Berserker and its unpromoted versions

[Espinosa]

I've been thinking about the existence of the Berserker class as available to the player and came to the conclusion that the job's terrain specifics haven't been put to good use in Fire Emblem - especially if we compare it to fliers.

For example, FE6. You get both a Pirate and a Brigand, as well as a prepromote Zerker later on, and they all share two big flaws - 1) their attacks are hard to connect, 2) they are often difficult to carry around. For example, SMs and Zerkers share that tasty 30% crit bonus but when Miledy, your top flier, cannot lift anybody too heavy, you have more of a reason to lift up Rutger for bosskilling fun. There's the whole strategy of dropping one of these on a peak making it highly unlikely that a WK connects a powerful blow, but there are faster ways to dispose of these folks (Nosferatanking and units capable of one-rounding like Percival and Miledy) without slowing you down from fulfilling the chapter objective. Berserker's waterwalk might seem useful in maps like 14x, but even there you can get to the boss much faster (even without a double-warp, or a single warp if you rig turn 1 EP for Roy's survival).

In FE7 you get an actual competent Berserker in Hawkeye, whose 6 move isn't too shabby for a while and he's there whenever you want to not die but little more than that after the desert/Genesis. Dart can become faster and hit harder if raised (chapter 25 seems like the perfect occasion to get him to promotion) but lacks Hawkeye's huge durability, not to mention having accuracy issues against some of the mildest foes around. The terrain bonus means little as you'll probably make use of it once to lure Vaida away from the killer weaponry shop.

Next game, and we have Ross, a character who needs to get out of his rut in order to become a foot unit with superfluous offence. In chapter 12 Eirika, he could peakwalk and get to the spiders before the rest of the party is able to confront said enemies. Dozla can do some of the same tasks with poorer stats (iirc he gets doubled by some foes on that map).

Path of Radiance introduces a lategame joiner in Largo, with less reliable offence than Boyd and noticeable squishiness.

Then we get the DS remakes - any progress there? Darros can turn into a Berserker if you reclass, but makes a poor one, while Barst (and possibly others) would rather go Hero for the extra speed and move to make a difference. In FE12, Pirates get good offence early on and there's that map where you recruit Julian where a Pirate helps out with the DKs. They're also apparently good for combat with 1-2 range and offer a desirable speed growth.

I hear Awakening's top Berserker is a good unit to invest into on the higher difficulties too, mostly because of combat and pair up.

What I'm trying to say with this, Berserkers have barely had a chance to shine so far. If we compare them to Pegs, who cross rivers even more easily, they aren't afraid of arrows and do not take penalties to AS when equipping stronger weapons (in games prior to PoR). It seems that Berserkers' -walk properties could be put to better use by making them available in maps where rivers and mountains could be crossed for efficiency and convenience purposes, like a Jeiganish Zerker carrying a Lord over the river to seize.

I don't think there's been anything like that in the FE series so far, but maybe there are hacks who construct maps where such tactics are made possible. Regardless, Berserkers' role should become more important than it has been.

[Shadow Mir]

I hear Awakening's top Berserker is a good unit to invest into on the higher difficulties too, mostly because of combat and pair up.

I wonder who that is?

At any rate, I kinda agree that Berserkers generally have a lack of niches for their peak walking and whatnot (particularly in Awakening, which stripped Berserkers of most of what made them worth using).

Edited July 18, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Randa]

Berserkers have lost a lot of there value over the years. They were pretty awsome in six with the ability to be pretty insane on certain maps. Seven nerfed their crit which was pretty mean. Eight there was no need for them and no point. They haven't retained their original value of epic dodge and kickass crit.

[Shadow Mir]

Berserkers have lost a lot of there value over the years. They were pretty awsome in six with the ability to be pretty insane on certain maps. Seven nerfed their crit which was pretty mean. Eight there was no need for them and no point. They haven't retained their original value of epic dodge and kickass crit.

Indeed. Though from where I'm standing, they didn't have that much value to lose, because FE6 was cruel to them by way of the fact that being axe locked was more of a curse than a blessing.

[Randa]

Indeed. Though from where I'm standing, they didn't have that much value to lose, because FE6 was cruel to them by way of the fact that being axe locked was more of a curse than a blessing.

Six was just awful to any axe user in the game. The hit rates were such bs.

[Shadow Mir]

Six was just awful to any axe user in the game. The hit rates were such bs.

Yeah... The most accurate axes only had 65 hit - ouch. And indeed, the hit rates were BS, especially when putting up with how ridiculously luck based killing bosses was.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Icon of Sin]

Berserkers are mostly there to kill things really hard, and they do it well at the cost of being able to be killed easily themselves and being somewhat inaccurate at landing blows. In a one on one fight in an arena type of fight, few classes come close to the Berserker in sheer power due to a combination of massive strength, great (usually) speed, average durability and axes.

Of course, in a map setting where you actually have to move to cover terrain, and therefore get to fight more often, they usually fall short to riders of all kinds because of their superior mobility. Even if FE would be more focused on defensive maps, the Berserkers would still be outclassed by more durable foot classes such as Heroes, Warriors, Generals and perhaps even Snipers due to their possible range bonuses.

The Berserker's terrain walk seems more like an added bonus that's there as a remnant of their past as a Brigand or a Pirate (which frankly doesn't make so much sense), ready to be used if it's really needed, but is generally not exploited so much. It's been in fact removed in Awakening I believe, as I don't remember Berserkers being able to cross peaks (which don't hold massive defensive bonuses anymore either) nor water tiles that aren't small rivers, which quite a few classes can cross.

Perhaps IS could use some ideas to broaden their skills, a bit like what happened with Berwick Saga, to make the Berserker true whirlwind of death on the battlefield. Borrowing from DnD, Berserkers could fly into a rage to raise their physical stats further for a while with a cooldown effect after a few turns. Or what about an activation skill that works as a mix of Provoke and Daunt, forcing enemies to strike the striding giant while their morale is diminished by his fighting prowess. Assuming we go back to a non-reclass formula, I do think effects such as Vengeance and Galeforce would be logical and welcome on Berserkers. Plenty of skill mechanics could be thought of. Really, why is it that no Thief can backstab targets.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Doga Blockovich

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Actually FE13 Zerker practically don't exist under efficieny context

Maybe Vaike, but Sol Vaike is better

[General Horace]

its just usually enemies are too weak to warrant a balls out offensive class like berserker. When a 15 strength falcoknight still kills the same enemies that a 25 strength berserker is killing, its just like, why bother?

on a somewhat unrelated note ive always wanted fliers to take movement penalties when flying over mountains, since they technically have to fly higher, don't they?

Edited July 19, 2013 by General Horace

[ZemZem]

Berserker!Henry is strangely impressive.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Invader ZM

[AnonymousSpeed]

'Zerkers are actually pretty powerful in FE13, because they have metric crap ton of speed and power, and axes are pretty powerful. In conjunction with the skill system, they're pretty beast.

[dondon151]

Berserker!Henry is strangely impressive.

can't compete with berserker etzel

espinosa, i think the premise of your topic is flawed. i've been thinking about heroes, swordmasters, snipers, warriors, and halberdiers, and i came to the conclusion that the jobs' whatever specifics haven't been put to good use in fire emblem - especially if we compare them to fliers.

[Randa]

The issue is everything is beast in 13.

[darkkfan]

I've been thinking about the existence of the Berserker class as available to the player and came to the conclusion that the job's terrain specifics haven't been put to good use in Fire Emblem - especially if we compare it to fliers.

For example, FE6. You get both a Pirate and a Brigand, as well as a prepromote Zerker later on, and they all share two big flaws - 1) their attacks are hard to connect, 2) they are often difficult to carry around. For example, SMs and Zerkers share that tasty 30% crit bonus but when Miledy, your top flier, cannot lift anybody too heavy, you have more of a reason to lift up Rutger for bosskilling fun. There's the whole strategy of dropping one of these on a peak making it highly unlikely that a WK connects a powerful blow, but there are faster ways to dispose of these folks (Nosferatanking and units capable of one-rounding like Percival and Miledy) without slowing you down from fulfilling the chapter objective. Berserker's waterwalk might seem useful in maps like 14x, but even there you can get to the boss much faster (even without a double-warp, or a single warp if you rig turn 1 EP for Roy's survival).

In FE7 you get an actual competent Berserker in Hawkeye, whose 6 move isn't too shabby for a while and he's there whenever you want to not die but little more than that after the desert/Genesis. Dart can become faster and hit harder if raised (chapter 25 seems like the perfect occasion to get him to promotion) but lacks Hawkeye's huge durability, not to mention having accuracy issues against some of the mildest foes around. The terrain bonus means little as you'll probably make use of it once to lure Vaida away from the killer weaponry shop.

Next game, and we have Ross, a character who needs to get out of his rut in order to become a foot unit with superfluous offence. In chapter 12 Eirika, he could peakwalk and get to the spiders before the rest of the party is able to confront said enemies. Dozla can do some of the same tasks with poorer stats (iirc he gets doubled by some foes on that map).

Path of Radiance introduces a lategame joiner in Largo, with less reliable offence than Boyd and noticeable squishiness.

Then we get the DS remakes - any progress there? Darros can turn into a Berserker if you reclass, but makes a poor one, while Barst (and possibly others) would rather go Hero for the extra speed and move to make a difference. In FE12, Pirates get good offence early on and there's that map where you recruit Julian where a Pirate helps out with the DKs. They're also apparently good for combat with 1-2 range and offer a desirable speed growth.

I hear Awakening's top Berserker is a good unit to invest into on the higher difficulties too, mostly because of combat and pair up.

What I'm trying to say with this, Berserkers have barely had a chance to shine so far. If we compare them to Pegs, who cross rivers even more easily, they aren't afraid of arrows and do not take penalties to AS when equipping stronger weapons (in games prior to PoR). It seems that Berserkers' -walk properties could be put to better use by making them available in maps where rivers and mountains could be crossed for efficiency and convenience purposes, like a Jeiganish Zerker carrying a Lord over the river to seize.

I don't think there's been anything like that in the FE series so far, but maybe there are hacks who construct maps where such tactics are made possible. Regardless, Berserkers' role should become more important than it has been.

I agree with this. We need more Berserkers! Hawkeye is really good and Berserker makes a great reclass in FE11 and FE12, but the other games' berserkers just aren't cutting it with the design. Even in terrain that they have the advantage of being able to move through, they are outclassed by fliers in terms of movement and most stats. I mean, being able to move 2-3 squares in water or mountains isn't that great when fliers can move 7-8.

espinosa, i think the premise of your topic is flawed. i've been thinking about heroes, swordmasters, snipers, warriors, and halberdiers, and i came to the conclusion that the jobs' whatever specifics haven't been put to good use in fire emblem - especially if we compare them to fliers.

This is a good point and I think it is true to a certain extent. I mean, you can make a point that any class is useless/not implemented well, but for some like Berserkers and Warriors (in some games), it is easier to make that argument.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Walhart

[Rainbow Skittles]

berserkers are like one of the best physical classes in 13, due to axes having higher hit rates, and them having great strength and speed.

[ZemZem]

can't compete with berserker etzel

Best unit.

[Refa]

can't compete with berserker etzel

espinosa, i think the premise of your topic is flawed. i've been thinking about heroes, swordmasters, snipers, warriors, and halberdiers, and i came to the conclusion that the jobs' whatever specifics haven't been put to good use in fire emblem - especially if we compare them to fliers.

I dunno, heroes are usually pretty good in FE. In the first 3, they were crazy ridiculous, having far better combat than most of your team (especially in 3, thanks to dismounting). In 4...they weren't that special. Pretty OK in 5, although that could be less because of the class and more because of Othin/Halvan. In 6/7/8, heroes are basically the best unmounted units with no special utility (and most of your fliers are balls in FE6, so it's not like they have an advantage there). I dunno how useful that was in 6, but in 7 and 8 all of your heroes are pretty helpful units. Even Garcia. 9 didn't have them, I don't know anything about 10, they have like 1 less move than unpromoted mounts and better movement type in 11 and 12.

I mean, when your jobs' specifics are "be kind of good at everything", it's hard to fail at that. It's usually to the players' benefit to have one or two on the team.

[dondon151]

I dunno, heroes are usually pretty good in FE.

yes, but are they pretty good relative to fliers...?

for a casual player, heroes always tend to be pretty good, but a lot of them are almost superfluous in LTC.

[darkkfan]

yes, but are they pretty good relative to fliers...?

for a casual player, heroes always tend to be pretty good, but a lot of them are almost superfluous in LTC.

I agree with this. Plus, Sol gives them extra sustainability and usefulness in FE13 so that's worth noting.

[Emperor Hardin]

Actually I find Berserkers consistently good in almost every game they appear in. To List:

Thracia 776: Unplayable enemy class, but has innate Wrath which is one of the best skills to have in the game.

Binding Blade: Not Swordmasters and axes aren't the best due to accuracy problems, but 30% crit is still exceedingly useful and most of the enemies are lousy dodgers anyway.

Blazing Sword: Both Hawkeye and Dart are great.

Sacred Stones: Dozla isn't the best, but thats more his characters problem and he can still be a decent unit. Ross, if you take the time to grind him, does the best in Berserker by far.

Path Of Radiance: Not so Great due to only possible Berserker joining in late as well as lack of a critical bonus in the Japanese version. Probably the only game where Berserkers are inferior to Warriors. Still Largo does have decent stats and there's a 90% chance he'll max out HP and Strength.

DS Remakes: Waterwalking is useful for many of the games chapters, Highest Strength combined with High speed, critical bonus, and good all around stats make them one of the best classes to be in. Only problem is that the default Berserker Darros isn't so good in Shadow Dragon.

[Refa]

yes, but are they pretty good relative to fliers...?

for a casual player, heroes always tend to be pretty good, but a lot of them are almost superfluous in LTC.

They have their advantages! I mean, in games like FE6, FE7, FE9, and FE11, you get super fliers like Miledy, every FE7 flier, every FE9 flier, and Sheeda who totally outclass them, but I think in the other games there are times when heroes fare better.

Overall they are worse for the LTC, but I mean, so is every nonwarping/nondancing unit. Doesn't make cavaliers any less useful!

Edited July 20, 2013 by Refa

[MacLovin]

Berserkers do have an advantage over Paladins.

In the link arena!

[Anouleth]

I've been thinking about the existence of the Berserker class as available to the player and came to the conclusion that the job's terrain specifics haven't been put to good use in Fire Emblem - especially if we compare it to fliers.

For example, FE6. You get both a Pirate and a Brigand, as well as a prepromote Zerker later on, and they all share two big flaws - 1) their attacks are hard to connect, 2) they are often difficult to carry around. For example, SMs and Zerkers share that tasty 30% crit bonus but when Miledy, your top flier, cannot lift anybody too heavy, you have more of a reason to lift up Rutger for bosskilling fun. There's the whole strategy of dropping one of these on a peak making it highly unlikely that a WK connects a powerful blow, but there are faster ways to dispose of these folks (Nosferatanking and units capable of one-rounding like Percival and Miledy) without slowing you down from fulfilling the chapter objective. Berserker's waterwalk might seem useful in maps like 14x, but even there you can get to the boss much faster (even without a double-warp, or a single warp if you rig turn 1 EP for Roy's survival).

In FE7 you get an actual competent Berserker in Hawkeye, whose 6 move isn't too shabby for a while and he's there whenever you want to not die but little more than that after the desert/Genesis. Dart can become faster and hit harder if raised (chapter 25 seems like the perfect occasion to get him to promotion) but lacks Hawkeye's huge durability, not to mention having accuracy issues against some of the mildest foes around. The terrain bonus means little as you'll probably make use of it once to lure Vaida away from the killer weaponry shop.

Next game, and we have Ross, a character who needs to get out of his rut in order to become a foot unit with superfluous offence. In chapter 12 Eirika, he could peakwalk and get to the spiders before the rest of the party is able to confront said enemies. Dozla can do some of the same tasks with poorer stats (iirc he gets doubled by some foes on that map).

Path of Radiance introduces a lategame joiner in Largo, with less reliable offence than Boyd and noticeable squishiness.

Then we get the DS remakes - any progress there? Darros can turn into a Berserker if you reclass, but makes a poor one, while Barst (and possibly others) would rather go Hero for the extra speed and move to make a difference. In FE12, Pirates get good offence early on and there's that map where you recruit Julian where a Pirate helps out with the DKs. They're also apparently good for combat with 1-2 range and offer a desirable speed growth.

I hear Awakening's top Berserker is a good unit to invest into on the higher difficulties too, mostly because of combat and pair up.

What I'm trying to say with this, Berserkers have barely had a chance to shine so far. If we compare them to Pegs, who cross rivers even more easily, they aren't afraid of arrows and do not take penalties to AS when equipping stronger weapons (in games prior to PoR). It seems that Berserkers' -walk properties could be put to better use by making them available in maps where rivers and mountains could be crossed for efficiency and convenience purposes, like a Jeiganish Zerker carrying a Lord over the river to seize.

Or, an even better idea, you could just use a flier, who has more movement, rather than sacrificing stats on a primary combat unit.

I don't think there's been anything like that in the FE series so far, but maybe there are hacks who construct maps where such tactics are made possible. Regardless, Berserkers' role should become more important than it has been.

Berserkers have historically been ok. I'm not going to say that Ross is good, but he's not dramatically awful. Berserkers are usually hampered mainly by having iffy availability; among Berserkers, Ross is the only one who joins in earlygame and with horrible base stats. Garret, Gonzales, Dart, Dozla, and Largo are all fine, if a little bit on the underpowered side aside from Gonzales who is above average. And obviously it's a very solid reclass choice in FE12 and FE13.