League of Legends

[peener weener]

it'll probably be shown during the grand finals, if they ever fucking happen

[eclipse]

Aren't finals next week or something like that?

[peener weener]

they're on the 12th, but right now we don't even know really, because of all the shit that went down

[Solanum Tuberosum]

Championship Riven, War Hero Janna, and New TF Models

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2012/10/104-pbe-update.html

Riven looks cool imo and the Janna one looks ok but definitely better than War Hero Jarvan

[Kiriane]

@the support chogath guy: no go, you need at least 2gp10 to cover wards proper. This is how supports normally do their item slots:

boots, philo/reverie, hog, (kage/avarice), one big item, ward slot

where the big item is dependent on who you're playing. Most common supports take Aegis, Fiddlesticks takes Hourglass, your Cho would probably go Rylai if you really want that, Blitzcrank likes FH. Et cetera. On games with 2gp10 the last slot is most often either pink wards or building a big item by parts. If you're warding, the game is likely to end before you upgrade the hog. If you're not, you suck at support and need to walk off a cliff. I've seen games end with the support having all of boots2, philo and hog because he was busy warding and dewarding. They weren't even particularly short games. If you need a big item, you're doing it wrong.

[Life]

@the support chogath guy: no go, you need at least 2gp10 to cover wards proper. This is how supports normally do their item slots:

boots, philo/reverie, hog, (kage/avarice), one big item, ward slot

where the big item is dependent on who you're playing. Most common supports take Aegis, Fiddlesticks takes Hourglass, your Cho would probably go Rylai if you really want that, Blitzcrank likes FH. Et cetera. On games with 2gp10 the last slot is most often either pink wards or building a big item by parts. If you're warding, the game is likely to end before you upgrade the hog. If you're not, you suck at support and need to walk off a cliff. I've seen games end with the support having all of boots2, philo and hog because he was busy warding and dewarding. They weren't even particularly short games. If you need a big item, you're doing it wrong.

I wouldn't say that I'm playing wrong just because a Rylai's gives Cho everything he wants plus retarded utility. I'd just say that he's not at the level of other supports until then.

[Kiriane]

Neither would I say that you're playing wrong because you want Rylai's, I fully support getting Rylai's too. I'm saying you won't get anywhere real quick without starting at least 2gp10s. Certainly you won't be able to afford the big item except on 3gp10 funding OR with a ton of assists. Heck, sometimes I have trouble finishing up an aegis on 2gp10, and I run 5gp10 in runes and masteries, and know how to cut warding without losing utility if I'm short on funds.

Running 7.25gp10 in runes and masteries

Start: Boots + wards

Back #1: Ruby Crystal + wards

Back #2: Heart of Gold/Amplifiying Tome + wards

From there, Rylai's and support items.

This implies that you're building Rylai's off 1 gp10 item. At what time, exactly, do you expect to finish that item? Even assuming your jungler is a Really Nice Guy and taking over all warding responsibility?

Math:

SR passive gold: 13

Runes and masteries: 7.25

=> 20.25 gold per 10 seconds; HoG finished in 410 seconds, or approximately 7 minutes with no cs.

Contrast: started faerie, therefore 625 gold to philo stone, or 310 seconds to your first gp10 item.

Philo/HoG: 5

=> 25.25 gold per 10 seconds

One gp10 item costs 800g; it will take 320 seconds (about 5 minutes) to the second one.

Rylai's costs 3105g. 1240 seconds, nearly 21 minutes, on 25gp10.

Philo AND HoG: 10

=> 30.25 gold per 10 seconds

Rylais: 1000 seconds; factoring in the time cost of the second gp10, you're getting this item net 1 minute later.

1 assist: 175 gold, about 90 seconds' worth. One minute and a half. A kill is worth two minutes and a half of gold. Diminishing returns apply. This is particularly useful in reducing the time cost for a second gp10 item.

Extend the math to 3gp10 yourself.

All this math is done assuming the jungler is a Really Nice Guy. Once you factor in ward costs, a constant drain on your resources, stacking gp10s - a constant increase in resources acquired - becomes a much more attractive option.

You didn't think I would make a statement like "you must get 2gp10s" without being able to back it up?

[Silvercrow]

I agree with what you say but support Cho is rarely fully 0 CS even if you don't count the creeps he feasts

Obviously it depends on the game flow but if Cho gets some time to farm he can do it quickly and safely in both lanes and jungle. Not that I would expect him to exceed maybe 50 CS but that's an extra ~1000 gold more than your average Soraka or whatever else might want Rylai's/Frozen Heart (which I think is a better choice for your "big" item if nobody else on your team is building it) is probably going to achieve in a random game

Edited October 8, 2012 by Silvercrow

[Kiriane]

I disregarded farming the same way I disregarded dragon and tower gold, and even kill/assist gold: it's a flat addition, a one-time thing, whereas gold items are constant gold generation. Any gold gained from whatever outside sources applies to both cases. Did the math in my head anyway, say you get 1k gold randomly by whatever means between minute 12 (second gp10 item in standard playthrough with wards and no outside gold) and picking up third big item. Cuts the time to 840 vs 700 seconds. A little over 2 minutes' difference when the second gp10 is factored in, pretty much negligible in terms of variance per game.

As for farming. I have been in games where the entire allied half of the jungle is clear of everything and all our creep waves are at the opposing towers. Consistently. It isn't too hard to achieve, except for maybe the odd unfarmable bot lane minion wave because nobody brought teleport. I tend to end those games with maybe 20 cs, maximum, as support; most of those are random from aoe damage in a kill lane or a big teamfight with creeps involved. If your ADC and APC are competent you will have no real chance to farm anything significant. Goodness knows they clear creeps faster and use the gold more effectively anyway.

Then again, I've been in a lot of scrub games where there's no shortage of free farm for anyone who pays attention, so okay...yeah, "support" cs can get real high.

You know what, add the assumption of 3 wards per 3 minutes, 75 gold per 60 seconds is -12.5 gold per 10. Yep, that's right, 1 gp10 item is more or less equal to maintaining 1 ward on the map at all times, plus a little 1gp10 bonus for you!

I don't even know where I'm going with this, way too sleepy now, so I'm going to provide empirical evidence instead. Started a couple games without my gp10 runes/masteries due to whatever mix-up, had a hell of a time getting even the first gp10 item while keeping lane phase wards. I don't like it. Played a ton of games on 2 gp10 items along with runes/masteries. If we were doing well, I'd have Aegis after we won the first big baron fight while maintaining reasonable ward coverage. If we weren't, I probably wouldn't manage an Aegis until late lategame if at all. Played also a ton of games on 3 gp10 items with the same runes/masteries, comfortably lighting up the map all game every game (throw wards around like candy) while still finishing out Aegis before big baron fights start happening. Never successfully made an actual big item such as hourglass or FH on 2gp10, but consistently got hold of one on 3gp10, winning or losing.

I'm aware that I have a ward habit the same way anyone else would have a cocaine habit, yes.

[Silvercrow]

I disregarded farming the same way I disregarded dragon and tower gold, and even kill/assist gold: it's a flat addition, a one-time thing, whereas gold items are constant gold generation. Any gold gained from whatever outside sources applies to both cases. Did the math in my head anyway, say you get 1k gold randomly by whatever means between minute 12 (second gp10 item in standard playthrough with wards and no outside gold) and picking up third big item. Cuts the time to 840 vs 700 seconds. A little over 2 minutes' difference when the second gp10 is factored in, pretty much negligible in terms of variance per game.

Yea but this is just as a baseline for comparison against other supports. Cho is capable of making up the gold lost on wards by farming it since he is not only better at it but gains more out of it than other supports might. Soraka or Janna will still get tower and KA gold, but will probably farm next to nothing. Cho gets all of the above plus whatever farm he can scrounge

If you're losing map control, then yea he's the first person that has to give it up which is why I said "it depends on the game flow", but support Cho is not played in the same sense that Soraka, Janna, Sona etc are. He has high returns from his farm relative to other supports, so he is justified in receiving some (but still less than solo lanes)

Most "unconventional" supports are unconventional because of this property: they scale well off farm, so optimal use of them means giving them farm, which means detracting farm from elsewhere. This is why some oddball champs once played as supports, like Gangplank or Galio, are now never seen in that role

[Kiriane]

Even with great map control. I think you missed my second paragraph entirely. Though it seems we just have differing philosophies, which might also have to do with the time we joined LoL.

I expect my support to be absolutely 0 cs, except for random creeps taken on accident, and build around that idea. Support Cho, GP, Galio, whoever are still played around this - the defining criterion for a support, in my opinion, is that s/he can keep on being useful on absolutely no farm at all throughout the game.

On the other hand, there's the school of thought which goes, supports take no cs throughout the laning phase. But once laning ends and everyone farms when they can, the support gets just as much as the next guy. I can see this working out relatively well with, for example, top lane Naut who went gp10 tanky giving up some farm in favour of the support Ashe/GP.

The latter is likely to prevail if there are no true 0cs champions left in play; otherwise, it is in most cases more gold efficient to concentrate the available farm on the APC and ADC until they are at 6 items and 3 elixirs, or just about there. I mean, why do you think the jungle meta has shifted from "tDPS with wriggles" to "tanky ccbot with 2gp10s who's expected to give wraiths wolves blue to mid, red to adc and doubles to top/bot"?

[Silvercrow]

I expect my support to be absolutely 0 cs, except for random creeps taken on accident, and build around that idea. Support Cho, GP, Galio, whoever are still played around this - the defining criterion for a support, in my opinion, is that s/he can keep on being useful on absolutely no farm at all throughout the game.

Yes, and under this criterion, support Chogath has one spell (Rupture) and is just a piece of meat otherwise. He needs some items to be able to enter the enemy and get well-placed feral screams and feasts after like 30 minutes. Leona and alistar get away with it with their abilities. Cho does not.

This is fine if you're Janna or something. It doesn't work for Cho.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Silvercrow

[Kiriane]

Silence and the biggest objective control in the game don't count? Huh, that's new. Also, supportsticks silence and fear have shorter range, among other things. It's a matter of positioning. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. And after getting Rylai's - or whatever - and stacking R, he's got OVER 9000 HIT POINTS. (Or 3000. Fine. And it might be EHP instead if you build resistances.) That's kind of like being Vlad except more cc-y and less damage-y.

...oh crap, are we having a reasoned discussion or just an argument? It's so hard to tell over the internet.

[eclipse]

I'm enjoying inter bot games more than I should. ;/

- Biggest game was me at 10/3/2, and our side losing badly. . .because the kill count by the time all was said and done was 13/60. It was an interesting experience, and I've learned that if I'm solo against Caitlyn and Zilean in bottom, I am eight hundred ways of screwed.

- Weirdest twist of fate was someone chiding me on my choice of Silver Bolts first, then me playing Vayne somewhat competently.

- My first choice of skill is usually Condemn, but if I don't think I'll be able to use it before level 2, I'll go Silver Bolts instead. Level 1 Tumble is if I think I'm paired with a troll, and don't think I have enough Flash uses to save my sorry hide; so far, that hasn't happened.

- After doing some testing between Berserker's Greaves and Super Fast Shoes, I've come to the conclusion that I can get away with the former if the other guys are competent and can keep me from going squish. Otherwise, I need the extra speed to outrun enemies that are left behind.

- If I'm facing a lot of armored units, Last Whisper isn't a bad idea.

- Funniest game was a Xin player who had to leave, so he requested that everyone push at 17:00 or so. We managed to finish the game before he was forced to disconnect, so it was all cool. It helped that he was a decent player, because he was doing the lion's share of dragging the team through.

- I have a new appreciation for the bull (I do not give a damn if we lost, that player was damn good at support).

- Should get back to CS practice, when I don't end exactly at the time I need to leave.

[Kiriane]

If your champ has a cc of any kind, you can bait the bots into tower diving you at level 3. This is actually rather a lot of fun.

As for the movement boots: don't you have Tumble? I don't think I know anyone good at this game who builds anything but aspd boots on adcs. If you're getting hit, it's a pretty good sign that you need to work on positioning, especially considering those are bots you're playing against.

[Silvercrow]

Silence and the biggest objective control in the game don't count? Huh, that's new. Also, supportsticks silence and fear have shorter range, among other things. It's a matter of positioning. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. And after getting Rylai's - or whatever - and stacking R, he's got OVER 9000 HIT POINTS. (Or 3000. Fine. And it might be EHP instead if you build resistances.) That's kind of like being Vlad except more cc-y and less damage-y.

Yea, support Fiddle has the same problem which is why it's not played terribly often (I only see Curse play it with any regularity). He has it a little better though, because Dark Wind's range is longer than Feral Scream and Terrify is much more reliable than Rupture. I would still advocate giving Fiddle some farm (again, not a lot, but enough to stay afloat). He also lanes better than Cho which makes him more desirable as a support.

And yes, exactly, Cho is fine after he gets Rylai's, Frozen Heart, or w/e. So he needs to actually be able to finish that item instead of subsisting on Philo, HoG, level 1 boots and a stream of Wards/Oracles like many other supports can.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Silvercrow

[eclipse]

If your champ has a cc of any kind, you can bait the bots into tower diving you at level 3. This is actually rather a lot of fun.

As for the movement boots: don't you have Tumble? I don't think I know anyone good at this game who builds anything but aspd boots on adcs. If you're getting hit, it's a pretty good sign that you need to work on positioning, especially considering those are bots you're playing against.

While there's some things I should avoid almost always (Nidalee's spears), there's others that I can't see until they're on top of me (Sion's spitting), and still others that I don't think unlock from you unless you do something drastic (Malphite's pizza slicer). For the life of me, I can't figure out how to dodge Swain's anything, and my "solution" has been to use everyone else as sacrifices while I go to town on him.

[peener weener]

I'm enjoying inter bot games more than I should. ;/

- Biggest game was me at 10/3/2, and our side losing badly. . .because the kill count by the time all was said and done was 13/60. It was an interesting experience, and I've learned that if I'm solo against Caitlyn and Zilean in bottom, I am eight hundred ways of screwed.

- Weirdest twist of fate was someone chiding me on my choice of Silver Bolts first, then me playing Vayne somewhat competently.

- My first choice of skill is usually Condemn, but if I don't think I'll be able to use it before level 2, I'll go Silver Bolts instead. Level 1 Tumble is if I think I'm paired with a troll, and don't think I have enough Flash uses to save my sorry hide; so far, that hasn't happened.

- After doing some testing between Berserker's Greaves and Super Fast Shoes, I've come to the conclusion that I can get away with the former if the other guys are competent and can keep me from going squish. Otherwise, I need the extra speed to outrun enemies that are left behind.

- If I'm facing a lot of armored units, Last Whisper isn't a bad idea.

- Funniest game was a Xin player who had to leave, so he requested that everyone push at 17:00 or so. We managed to finish the game before he was forced to disconnect, so it was all cool. It helped that he was a decent player, because he was doing the lion's share of dragging the team through.

- I have a new appreciation for the bull (I do not give a damn if we lost, that player was damn good at support).

- Should get back to CS practice, when I don't end exactly at the time I need to leave.

A few things:

There really is no reason at all to get Silver Bolts at level 1 over Tumble. Like, really none at all. Tumble is way more useful, and really, silver bolts doesn't really make any difference at level 1. Your level 2 skill varies, I guess, but you'll want tumble first almost always.

Take Zerk's. Boots of swiftness aren't really effective at all. On an ad carry, zerk's is the obviously superior choice. On Vayne, you already have an dash and a knockback/stun, and besides, she scales way better with as.

[Grace]

While there's some things I should avoid almost always (Nidalee's spears), there's others that I can't see until they're on top of me (Sion's spitting), and still others that I don't think unlock from you unless you do something drastic (Malphite's pizza slicer). For the life of me, I can't figure out how to dodge Swain's anything, and my "solution" has been to use everyone else as sacrifices while I go to town on him.

K so time to clarify some things. Sion's Cryptic Gaze (the one you described) isn't a skillshot, it's a targeted spell. You can't really dodge that.

To deal with Swain: When that circle appears, tumble out of it (or if you have Boots1 you can walk out of it with decent enough reaction time) The other spells are targeted, so they really can't be avoided :/

[Kiriane]

Swain bot uses the slow > snare combo. You can't walk out of it. Tumble yes, walk no - I got real mad at this one guy I laned mid against because he was forcing me to Valkyrie out of his harass combo. You avoid Sion and Malphite and every other targeted spell by staying out of its range. And you avoid Karthus by, uh, er...

Well, like I said, when I run 3gp10 I can consistently pick up a big item while still feeding my ward addiction, and all on 0 cs. I think this works out best for everyone involved!

[eclipse]

*takes notes, will see if I can outrun things with Greaves, and will try the Swain stuff once I see him*

Since tonight was full of competent people, it was level 1 Condemn. It also helped that the bots decided to hug the wall, and the Koggie player was paying attention (so he could finish what I stunned).

I don't trust a random team to keep me out of danger (nothing like watching Blitz outrunning ME while he was at 2/3 health with Mana Barrier at ready and I was about to die), so I use Heal. I counter Karthus by kicking his ass before he finishes singing/team Heal.

I counter Brand by running like a pansy. I counter melee fighters by using Mundo as a wall.

EDIT: Ohey, a little bit of CS time. Doing this a touch differently:

- My usual starting kit is bought; no recall otherwise

- No Silver Bolts for now

- Practicing from purple base

- The jump in CS was me figuring out how to have Vayne attack waves; I expect this to go higher the more I practice

CS practice 1: 51

CS practice 2: 62

CS practice 3: 55 (I was being stupid and attacking the towers more than the creeps)

CS practice 4: 65

Edited October 10, 2012 by eclipse

[Kiriane]

You're starting with boots+3, right? Starting d-blade makes you rely on the +10 AD quite a bit - it's very noticeable!

As for Karthus, the actual answer is buy a red elixir. It won't save you if you're at like 10 hp, but it's often the difference between escaping with 20hp and dying.

[Kiriane]

wards win games lol

that's why clg.eu had zero wards on the map since the second baron

[Grace]

ahahahahahahaha totes

[eclipse]

You're starting with boots+3, right? Starting d-blade makes you rely on the +10 AD quite a bit - it's very noticeable!

As for Karthus, the actual answer is buy a red elixir. It won't save you if you're at like 10 hp, but it's often the difference between escaping with 20hp and dying.

All those numbers were with regular boots and three potions (no recall in that time frame). I found that I did a lot better when I shot at the spellcasting creeps first, then threw a shot at the melee ones right before they dropped. It wasn't perfect, but it helped.

EDIT: Will keep that in mind when I'm not strapped for cash.

Edited October 11, 2012 by eclipse