SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[The DanMan]

*says patches won't stop until game is "perfectly balanced"*

*adds Bayonetta*

*says no more patches*

I'm not sure if this is Sakurai's idea of a joke or what.

I mean, he added a combo-heavy character with four 0-death combos, left a bunch of other top tier combo-heavy characters untouched, and left the game with a notable bottom tier.

I mean, just what went through his mind?

[Anacybele]

Welp, there goes my hopes of Sheik and ZSS being nerfed... And Luigi being buffed.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Anacybele

[solrocknroll]

*says patches won't stop until game is "perfectly balanced"*

*adds Bayonetta*

*says no more patches*

I'm not sure if this is Sakurai's idea of a joke or what.

I mean, he added a combo-heavy character with four 0-death combos, left a bunch of other top tier combo-heavy characters untouched, and left the game with a notable bottom tier.

I mean, just what went through his mind?

Obviously there's nothing that can be done without ruining the top tiers. It wouldn't be fair to people who like them to have them neutered.

The bottom tiers have obvious fundamental flaws and no amount of buffs will save them. Might as well give up now. The only way Zelda will escape the bottom is by becoming HW Zelda with a rapier or something. She's a hot mess. Ganondorf is a slower Falcon, and as such he lacks the one thing Falcon's good at. Jigglypuff is so light and her ground game is nonexistent. All I ever see for ideas for Jigglypuff is a weight boost.

Bayonetta is perfect <3 and needs no balancing at all. I can't do any combos with her, so why see her nerfed? That wouldn't be very fair. Not to mention that even Sheik is more pleasant than 64 Pikachu, Melee Space Furries, Brawl Meta Knight, and pre-patch Diddy. I'd rather Sheik dominate the meta game than have people who actually like her have her nerfed to oblivion. Jigglypuff is a major example of this going from Melee to Brawl, and Kirby was ruined in Melee after success in 64.

Pikachu is the only character in the series to be consistently good. The rest of the original 12 has characters fluctuate like crazy. However, this game has pretty great balance. Zelda/Jiggs/Ganon/Mii as our shameful bottom tier is way better than Melee or Brawl's balance. Here, Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Cloud, Ryu, Pikachu, Mario, Villager, Meta Knight, Corrin(?), Marth, and Ness can all reach really high heights, and I'm fairly certain that there's more good stuff yet to be found. That's already better balance than most FGs.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ms. Andrews

[Anacybele]

I don't know much about Bayonetta at all, but just because you can't do combos doesn't mean other people can't. And several 0-death combos were found on her, which I think is unfair.

[solrocknroll]

I don't know much about Bayonetta at all, but just because you can't do combos doesn't mean other people can't. And several 0-death combos were found on her, which I think is unfair.

Yes, but as a result it isn't fair to nerf her into the ground when some people can't even do basic stuff. I believe that Smash should be balanced for the skill floor rather than the ceiling. I have no real desire to get better, but stuff like Brawl Jigglypuff shows exactly how nerfing a character can ruin them for even a casual player.

I never actually win, so it's great to have a character who clicks and is actually decent. I've stuck with Shulk for forever, but he's still kinda clunky even for me. Bayonetta and Cloud changed everything for me. I've also don't really like balanced stages and enjoy stuff like Umbra Clock Tower, Midgar, or Gaur Plain, but that's probably neither here nor there.

[Carmine Sword]

So much for my dream of Shulk getting better frame data eventually. RIP.

[Leif]

No more patches, eh?

Welp, I'm content that Villager is pretty much set in High tier now. I feel that as time goes on, Bayonetta will become dangerous. More players will get better with her and used to her combos. I've had someone try to set up a 0% death combo on me the other day (the one where they attempt to Witch Twist the victim up and past the upper boundary), but failed either due to a mistake on their part, me (somehow) using DI, or that Villager is a small character.

Bayonetta will be up there with ZSS and Sheik for sure.

Corrin is definitely high tier. He/She has to be solely for their incredible forward smash and crazy biting hand neutral B.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Leif

[Ema Skye]

I can see Bayonetta clocking into 3rd or 4th alongside Rosalina, depending on how much the Boost Kick nerf hurts ZSS (if it's enough to make her drop from 2nd). Bayo's flaws are very noticeable and people are already figuring out how to abuse Witch Time, so I don't think she's the best character in the game. She's got a lot in common with Rosalina though.

That said, people have found a guaranteed 0->death that works on all characters at all percent levels that can't be DI'ed out of. If Bayo players can get it to consistently work, she has a decent claim to 1st or 2nd.

[Refa]

Pikachu is the only character in the series to be consistently good.

Fox.

[Knife]

Obviously there's nothing that can be done without ruining the top tiers. It wouldn't be fair to people who like them to have them neutered.

The bottom tiers have obvious fundamental flaws and no amount of buffs will save them. Might as well give up now. The only way Zelda will escape the bottom is by becoming HW Zelda with a rapier or something. She's a hot mess. Ganondorf is a slower Falcon, and as such he lacks the one thing Falcon's good at. Jigglypuff is so light and her ground game is nonexistent. All I ever see for ideas for Jigglypuff is a weight boost.

Bayonetta is perfect <3 and needs no balancing at all. I can't do any combos with her

I was shaking my head yes until this part

[The DanMan]

Fox.

He was mid-tier in Brawl.

I can see Bayonetta clocking into 3rd or 4th alongside Rosalina, depending on how much the Boost Kick nerf hurts ZSS (if it's enough to make her drop from 2nd). Bayo's flaws are very noticeable and people are already figuring out how to abuse Witch Time, so I don't think she's the best character in the game. She's got a lot in common with Rosalina though.

That said, people have found a guaranteed 0->death that works on all characters at all percent levels that can't be DI'ed out of. If Bayo players can get it to consistently work, she has a decent claim to 1st or 2nd.

Witch Which makes it all the more confusing as to why now's the perfect time to fully disband the dev team.

You've got two new characters out there and one of them is blatantly better than the overwhelming majority of the cast with the tools arleady described, but they're not going to hang around and make another patch or two to balance things out?

[General Horace]

sakurai plz fix

[Ema Skye]

sakurai plz fix

That's not even the only Corrin glitch.

There's this one where he makes Wii Fit Trainer T-stance if he hits her trying to recover.

Which makes it all the more confusing as to why now's the perfect time to fully disband the dev team.

You've got two new characters out there and one of them is blatantly better than the overwhelming majority of the cast with the tools arleady described, but they're not going to hang around and make another patch or two to balance things out?

Bayonetta isn't even the only character to have a 0->death.

[The DanMan]

Bayonetta isn't even the only character to have a 0->death.

True. But she's got four of them, and it's not like they're as hard to pull off/luck dependent as Peach's, for instance.

I don't approve of 0-death combos at all; the headbanger is that a character's design allowed several of them to be found near-instantly, but they won't do anything about it.

Plus, the Corrin glitches mentioned above.

[NoNameAtAll]

The problem with fixing one issue is that two more issues will show up. The team needs to rest. It's just how it is.

Debugging 101.

[BrightBow]

And that glitch works on the 3DS version too.

Maybe we get another patch after all. They probably don't care much about balancing but I think so far they always removed gamebreaking bugs like this one. But it doesn't seem to be a bug that's easy to perform during an actual match, so who knows.

Edited February 9, 2016 by BrightBow

[Refa]

He was mid-tier in Brawl.

1) That doesn't make him not consistently good. Pikachu is mid tier in Melee.

2) Brawl's meta is so underdeveloped that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually better/worse than his position in the tier list.

[FrostyFireMage]

So once again Zelda and Ganondorf are totally bottom tier, thanks Sakurai

[Jotari]

The problem with fixing one issue is that two more issues will show up. The team needs to rest. It's just how it is.

Debugging 101.

It's true that patch up dates need to end sometime but immediately after releasing two characters who don't have the exposure to mass play that make update patches a necessity in the first place is not the right time.

[Jedi]

Witch Which makes it all the more confusing as to why now's the perfect time to fully disband the dev team.

You've got two new characters out there and one of them is blatantly better than the overwhelming majority of the cast with the tools arleady described, but they're not going to hang around and make another patch or two to balance things out?

How do you even know this considering Bayonetta has some clear issues? We don't even know if those 0 to death combos are even viable in Major tournaments.

[The DanMan]

How do you even know this considering Bayonetta has some clear issues? We don't even know if those 0 to death combos are even viable in Major tournaments.

In the end, I don't know this for sure; I'm just working off of impressions and what others have said. It may just be pointless hype, it may not; she definitely has potential.

But at the end of the day, I don't believe Bayonetta's 0-death combos (or any, for that matter) or Corrin's grab shenanigans were intentional, and stopping patch support right after releasing two DLC characters seems like a pretty dumb decision.

[Jedi]

In the end, I don't know this for sure; I'm just working off of impressions and what others have said. It may just be pointless hype, it may not; she definitely has potential.

But at the end of the day, I don't believe Bayonetta's 0-death combos (or any, for that matter) or Corrin's grab shenanigans were intentional, and stopping patch support right after releasing two DLC characters seems like a pretty dumb decision.

I think the 0 to deaths are intentional, as other characters clearly have them, the grabs you got me there.

And believe me I'm not too happy the patches are over either, characters like Shulk and Link, while capable in good hands, have some clear flaws they need fixed still among other characters, its a bit weird they'd stop now after finally fixing Marth and such.

I guess the low tier heroes have their work cut out for them, despite the balance of this game being the best in the series.

[Ema Skye]

characters like Shulk and Link, while capable in good hands, have some clear flaws they need fixed still among other characters, its a bit weird they'd stop now after finally fixing Marth and such.

This implies that they had flaws that need to be addressed or that Marth even needed to be fixed.

There are more ways to play this game than 1v1 and Sakurai has to balance knowing that. Yeah he's thrown us some bones like Luma getting doubled respawn time in 1.0.4 or the Luigi nerf. But as a whole we're a minority fanbase (remember the Smash polls that circulated around our sections of the fanbase that heralded Shovel Knight and K. Rool as the ballot winner. That should make it clear that we're honestly insignificant).

Guys like Shulk, Link, Dedede, Charizard and Ganondorf are low on the tier list because they suck at 1v1. But throw them into a free for all and their awful end lag doesn't matter because you can throw out 40 frame smashes with no care. There's guys like Sheik and Rosalina who suck at free for all but rock the 1v1 like nothing.

Zelda and Jiggs are the only guys that I really feel don't have an obvious place in any game style but that's due to their character design moreso than anything else that can be done balance-wise; I legitimately think both are unsalvagable. Palutena and Miis shoot up the list when customs get turned on and Sakurai balances if customs are on because people might play with them on.

[Refa]

its a bit weird they'd stop now after finally fixing Marth and such.

I wouldn't say they fixed Marth, they just made him more viable.

This implies that they had flaws that need to be addressed or that Marth even needed to be fixed.

Guys like Shulk, Link, Dedede, Charizard and Ganondorf are low on the tier list because they suck at 1v1. But throw them into a free for all and their awful end lag doesn't matter because you can throw out 40 frame smashes with no care. There's guys like Sheik and Rosalina who suck at free for all but rock the 1v1 like nothing.

People want Marth to be fixed so badly because the development team made him so god awful following two games wherein he was really good at doing what he did; buffing him was not something that was necessary in order to make the game a better overall product but it was kind of important for the people who played him in the past two games which a lot of them did (on account of him being really good and all). Marth was not particularly good in any context when the game first shipped, and while he's not the best now or comparable to his past self, at least he has some sort of niche to go off of.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Refa

[Jedi]

I wouldn't say they fixed Marth, they just made him more viable.

You're right, my broad overwording is gonna get me kicked someday lol.