obviously also important, but less so.

I set up a poll to help me decide.

Rules

- Character recruitment
Can be skipped if characters do not pay back the turns they demand for recruitment. The extent this applies to a character like Rishuel is debatable and dubious, and will be established once we've gone far enough.

- Random battles
There are some you HAVE to fight and since it's rather silly to demand that those are low-turned as well (they're different each time you load your save I believe, plus they don't appear in the final turncount), it is okay to field some low-levelled units so that they can catch up in levels. Nothing game-breaking really, as I think anyone who has played this game can agree with. No more randoms can be fought than is compulsory however (now that COULD potentially break the game).

- Krisheenu glitch
The infamous Krisheenu glitch to multiply items is banned, period,

- RNG abuse
The RNG resets everytime you load your save and this is precisely what I'll be doing everytime I restart the map (so that I don't memorise a string of commands that results in Lionel maxing movement or anything of that kind). This isn't GBA so reliability takes precedence over absolute lowest turns; however, reliability is still a relative factor.

Turn counts

C1 6
C2 9
C3 5
C4 11
C5 3
C6 3
C7 6
C8 10
C9 5
C10 7
C11 0
C12 3
C13 2
C14 5
C15 2
C16 10
C17 5
C18 4
C19 2
C20 4
C21 6
C22 2

Promotions

7 Narron
9 Sasha
10 Raffin
14 Vega
16 Lionel
20 Shigen
20 Sun

Stat boosters

1 WLv Plus Yuni
2 MHP Plus hoarding
3 Super Proof hoarding
3 LUK Plus sold
8 AGI Plus hoarding
14 SKL Plus hoarding
14 POW Plus Yuni
14 MAG Plus hoarding
14 WLv Plus hoarding
17 SKL Plus hoarding
20 WLv Plus hoarding

Skills

3 Sea Fighter Runan
3 Re-Move Zeek
7 Arena Fighter Vega
15 Frontier Fighter Holmes
15 Frontier Fighter Yuni
20 Frontier Fighter Plum
20 Plains Fighter Plum

And here's the first video.

Chapter 1 in 6 turns.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Espinosa

[Espinosa]

Added an option about a flier.

Cleared map 2 with Narron as my first pick. He only levelled up twice, with +skl/HP level-ups each time. Not good for a map with meek enemies and 9 turns of combat (okay actually like 6 or 7). Everyone got skill and HP on that attempt it seems, lol. Runan and Raffin had good defensive level-ups though, which is good for rushing, so I'll think if I should keep this attempt.

Runan dying in LTC is a big pain in the arse from my previous LTC run iirc, and he runs out of shields really quickly too. Going to miss Lee and the Defence staff.

[Espinosa]

Wanted to try training Sasha for LTC to see if her supports and Elite make her comparable to Mahter (the more efficient choice obviously, and a pretty competent combat unit after a quick WLV+ investment), but right now I'm not even sure if she can receive the Pegasus Flute in a 3-turn clear of map 6. If she doesn't, I won't be training Sasha.

Just looking at the map, Mel arrives on turn 2 pretty close to the eastern island, so if I put Sasha on the easternmost spot there (with some competent combat units to take care of the enemies 2HKOing Sasha), and Mel goes in her direction, dismounting, then I just might reach her on turn 3, but I don't know.

Probably a gimmick but I like taking an idea like that and proving to myself it saves turns (like training Eliwood and Rath in FE7 HHM LTC).

Also just realised that the cost of not recruiting Roger is the loss of the Magic staff. That's kind of a big deal. So far it seems that two characters are questionable in terms of their recruitment saving the turns it costs - Rishuel (donour of Aura Rain and your best mage for combat) and Roger (responsible for the Magic staff and he's pretty swell for early to mid game fighting too I guess).

[SRC]

Yeah, Sasha seems extremely iffy to me. Can she even reach level 10 as a princess to get elite at a reasonable time? Narron still takes a few maps to reach level 10, and that's with higher stats, movement, AND with elite. I see the upside to using her, but I don't understand how she would fit in a ltc run unless I am totally missing something.

On the other hand, it's not the craziest thing I've ever heard. I thought I remembered someone out there abused Lina's 10% movement growth to shave a few turns. Now that's strategy!

[Espinosa]

If we can get the flute without losing a turn, 'reasonable time' is any time, really. She can be fed kills whenever (Narron isn't exactly dying to promote ASAP because Raffin and Zeek are around) and use the flute once she gets Elite. Mummy kills on Holmes's route should get her there easily.

Her use in LTC is that of a quickly growing flier, after some time of babying, and besides accelerated growth with Elite, she also has Charisma and better supports when Mahter has Earth Saint (and is more low-maintenance).

Swords' unconventionally low hit rates in this game make Sasha a bit of a PITA to train, but it's nothing luck-reliant - she just fights and gains levels when she can.

[BrightBow]

Sasha doesn't actually need to delay her promotion in order to get Elite... unless a particularly wired bug of the translation patch allowed her to get it as a Pegasus on my file.

Edited May 29, 2013 by BrightBow

[Espinosa]

Hmmm... All the English-language guides I checked say it's learnt as Princess specifically. If she could start training as a Peg and promote without waiting, that would make her superior to Mahter probably. Are you absolutely sure? I'll see if I can make any sense out of some foreign language guides with Google translate, to see if they say the same thing.

On that note, chapter 3 can be a bitch to 5-turn.

[BrightBow]

Hmmm... All the English-language guides I checked say it's learnt as Princess specifically. If she could start training as a Peg and promote without waiting, that would make her superior to Mahter probably. Are you absolutely sure? I'll see if I can make any sense out of some foreign language guides with Google translate, to see if they say the same thing.

On that note, chapter 3 can be a bitch to 5-turn.

Yes, I am.

It took me ages to get her to level 10 even after promoting her. She was probably not higher then level 3 or 4 when she promoted.

Edited May 29, 2013 by BrightBow

[Espinosa]

Was she able to get Gale as a Pegasus Knight as well? Because I kinda want that as well.

Here's base (lv. 3) Mahter vs. instapromoted Sasha:

hp: 22 vs 23

str: 6 vs 5

skl: 7 vs 5

agi: 11 vs 10

def: 4 vs 3

mag: 8 vs 8

luck: 5 vs 6

wlv: 5 vs 4

1-point differences all over the board, though str/agi can make a big deal because I remember Mahter being borderline on doubling and 2HKOing enemies early on with very specific weapons (I love to give her WLV Plus). Can't imagine Sasha being much different, and once she has Elite, she really gets going, kinda like Narron, Sun or (meh) Rennie (though I believe Aquilae actually capped her level in his LTC run somehow, because of the Morse Tower I believe).

Sasha got 30 exp in map 1 for me, but it is occasionally possible to get her one level-up in a 6-turn if Kate leaves the first Cav attacking the party at 1 HP (occasionally happens but she prefers to crit him with the Estoc instead) and she can then steal Runan's archer kill for a level-up. If she can get wings without losing any of her skills, well... I've babied Mahter in LTC context before and Sasha can't be much (any?) different.

[Espinosa]

Chapter 2 in 9 turns.

Narron, stop missing, can't you see I'm trying to train you =( Well, doesn't take that long to get to lv. 10 anyway.

[Espinosa]

So I was just doing chapter 5 and watching the NPC wind mages attack the dark knights and shamans and then guess what happens? This thing drops after Zeek kills a fellow DK with a Hand Lance I passed to him:

Dragon Lance

20 Mt

80 Hit

13 Wt

15 WLv

30 WHP

effective against monsters (that means 60 effective Mt O_0)

Can't remember ever being in possession of this toy, nor has anything ever been dropped by that DK on any previous resets or every in my experience.

I tried resetting some more and every time the DKs are just equipped with plain regular Devil Spears... How lucky huh.

Wonder if such a thing as "rare drops" is present anywhere else in the game.

[SRC]

If we can get the flute without losing a turn, 'reasonable time' is any time, really. She can be fed kills whenever (Narron isn't exactly dying to promote ASAP because Raffin and Zeek are around) and use the flute once she gets Elite. Mummy kills on Holmes's route should get her there easily.

Her use in LTC is that of a quickly growing flier, after some time of babying, and besides accelerated growth with Elite, she also has Charisma and better supports when Mahter has Earth Saint (and is more low-maintenance).

Swords' unconventionally low hit rates in this game make Sasha a bit of a PITA to train, but it's nothing luck-reliant - she just fights and gains levels when she can.

Well, I was just using Narron as a point of comparison. :P I guess the game is long enough to where Sasha is in no hurry to level, but I just don't see how level 10 Princess would be feasible without spending turns. Even in the mummy map, her low movement would lag the team down.

If she is able to learn elite as a pegasus (which I didn't realize that was possible), that completely changes things. Elite is obviously insane, even with that sketchy strength growth. That alone should give her a shot. Charisma and supports are a nice bonus, too, I guess.

Edited May 29, 2013 by SRC

[Icon of Sin]

So I was just doing chapter 5 and watching the NPC wind mages attack the dark knights and shamans and then guess what happens? This thing drops after Zeek kills a fellow DK with a Hand Lance I passed to him:

Dragon Lance

20 Mt

80 Hit

13 Wt

15 WLv

30 WHP

effective against monsters (that means 60 effective Mt O_0)

Can't remember ever being in possession of this toy, nor has anything ever been dropped by that DK on any previous resets or every in my experience.

I tried resetting some more and every time the DKs are just equipped with plain regular Devil Spears... How lucky huh.

Wonder if such a thing as "rare drops" is present anywhere else in the game.

They're usually a monster only thing.

I don't think you can even get this weapon normally. It's used only by Shion and he doesn't drop it, though I guess you could get it through Maerhen or something. You get a Luna Sword instead when you complete that chapter.

Maybe the patch did something weird.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Doga Blockovich

[Espinosa]

tbqh, 20% and 25% growths in strength aren't a whole lot different, but sped up experience gain is kind of a big deal (and is the primary reason Narron never gets obsolete post-promo). Sasha doesn't have to follow 8 move units at all; she can go somewhere else or get fed some kills, namely the mummies (Holmes' route is also a good opportunity).

I do think around chapter 30 everybody should about reach their max potential, because that's when the warpskipping (either of yourself or others) starts, but without stat booster duping I think a certain Witch is unlikely to reach her full potential.

So I checked the Peg Sasha's learnset as a promoted unit by using the Peg Flute on her in chapter 3 then arena grinding her in the next chapter until lv. 10... She learnt neither Gale, nor Elite. So yeah, you got something wrong dude.

I also have an odd feeling that what happened wasn't supposed to happen at all.

However, it also seems that I will have to restart chapter 5 because -I think- Zeek needs Re-Move urgently to canto after killing a dude in chapter 6 so that a 3-turn is possible. Just my idea, not sure if a 3-turn is actually possible on that map. I guess this also means I'll lose that Dragon Spear but it was probably also not meant to be either.

[SRC]

Mmm, I was mostly thinking of the wealth of mummies that appear in the encounter after Sun and Frau join up with you. I remember there are a few around, like in chapter 8, but they aren't really a solution by themselves. But meh, I think you'll figure out a way to get her to 10 anyway. :P Once she gets the elite+tome engine rolling, I'm sure she'll quickly become a powerhouse.

I am a bit biased towards Martel in general because she seems more practical, but I guess if you're wanting a VERY high stat flyer, she isn't really what you're looking for.

[Espinosa]

Anybody know if Life or Death crit ratio is generated right before you're about to launch an attack (like FE9/10 Resolve and other similar skills) or at the start of the battle? I'm thinking if Zeek should attack the boss on player phase or instead wait out for an enemy phase counter after hopefully getting whacked real good by the boss's claymore.

Didn't buy a Hammer earlier (because I'm lacking when it comes to proficient axe users until Lionel promotes) but Zeek wouldn't double with it anyway, and PP + EP chip is impossible because the Bishop heals the boss when he loses HP (not even a lot of it either).

[Espinosa]

So my 3-turn idea of chapter 6 was a success, though Narron will have to wait until next map to promote (he reached lv. 10 on the last turn). Zeek had like 80% crit on the boss, and that's before the boss's counterattack reduced him to 1 HP...

Mahter's first level-up had her grow strength (nice surprise) while Sasha didn't get any kills in that map even though I had intended to feed her two (some things happened differently and she got none), though she did get the Peg Flute. I think the game has decided for me that Mahter will be the second flier on this runthrough.

I guess Sasha can still promote next chapter for the novelty of having two earlygame fliers alone, for what it's worth.

[Espinosa]

Updated the OP with the turn counts thus far and other information of interest.

Currently thinking with whom I should send Narron and Zeek. Runan's route after the first split has mainly one tough map, and that's map 18 (Barbarossa). Can probably be done in minimum turns with lots of good shields on Runan + just one of Zeek/Narron rushing in. Raffin won't do because he's arrow-weak/takes penalties to stats when dismounting. Holmes's map has maps 16 and 21 (Opuses and the dragon) that pose the greatest difficulty and a challenge to turn counts. I'm thinking I could separate Narron and Zeek, and that would be the best idea.

Using Narron with Runan means Zeek can be safely switched out / his use minimised so that he is easier to kill with Sierra/whoever when he returns as an enemy. I'm planning to pump Sierra with stat boosters later on, so I don't know how necessary that will be. Zeek does grow as fast as lightning with Elite and growths that wouldn't be out of place in New Mystery/Awakening. Narron soloing Runan's maps also means good training for him. Narron together with Holmes means Vega, Shigen, Lionel and whoever else lose out on some of the experience in Holmes's chapters because Narron doesn't like sharing exp by one-rounding everything in sight (his Pilium hit rates can be shaky though).

Overall, I think maps 16/21 are a bigger deal than anything on Runan's path and demand at least one of Narron/Zeek.

[dondon151]

i thought you 6 turned chapter 1 ._.

[Non-Existent Member]

They're usually a monster only thing.

I don't think you can even get this weapon normally. It's used only by Shion and he doesn't drop it, though I guess you could get it through Maerhen or something. You get a Luna Sword instead when you complete that chapter.

Maybe the patch did something weird.

enemy Dark Knights do drop the Dragon Lance, the footed ones, that is. I got it a few times when I played it on a console.

I also got the Luna Sword from the mounted Dark Knight when I was training Roger in the arena battles.

[Espinosa]

I had to restart and lose the spear because Zeek needed a Re-Move scroll before chapter 6 to shave off one turn there.

As of map 8, Raffin already has the weapon level to equip the spear... if I still had it. I think I can go without it, though, and I wouldn't want to base an efficiency run on something with such unlikely odds of success.

i thought you 6 turned chapter 1 ._.

Whoops gotcha, fixed that. A 5-turn of chapter 1 would be nice, but even if you did some sort of rigging, you wouldn't be able to engage the boss until turn 6.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Espinosa

[MacLovin]

weapon drops will happen, iirc it's a really low shot though.

[Refa]

Just wanted to say that I'm watching this run pretty closely. I've never played Tiering (...best typo?) Saga before.

Also this game has the best character portraits. The battle animations look really clunky and kind of ugly though (the in battle ones, I mean).

[Espinosa]

Just tried using Plum as a Proto-Ilyana by attempting to pass the Dragon Flute Runan's party purchases to Holmes's team. Didn't work - the flute disappeared. Good thing I know this now, as I asked this question on this forum a year or two ago and the response wasn't very certain. So Mahter won't be able to promote until chapter 24 earliest (as I sent her with Holmes) - too bad as I wanted her combat stats to look better for chapter 21.

Sent Narron with Runan (for training) and Zeek with Holmes. This way I can try sacrificing Zeek to the dragon so that Holmes can open the chests without any interruption (if necessary) since he returns as an enemy later on anyway. I considered using Hammer!Zeek for Zachariah, but I think I can 2-turn his map easily without Zeek - just need to dance a promoted Swordmaster on turn 2. Let's see how that goes; so far I'm at chapter 10, had to restart because I realised I didn't have any characters in Holmes's party that would enable Lionel's recruitment, so I sent Kate and Estelle.

Also apparently Mel leaves if Roger isn't recruited, so my only mounted healer is forever gone. :( It took me two maps to notice too (as I wasn't fielding her), so she left off with one of my Healing staves. So choosing to not recruit Roger results not only in the loss of Roger and the Magic staff (potentially turn-saving) but also Mel. This decision alone shaves off 4 turns though.

[Espinosa]

Anybody know how likely I would be to find a Witch wielding a Death tome in one of the "random" (mandatory but not storyline/numbered) encounters in the caves prior to the second split? Or at least where I should save so that I can reset until I get one on a map.

The reason I'm asking is because I can neither bolster Sierra's magic with a Magic staff later on, nor can I duplicate stat boosters to cap her magic, skill and speed stats, so if I want to 1-turn any bosskill maps, I either have to have a tome with some decent crit (Death is tied with Wundergust for the highest crit @ 20, and Maruju doesn't Warp) or, if that fails to succeed (e.g. I get something like 35% hit, 2% crit displayed against a boss and cannot double), come up with an alternative strategy that takes more turns.

I could've sworn there was a possibility of running into a Witch like that, because I once had to go back several maps as I neglected to save and a Witch critted Barts.

Since I get Maerhen and money is such a problem (when many expensive things contribute directly to turn counts), I've been thinking about ways of using the Mug ability to steal some items I'd rather not waste money on buying. Maerhen actually has one of the highest Strength bases in the game and is only one WLV point away from Killing Edge access, but with a 5% growth he's not getting there ever. Obviously his other skill fucks things up, but I think one can work around it and reap the benefits.