Why is LTC hated?

[Loki Laufeyson]

I liked the redone dialogue much more. :\

Ewwwww gross.

Xin, thats basically why i dont do tier lists. I dont usually play LTC so im not gonna be arguing about who is best besides the obvious Seth/Marcus/Titania answer.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Florina Stark

[Snowy_One]

It's not that I can't accept LTC as a playstyle. I understand people wanting to play for it. I can't accept it as THE tiering style though. It's not what a tier should reflect, especially since it requires players to learn the specific strategies to make it work as a list. I would sooner abandon tiering all together than accept a LTC tier list. And, seeing as I have stayed away from the tier lists for the most part, that is indeed happened.

[MacLovin]

Because it's a reasonable method?

[Snowy_One]

It's not reasonable though. It rewards players who overload on high-movement units and play to clear chapters as fast as possible and, without a pre-planned and limited strategy, is near useless. That's not what a tier list should ever be.

[Refa]

It's not reasonable though. It rewards players who overload on high-movement units and play to clear chapters as fast as possible and, without a pre-planned and limited strategy, is near useless. That's not what a tier list should ever be.

why not

[MacLovin]

uh, pretty sure mounts being able to facerape things mean that they're good

of course LTC requires planning, why not? If folks are patient enough, then the reward is satisfying enough.

[Baldrick]

I think the point is, if you can clear a chapter in 3 turns with Florina, but you have you think carefully about it, move her in a certain way, and possibly rig some misses so she doesn't get killed, or you can smash through the enemies with Oswin, but it takes you 6 turns to do it because he's so slow, the tier lists would consider Florina a better unit, but isn't the opposite true?

(Ignore the fact that Marcus is the best of both worlds for the purposes of this discussion)

[Florete]

It's not reasonable though. It rewards players who overload on high-movement units and play to clear chapters as fast as possible and, without a pre-planned and limited strategy, is near useless. That's not what a tier list should ever be.

Snowy, what the hell am I going to do with you? I've literally never met a person so unable to grasp the logic we use and continue to misrepresent what we do. No tier list (except Olwen/Chiki's) relies on pre-planned strategies, but even if it did, calling it "limited strategy" is simply dumb because it obviously means significant strategy went into developing it.

I'm not even going to talk about "high-movement units" because it's clear by this point that Titania killed your unborn child.

I'm also not going to ask what you think a tier list should be because history has proven that gets us nowhere as you never really know what you're talking about. I will only say that a significant group of thinking people came up and agreed with this method and if you want to just sit there with your ears plugged singing to yourself wondering why the rest of the world continues to use such flawed logic, please at least leave us alone.

Ahem...like others have said, most people don't hate the idea of LTC, they hate the elitism that can come with it. Now I always have and still do believe that much of this supposed elitism doesn't actually exist and is the result of people being too sensitive and not actually considering where LTCers are coming from, but there have been some recent examples that may make a few complaints warranted. Even so, though, most of the LTC discussion stays in LTC-specific threads, and in those cases, there is no excuse for complaining.

And I've never seen any LTCer, even the more elitist of them, insinuate that casual play is somehow "invalidated" or something by LTC, or that those who only play casually are "inferior". Most LTCers enjoy casual play just as much as LTC, if not more.

[Snowy_One]

I think the point is, if you can clear a chapter in 3 turns with Florina, but you have you think carefully about it, move her in a certain way, and possibly rig some misses so she doesn't get killed, or you can smash through the enemies with Oswin, but it takes you 6 turns to do it because he's so slow, the tier lists would consider Florina a better unit, but isn't the opposite true?

(Ignore the fact that Marcus is the best of both worlds for the purposes of this discussion)

Pretty much this. And before you say it, yes, this happens in the current tier lists a LOT. FE9 Marcia's placement would be the first example that comes to mind. She's not a 'bad' unit, but her ranking is determined pretty much soley by her rescue-dropping.

Snowy, what the hell am I going to do with you? I've literally never met a person so unable to grasp the logic we use and continue to misrepresent what we do. No tier list (except Olwen/Chiki's) relies on pre-planned strategies, but even if it did, calling it "limited strategy" is simply dumb because it obviously means significant strategy went into developing it.

I'm not even going to talk about "high-movement units" because it's clear by this point that Titania killed your unborn child.

I'm also not going to ask what you think a tier list should be because history has proven that gets us nowhere as you never really know what you're talking about. I will only say that a significant group of thinking people came up and agreed with this method and if you want to just sit there with your ears plugged singing to yourself wondering why the rest of the world continues to use such flawed logic, please at least leave us alone.

Ahem...like others have said, most people don't hate the idea of LTC, they hate the elitism that can come with it. Now I always have and still do believe that much of this supposed elitism doesn't actually exist and is the result of people being too sensitive and not actually considering where LTCers are coming from, but there have been some recent examples that may make a few complaints warranted. Even so, though, most of the LTC discussion stays in LTC-specific threads, and in those cases, there is no excuse for complaining.

And I've never seen any LTCer, even the more elitist of them, insinuate that casual play is somehow "invalidated" or something by LTC, or that those who only play casually are "inferior". Most LTCers enjoy casual play just as much as LTC, if not more.

You say that significant planning went into developing a strategy and then don't see how it's limited? How is someone going to figure out that a unit has to be deployed in X-way and move in Y manner to be good when it took a whole board to figure that out in the first place?

For someone with a Sayaka/Kyoko pic in their sig, I'm surprised you are also baffled by the mentality going into these prolonged fights, especially since I have a Sayaka pic as my profile pic ATM.

[Baldrick]

And I've never seen any LTCer, even the more elitist of them, insinuate that casual play is somehow "invalidated" or something by LTC, or that those who only play casually are "inferior". Most LTCers enjoy casual play just as much as LTC, if not more.

I have seen comparisons of LTC play to the 100-metre dash. But perhaps I'm reading too much into it and the commenters don't mean to insinuate that LTC should have the same reputation as the 100 metres does.

[FrostyFireMage]

Most LTC players annoy me because many of them think they're hot shit and tactical geniuses for overusing the Jeigan/prepromotes.

[Ema Skye]

You say that significant planning went into developing a strategy and then don't see how it's limited? How is someone going to figure out that a unit has to be deployed in X-way and move in Y manner to be good when it took a whole board to figure that out in the first place?

For someone with a Sayaka/Kyoko pic in their sig, I'm surprised you are also baffled by the mentality going into these prolonged fights, especially since I have a Sayaka pic as my profile pic ATM.

At this point, you've moved on from efficiency tiers to LTC tiers, again. Any tier list, with the exception of Aeine/Chiki/Olwen's, assumes that we aren't going for minimum turns, but moreso acceptable turns per map (maybe they slow down to get some more EXP for their units, or to get some resources that a LTC player would skip). There's no "one way to do each map" in efficiency. You're confusing the playstyles Snowy.

[-Cynthia-]

Pretty much this. And before you say it, yes, this happens in the current tier lists a LOT. FE9 Marcia's placement would be the first example that comes to mind. She's not a 'bad' unit, but her ranking is determined pretty much soley by her rescue-dropping.

It really isn't in many cases actually. In Chapter 12 of PoR for instance, no rescue dropping involving Marcia occurs at all really. She's just the only one who can reach the ravens before they reach the ship and it's trivial to make her combat against the ravens spectacular with the use of BEXP. We could also make a number of other units spectacular with the BEXP- Mia, Nephenee, Boyd whoever- but they just do the same thing as Marcia with less movement by that point.

Basically, if Marcia couldn't get very good combat she'd be significantly lower.

[Snowy_One]

It really isn't in many cases actually. In Chapter 12 of PoR for instance, no rescue dropping involving Marcia occurs at all really. She's just the only one who can reach the ravens before they reach the ship and it's trivial to make her combat against the ravens spectacular with the use of BEXP. We could also make a number of other units spectacular with the BEXP- Mia, Nephenee, Boyd whoever- but they just do the same thing as Marcia with less movement by that point.

Basically, if Marcia couldn't get very good combat she'd be significantly lower.

Firstly I'd be shocked if doing that didn't at least carry some risk as the Ravens can very easily hurt. Secondly, what if she doesn't get that BEXP? Thirdly, Marcia's a pretty average fighter on the whole who joins underleveled. She can make up for it with BEXP/EXP farming fine, but at best she's an average fighter. Despite this, she's the second-best character in the GAME, beating out units like Jill (also a flier and doesn't join as badly underleveled) and Astrid (who can get an easy large level-lead on the party) and are trying to tell me that this *isn't* because of tier lists focusing more on lower turn counts than unit power?

Want to tell me LTC isn't being used to determine tier lists? Fine. But if you do so, don't use LTC standards on tier lists.

At this point, you've moved on from efficiency tiers to LTC tiers, again. Any tier list, with the exception of Aeine/Chiki/Olwen's, assumes that we aren't going for minimum turns, but moreso acceptable turns per map (maybe they slow down to get some more EXP for their units, or to get some resources that a LTC player would skip). There's no "one way to do each map" in efficiency. You're confusing the playstyles Snowy.

Okay. Sure. Then what about when Marcia isn't given a load of BEXP or isn't rescue-dropping Ike? Especially in the chapters before Jill shows up? How does she stack up then?

[-Cynthia-]

Firstly I'd be shocked if doing that didn't at least carry some risk as the Ravens can very easily hurt. Secondly, what if she doesn't get that BEXP? Thirdly, Marcia's a pretty average fighter on the whole who joins underleveled. She can make up for it with BEXP/EXP farming fine, but at best she's an average fighter. Despite this, she's the second-best character in the GAME, beating out units like Jill (also a flier and doesn't join as badly underleveled) and Astrid (who can get an easy large level-lead on the party) and are trying to tell me that this *isn't* because of tier lists focusing more on lower turn counts than unit power?

With the resources we have available, we can get Marcia to be a unit with very high offensive and defensive parameters- enough to clear chapters reliably. And yes, tier lists favor units with good combat and have high Mov and fly over ones who have good combat and average/poor movement. Marcia is really only above Jill because Marcia has contributions before Jill joins, they're fairly equal after that (Jill's physical durability and attack is a little better, Marcia can double a few bosses and her better resistance helps at times, but they're largely the same).

FE9 is not a good game to be pulling utility vs. combat arguments on because making our mounted units extremely powerful is easy with how much BEXP we're given. Utility units are not always over combat units in tier lists, in FE6, Thany has pretty bad combat and is used primarily for rescue dropping purposes. She's under "good" combat units like Dieck and Rutger and above average ones like Lot and well above bad ones like Wolt.

[Espinosa]

If we didn't have access to BEXP in FE9, I'm sure some of the same units would still be on top (Marcia, Titania, the cavs).

[-Cynthia-]

If we didn't have access to BEXP in FE9, I'm sure some of the same units would still be on top (Marcia, Titania, the cavs).

Marcia would probably fall a few spots though, possibly below Oscar or something.

Part of why Marcia is so good is because PoR enemies are pretty bad and even average stats kill them and don't die pretty easily. Mounted units tend to excel in easier games.

[Snowy_One]

Thing is, I haven't played FE6, so I can't really say anything about it. Anyways, here's the problem I have with that. Oscar. He joins before Marcia, doesn't demand as much resources (certainly not as much as her as he can tap into earlier BEXP), has superior weapons, better supports, better stats, and aside from flight, is simply all-around better than Marcia. If Marcia was mounted (not even lower movement, just incapable of of flight, she wouldn't even have to keep an eye out for bows) she'd be below Oscar without a question. She's above him.

I understand that FE9 is a poor example due to mounted units being generally good in it, but even so, it should follow that units who join earlier and need less resources should be ranked higher even if combat is a non-issue. It doesn't follow. If it doesn't follow, something is up and, most likely, it's people trying to push LTC standards and playstyles onto a list that shouldn't have them (as this would explain how Marcia is ranked higher simply for having a pegasus instead of a normal horse).

[Espinosa]

Marcia would probably fall a few spots though, possibly below Oscar or something.

Part of why Marcia is so good is because PoR enemies are pretty bad and even average stats kill them and don't die pretty easily. Mounted units tend to excel in easier games.

Oscar would also fall in usefulness, I estimate. Titania not nearly as much. Exp distribution in rout maps would be more important than before (so you'd have less reasons to choke points with Shinon/Gatrie).

Thing is, I haven't played FE6, so I can't really say anything about it. Anyways, here's the problem I have with that. Oscar. He joins before Marcia, doesn't demand as much resources (certainly not as much as her as he can tap into earlier BEXP), has superior weapons, better supports, better stats, and aside from flight, is simply all-around better than Marcia. If Marcia was mounted (not even lower movement, just incapable of of flight, she wouldn't even have to keep an eye out for bows) she'd be below Oscar without a question. She's above him.

I understand that FE9 is a poor example due to mounted units being generally good in it, but even so, it should follow that units who join earlier and need less resources should be ranked higher even if combat is a non-issue. It doesn't follow. If it doesn't follow, something is up and, most likely, it's people trying to push LTC standards and playstyles onto a list that shouldn't have them (as this would explain how Marcia is ranked higher simply for having a pegasus instead of a normal horse).

Why is that a bad thing that flight makes Marcia better than all those other units who lack flight? It's just the reality of the game - wings give you unsurpassed movement in terrain (plentiful in this game), and Marcia is also easy to shove (easier than Jill and male Cavs), a Full Guard comes when you've only had to face enough bow users to count with the fingers of one hand, all of whom easily avoided or prevented (not that 2x effective damage hurts that badly), and you get a pair of Boots that is also best invested into a unit who flies. Finally, there's lack of Con penalty flying female units suffer from in other FE games.

Yes, flight with acceptable combat is the best kind of combat and the best kind of mobility type. Janaff and Ulki have flight but have less move, poorer stats, Laguz transformation, no 1-2 range outside of lolWind, so they lose to Marcia, Tanith and Jill who offer all of that.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Espinosa

[-Cynthia-]

Thing is, I haven't played FE6, so I can't really say anything about it. Anyways, here's the problem I have with that. Oscar. He joins before Marcia, doesn't demand as much resources (certainly not as much as her as he can tap into earlier BEXP), has superior weapons, better supports, better stats, and aside from flight, is simply all-around better than Marcia. If Marcia was mounted (not even lower movement, just incapable of of flight, she wouldn't even have to keep an eye out for bows) she'd be below Oscar without a question. She's above him.

I understand that FE9 is a poor example due to mounted units being generally good in it, but even so, it should follow that units who join earlier and need less resources should be ranked higher even if combat is a non-issue. It doesn't follow. If it doesn't follow, something is up and, most likely, it's people trying to push LTC standards and playstyles onto a list that shouldn't have them (as this would explain how Marcia is ranked higher simply for having a pegasus instead of a normal horse).

I think you're confusing 'LTC strats' with generally efficient play. Slogging through deserts at 2 Mov and waiting for every raven is casual play is not efficient if we have other options. LTC refers to very specific strategies involving specific units, which tend to invalidate any alternatives. For instance, dropping Jill down to a low tier simply because Marcia slightly outclasses her wouldn't be considering the alternative strategies Jill can do. Flight allows Marcia to do a lot of things Oscar can't, and we can easily make her combat good enough where his advantages don't matter much.

@Espinosa I'm sure we could go on at great length about the impacts of not using BEXP in FE9 :)

[MacLovin]

how about snowy stops using fe9/10 as examples since they've been done to death.

seriously, Florina is just like Marcia with average combat and all.

And yet she's probobly not the best unit in the game.

same with Nessie, Thany, and etc.

[dondon151]

Most LTC players annoy me because many of them think they're hot shit and tactical geniuses for overusing the Jeigan/prepromotes.

oh i guess there's also the stigma of abuse (as evident in this quoted post) that contributes to LTC being frowned upon, which utterly baffles me

[Espinosa]

how about snowy stops using fe9/10 as examples since they've been done to death.

seriously, Florina is just like Marcia with average combat and all.

And yet she's probobly not the best unit in the game.

same with Nessie, Thany, and etc.

Thany's contribution to cutting turns is pretty minimal, really. Vanessa does really good in drafts though.

[General Horace]

Most LTC players annoy me because many of them think they're hot shit and tactical geniuses for overusing the Jeigan/prepromotes.

there's a lot more people saying this than people who do play ltc saying doing whatever you want is horrible. It's comments like these that usually start the arguements between the divide anyway.

wrt to the topic, like someone said earlier not all people who ltc only play it, they probably play casually moreso than ltc in the first place, its just people only see the topics with their ltc runs, or hear them talking about it because that's what's happening on the forum. Nobody is going to make a topic about how they made Maribelle a pegasus knight or used Wil, Wallace and Rebecca in a run in fe7. I was going to say something else but I'm tired and forgetful so yeah. As for myself, I have ltc'd in the past and draft quite a bit, but if you look at my drafts they aren't exactly balls to the walls ltc's, I do stuff like use Olivia as a combat unit in a draft (which is a terrible idea) and such like that regardless, because its more fun to me that way.

Edited June 5, 2013 by General Horace

[eclipse]

there's a lot more people saying this than people who do play ltc saying doing whatever you want is horrible. It's comments like these that usually start the arguements between the divide anyway.

wrt to the topic, like someone said earlier not all people who ltc only play it, they probably play casually moreso than ltc in the first place, its just people only see the topics with their ltc runs, or hear them talking about it because that's what's happening on the forum. Nobody is going to make a topic about how they made Maribelle a pegasus knight or used Wil, Wallace and Rebecca in a run in fe7. I was going to say something else but I'm tired and forgetful so yeah.

I'm sure if someone wanted to do a really random run *coughbesidesmecough*, it would be welcome. Whether or not it's worth the effort to record it is another matter. Apparently those that do LTC runs are willing to put forth the effort.

Edited June 5, 2013 by eclipse