League of Legends

[Kiriane]

Heh heh heh. As a support player, I fully support whoever-it-was who said there's a world of difference between a support and a guy who's just laning next to you. Same thing goes for junglers and the guy who's just killing creeps in the jungle.

As for winning easy bots, I think it's more a function of skill level: even playing a traditionally low-damage champion I can usually finish out a game in 20-odd minutes despite my 2-3 comrades either leaving or derping. As in new-to-the-game kind of derping. Intermediate bots are either as easy as easybots (team did well) or 40 minute drag fests which the ADC ultimately carries by melting everything while his team meatshields for him. Still don't lose those any more, after I stopped playing non-ADCs in intermediate.

You know what really gets me? When my team throws a game on lack of common sense. It always happens around baron. They do stupid things like going out to fight at half HP and no mana after we got the buff. Or they'll try to keep fighting baron (come on let's finish this) when the opposing team comes for a fight, and end up being handily defeated and giving up free baron. Or I'll ping baron, the window of opportunity closes, and I backping baron instead...and they go do baron 20 seconds after I pinged it the first time.

This is a strategy game, guys. I have no clue how the idiot makes 1600 who says "don't engage them guys I'm going to farm bot" at 27 minutes.

[Exiledwolf]

Am i llike the only person who straight ahead went for PvP and not practiced with bots? I feel bots are to weak when set in beginner and too hard when set to higher levels

[peener weener]

don't build triforce on vayne

[buttmuncher.ops]

never played a bot game unless it's to teach someone else

even when starting out, but i just happen to be naturally talented at the genre and surrounded by talented gamer friends

[peener weener]

YEAH WHO CARES

Edited September 12, 2012 by Stolypin Necktie

[Grace]

who cares if you play bot games or not (@the discussion)

to each their own. people play this game for different reasons and in different ways.

[Kiriane]

Meh, bot games are an awesome way to guarantee first win at a consistent time each day. /guilty as charged

They're also good when your teammates have been derping all day and you just want to stomp something. /also guilty as charged

[eclipse]

I'd rather NOT be the cause of my team getting stomped, thankyouverymuch. I don't much care for it, but unless I'm with four other people that can explain things slowly, I'd rather not go Normal.

[Kiriane]

Hey eclipse, you should add us and we could game sometime. Maybe this weekend? I'll be happy to play with you.

[eclipse]

I'm not sure what my plans are, but I'll have to crawl through this thread. Anyone else object to me adding them?

I really don't care for this week's rotation. . .so I get to completely relearn everything. Just as I was getting the hang of Tumbling out of the way of certain things. ;/

[Exiledwolf]

meh i dont really mind losing. as long as we worked as a team i dont mind. But if there is a feeder, then all blame goes to that person.

Right now i dont know what role to be. Im switching between ranged ad/ and mid ap...

[buttmuncher.ops]

my opinion's been that the only way you learn how to beat other human players at a game is by playing against actual humans. being ready for the unpredictableness of what you're going to face is probably half the fun, and you'll learn & get better whether you win or you lose.

it's much better than playing vs a scripted AI where it's easy because you know exactly what's going to happen just because you feel the need for a cheap win. winning is fun but i prefer real wins. but to each their own.

[Grace]

I'm not sure what my plans are, but I'll have to crawl through this thread. Anyone else object to me adding them?

Not at all. My summoner name should be in the OP (I just checked).

[eclipse]

I prefer not being insulted because I screwed up, so if people don't mind telling me what to do (literally), I'll be more than willing to try normal. Once I feel I'm not a liability, I might attempt a random normal game.

[Grace]

Okay, math post because I can (and to help people who don't know about this stuff/blindly follow standard builds). Numerical analysis of two fairly equal gold builds for ranged AD carries, Infinity Edge + Vamp Scepter against Bloodthirster (fully stacked) + Pickaxe. Other assumed items are Berserker's Greaves and 2 Doran's Blades (general standard). Runes and masteries are not going to be considered. Any AD scaling abilities are also not considered (eg: Vayne's Tumble, Graves' Buckshot, Varus' Piercing Arrow, Draven's Spinning Axe, etc.). AS should be constant because of identical AS granting items on each build.

[spoiler=MATH]

Let x be the base AD of your ranged AD.

---

Consider for the Infinity Edge case, you have:

+100 bonus AD (80 from IE + 20 from two D Blades)

+25% crit chance

250% crit damage

+16% lifesteal (10 from Vamp Scepter + 6 from D Blades)

+160 Health

The average damage per attack would be (0.25)(2.5(100+x)) + (0.75)(100+x)

As to factor in the crit chance as a probability. Expanding that gives:

= (62.5 + 0.625x) + (75 + 0.75x)

= 137.5 + 1.375x

And hence the lifesteal per attack on average would be:

0.16(137.5 + 1.375x)

= 22 + 0.22x

---

Now consider the Bloodthirster case, you have:

+145 bonus AD (100 from Bloodthirster + 25 from Pickaxe + 20 from two D Blades)

+26% lifesteal (20 from Bloodthirster + 6 from from D Blades)

+160 Health

This is a much simpler calculation for the damage per attack, because of no crit.

Avg. damage per attack = 145 + x

Hence the lifesteal per attack is:

0.26(145 + x)

= 37.7 + 0.26x

---

Now, let's compare the damage per attack. Let's consider the point where they both deal equal damage on average.

137.5 + 1.375x = 145 + x

=> 0.375x = 7.5

=> x = 20

Hence, your ranged AD would have to have a base AD of 20 for them to be equal. Also note that as base AD increases, Infinity Edge wins because it's damage increase with x is higher than that of the Bloodthirster.

However, it should be noted that the lowest base AD of any ranged AD is 49 (Varus and Kog'Maw, last I checked). Hence, Infinity Edge will win damage all the time.

---

Now let's compare lifesteal amounts.

22 + 0.22x = 37.7 + 0.26x

=> -0.04x = 15.7

=> x = -392.5

Moving right along because the conclusion is obvious. Bloodthirster will always provide superior sustain if fully stacked.

---

[spoiler=Bonus Math (unstacked Bloodthirster)]

Now let's consider a case where your Bloodthirster has no stacks on it.

+105 bonus AD (60 from Bloodthirster + 25 from Pickaxe + 20 from two D Blades)

+18% lifesteal

+160 Health

Hence damage per attack = 105 + x

And lifesteal is = 0.18(105 + x) = 18.9 + 0.18x

Just by comparison;

137.5 + 1.375x : 105 + x

22 + 0.22x : 18.9 + 0.18x

Both values for the unstacked Bloodthirster are lower than the IE case.

The take away message if you didn't read the math (which you should): IE + Vamp gives a greater damage and still has reasonable sustain, whereas BT + Pickaxe gives less damage but greater sustain when stacked (and if not stacked, is outright beaten by IE + Vamp).

Edited September 12, 2012 by Manix

[Kiriane]

my opinion's been that the only way you learn how to beat other human players at a game is by playing against actual humans. being ready for the unpredictableness of what you're going to face is probably half the fun, and you'll learn & get better whether you win or you lose.

it's much better than playing vs a scripted AI where it's easy because you know exactly what's going to happen just because you feel the need for a cheap win. winning is fun but i prefer real wins. but to each their own.

You know, I completely agree with you. But I have a priority, and that is to get 150 IP per day every day, considering I already don't get to play much as is. It's easy. That's the whole point of it. And when I'm losing badly due to almost completely no fault of my own, I know it's not a real win, but sometimes I just want to break something, y'know? Plus, I need a break from people sometimes. Teammates more so than opponents.

Hey exiled, stop blaming the feeder...sure he might be the main reason you lose, I yell at my multiqueue partners all the time when they make mistakes too. But along with that, there's the little element of ok, he lost his lane, how can I fix this? and if you don't even try fixing it you're also to blame for the loss.

We should do more SF premades. With eclipse. We can impress upon him the importance of warding.

--

I didn't know that about IE+Vamp and BT+Pickaxe! Always just followed the rule, if you're playing a normal game build IE, if you're participating in midgame fights and did well in lane build BT. Though I'll question the pickaxe, since usually after the big damage item you want some aspd.

The logic works as follows. In mid game skirmishing, the more sustain you have, the better. Therefore BT. It's also 1k cheaper to get BT than IE+vamp, so you get there faster - mid game anyone? Exception made for Corki, because if he's fed and participating in mid game fights, he should have a BC+vamp.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Kiriane

[Exiledwolf]

Oh right I see. Its just that during those games when you have a chance at winning (ie one carry and a 4 man meh team) and that one person keeps continuously dying to the same person, then that when i get upset. If they keep dying, i usually at least try to warn them to not go after him and turret hug a bit, but usually that ends up to no avail. Thats when i would blame them. If it was just our team in general, i wouldnt and still play normally

[Grace]

@Kiriane: I used something that was roughly the same gold value. But note that it is a lot harder to factor an AS item in. Like, I could consider BT + Zeal (which is probably closer to the actual gold value) for example, but different AD's have different bases for AS which makes it hard to generalize, and instead has to be done on a case by case basis. If I wanted to generalize (at a guess) though, the overall damage increase over time would probably be better, but would probably still lose to IE + Vamp for damage.

Also, Phantom Dancer is easily the next best item anyway, just as a note. Although I should make the note that the damage comparison gets even more ridic and BT starts losing it's sustain edge a little. Might do numbers on that later. (EDIT: Working on it now. Because I'm bored.)(EDIT2: here we go.)

[spoiler=MORE MATH]Builds have now been expanded to include one Phantom Dancer. The comparison is still between IE + Vamp against BT + Pickaxe (which you will want the Pickaxe for either IE or LW). Standard items are Beserker's Greaves, Phantom Dancer and two Doran's Blades.

Let x be the base AD of your ranged AD.

---

Consider for the Infinity Edge case, you have:

+100 bonus AD (80 from IE + 20 from two D Blades)

+55% crit chance (25 from IE, 30 from PD)

250% crit damage

+16% lifesteal (10 from Vamp Scepter + 6 from D Blades)

+160 Health

The average damage per attack would be (0.55)(2.5(100+x)) + (0.45)(100+x)

As to factor in the crit chance as a probability. Expanding that gives:

= (137.5 + 1.375x) + (45 + 0.45x)

= 182.5 + 1.825x

And hence the lifesteal per attack on average would be:

0.16(182.5 + 1.825x)

= 29.2 + 0.292x

---

Now consider the Bloodthirster case, you have:

+145 bonus AD (100 from Bloodthirster + 25 from Pickaxe + 20 from two D Blades)

+26% lifesteal (20 from Bloodthirster + 6 from from D Blades)

+160 Health

+30% crit chance

The average damage per attack would be (0.30)(2(145+x)) + (0.7)(145+x)

As to factor in the crit chance as a probability (note that there is no 250% crit damage here!). Expanding that gives:

= (87 + 0.6x) + (101.5 + 0.7x)

= 188.5 + 1.3x

Hence the lifesteal per attack is:

0.26(188.5 + 1.3x)

= 49.01 + 0.338x

---

Now, let's compare the damage per attack. Let's consider the point where they both deal equal damage on average.

182.5 + 1.825x = 188.5 + 1.3x

=> 0.525x = 6

=> x = 11.425...

Hence, your ranged AD would have to have a base AD of about 11 and a half for them to be equal. This is less than the 20 as noted before, so IE is clearly still dealing more damage. And the difference is greater now.

---

Now let's compare lifesteal amounts.

29.2 + 0.292x = 49.01 + 0.338x

=> -0.046x = 19.81

=> x = -430.65...

Hmm okay. It looks like BT actually manages to keep it's sustain edge and gains a slight advantage. But still.

---

Now for two examples. Assuming low AD, so this example will use Varus. Example comparison points are Level 9 with IE + Vamp against BT + Pick and Level 14 with a PD.

At level 9, Varus' AD is 49 + 3(8) = 73, so:

137.5 + 1.375x : 145 + x

=> 137.5 + 1.375(73) : 145 + 73

=> 237.875 : 218 , a damage difference of about 20 per attack.

22 + 0.22x : 37.7 + 0.26x

=> 22 + 0.22(73) : 37.7 + 0.26(73)

=> 38.06 : 56.68, a lifesteal difference of about 18 per attack.

Now consider Varus at level 14, AD is 49 + 3(13) = 88, so:

182.5 + 1.825x : 188.5 + 1.3x

=> 182.5 + 1.825(88) : 188.5 + 1.3(88)

=> 343.1 : 302.9 , which is about a 40 damage difference per attack.

29.2 + 0.292x : 49.01 + 0.338x

=> 29.2 + 0.292(88) : 49.01 + 0.338(88)

=> 54.896 : 78.754, a lifesteal difference of about 24 per attack.

Now consider if the AD Carry had a higher base (Graves, Vayne). The damage from IE would be greater and so would the lifesteal from BT, but the sustain increase from BT is much less than the damage from IE.

Conclusion: I would want IE over BT most of the time. Also remember that you can kill jungle camps/push lanes to get your sustain, while against champs the extra damage would clearly be more useful. Also note that this is per attack, so with higher AS the extra damage scales even better than the LS.

The thing is, what if I considered BT (fully stacked) against IE + Vamp? I would surmise that the difference wouldn't actually be that much. And this is assuming you manage to keep BT stacks (which sometimes can be a pain). Basically, if you need the sustain (ie if your support is non-sustain), BT first is actually a possibility, but IE + Vamp doesn't lose out on the sustain department quite as much and gets far better damage.

EDIT: Have some numbers:

[spoiler=EVEN MORE MATH]BT only:

+120 bonus AD

+26% lifesteal

+160 Health

Damage per attack: 120 + x

Lifesteal: 0.26(120 + x) = 31.2 + 0.26x

Compare:

137.5 + 1.375x : 120 + x

22 + 0.22x : 31.2 + 0.26x

Difference is about 6HP per attack. Okay.

Now let's consider an example: Level 9 Varus that has 49 + 3(8) = 73 base AD (probably slightly under the average time, but eh)(also one of the lowest base AD for a ranged carry)

137.5 + 1.375(73) : 120 + 73

=> 237.875 : 193 , a difference of about 44 damage per autoattack on average.

22 + 0.22(73) : 31.2 + 0.26(73)

=> 38.06 : 50.18 , a difference of about 12 HP per auto attack.

Conclusion: About the same as above. The example does paint the picture a little better for perspective.

The logic works as follows. In mid game skirmishing, the more sustain you have, the better. Therefore BT. It's also 1k cheaper to get BT than IE+vamp, so you get there faster - mid game anyone? Exception made for Corki, because if he's fed and participating in mid game fights, he should have a BC+vamp.

But is the extra sustain from BT first superfluous or not? I'd say yes, because if you're caught out it isn't going to matter (you will squish into the ground). I can't say much about the 1k gold difference, aside from the fact that you need to blow 3k gold on an item that isn't quite the best for damage purposes. Means I don't have to wait for the great damage items by getting IE first.

re Corki: Now I don't play a lot of Corki myself, but I'm not a fan of BC on him as a rush item either. Mind you, calculating that is also a royal pain. Although I vaguely recall that an early BC on some AD's (Trist/Vayne/Corki) is ridic, but I'm not sure.

I think most Corki's these days head towards an early Trinity over Boots2 + Double Doran's + Vamp. I did some vague numbers with some assumptions built in recently, and the damage difference between Trinity and IE first isn't actually that much (and you get the slow effect and higher movespeed, hence kiting/chasing time).

(Also; eclipse is a she. Just thought I'd note that.)

Edited September 12, 2012 by Manix

[Xinnidy]

Oh wow this game still exists. :0

I used to play this until like the Sejuani patch but then my friends kinda vanished from this and so did I. Mreh. I can't bring myself to solo, I blame playing almost entirely with friends and always being put on support role. (well, at least I learned quite a bit about map awareness and some support champions but I can't kill creeps or champions and can't use aggressive ults effectively for my life)

What would you guys suggest to a lv19 noob that probably knows zilch about the current metagame? Also, is there any new champions that I should take note of?

[-Cynthia-]

The take away message if you didn't read the math (which you should): IE + Vamp gives a greater damage and still has reasonable sustain, whereas BT + Pickaxe gives less damage but greater sustain when stacked (and if not stacked, is outright beaten by IE + Vamp).

Discounting AD scaling abilities is a big difference though, someone like Graves may prefer the Bloodthirster because it gives more raw AD- the AD empowers his Q and R which don't benefit from the crit chance of IE. In the midgame AD carries often use their skills more than auto attacks, which means the AD makes a bigger difference. Someone who autoattacks mostly during the midgame (say, Tristana) would benefit from IE more though.

Ultimately I think it depends on the champion- if you have shorter range and/or use more abilities Bloodthirster is a better first buy, if you have longer range and/or use more autoattacks you should go IE first.

[Silvercrow]

Discounting AD scaling abilities is a big difference though, someone like Graves may prefer the Bloodthirster because it gives more raw AD- the AD empowers his Q and R which don't benefit from the crit chance of IE. In the midgame AD carries often use their skills more than auto attacks, which means the AD makes a bigger difference. Someone who autoattacks mostly during the midgame (say, Tristana) would benefit from IE more though.

Ultimately I think it depends on the champion- if you have shorter range and/or use more abilities Bloodthirster is a better first buy, if you have longer range and/or use more autoattacks you should go IE first.

The issue at hand is that your first damage item will probably need to last you longer than your midgame. After your first item, you're headed for Phantom Dancer/maybe Triforce and then after that most likely a Whisper or some kind of defensive item. By the time you have 3 full items, you're out of the midgame stages for sure. And if you're holding a BT PD LW against a guy with IE PD LW, they are going to outdamage you handily because of how well IE stacks with PD's effect. Sustain or extra burst from spells won't make up that gap.

Not to say that there aren't situations where a BT is worth buying (like if you're getting bullied out of lane or something and need a decent damage item with sustain fast), but if you're going for raw carry potential IE is king.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Silvercrow

[-Cynthia-]

The issue at hand is that your first damage item will probably need to last you longer than your midgame. After your first item, you're headed for Phantom Dancer/maybe Triforce and then after that most likely a Whisper or some kind of defensive item. By the time you have 3 full items, you're out of the midgame stages for sure. And if you're holding a BT PD LW against a guy with IE PD LW, they are going to outdamage you handily because of how well IE stacks with PD's effect. Sustain or extra burst from spells won't make up that gap.

Not to say that there aren't situations where a BT is worth buying (like if you're getting bullied out of lane or something and need a decent damage item with sustain fast), but if you're going for raw carry potential IE is king.

Why not IE PD BT? I guess it depends on the AD carry in question and the amount of armor enemies are buying, but say...Vayne doesn't need the armor penetration as much so she might as well go for the one she didn't get earlier (I like BT first on Vayne personally). Like I said, endgame AD carry builds might all look alike, but which items you get first should be situation dependent.

[Grace]

I know that most people take LW as their third item, but it isn't actually required on some champs, or even in general. BT as a third item after IE + PD is definitely viable.

And I can see that BT is possible on Vayne (those Tumbles), and Draven (them Spinning Axes), that's because they get a strong increase in AD on some attacks (which increases with BT). I did some numbers on Tumble!Vayne attacks, and BT was very close to IE. However, you can't tumble all the time, so... (assumption was that Tumble was maxed first). My problem with taking early BT on Graves is you're kinda wasting the LS on Buckshot, but then again the same could be said for the crit chance.

I think it's mostly down to preference, really. I personally prefer IE over BT in most cases.

[Silvercrow]

Why not IE PD BT? I guess it depends on the AD carry in question and the amount of armor enemies are buying, but say...Vayne doesn't need the armor penetration as much so she might as well go for the one she didn't get earlier (I like BT first on Vayne personally). Like I said, endgame AD carry builds might all look alike, but which items you get first should be situation dependent.

It's a solid choice if your enemies aren't really buying armor. That's not something that happens frequently in my experience, though. You're the one that your team looks to to be able to take down the tankiest members of the other team.

I do strange Vayne builds so I won't comment, but IE PD BT is probably viable on her more frequently than others/

Edited September 12, 2012 by Silvercrow

[Grace]

Actually, while we're on the topic of LW, read this. Might put some stuff in perspective.

And IE PD BT on Vayne is something that I do a lot as well, soooo

Edited September 12, 2012 by Manix