Is it possible to make an Est that's a high tier character?

[FrostyFireMage]

Most Ests like Nino and Donnel are considered subpar units, but is there any way for an Est to be a character that's highly recommended?

[Espinosa]

Sure. Combine BEXP with unique utility (e.g. exclusive access to unique equipment).

We also haven't agreed on what makes an Est an Est. Are Ross and Donnel Ests? Clearly, somebody that joins so early can be babied/rigged into a competent unit within an efficient run (with efficiency disregarded, nothing is wrong with an Est character).

[Anouleth]

Ests are by definition bad, so no.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Going by what is considered an Est, at least according to the FE Wiki, we DO have an Est that is High Tier, for all the wrong reason

Theres actually two!

Edited August 14, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[PKLucas531]

Isn't Sara considered an Est

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Sara is that Est who is High Tier for all the wrong reason

Mostly because the way that she become High Tier is not the way that many would think she is. She is not cool at combat with Wrath and Prayer and have OMGHAX growth and shit like that.

She just have High Staff Rank(B -> A with Seals IIRC?) and Elite(which might be superflous in and on itself)

Don't misinterpret that "all the wrong reason" part though

Also Est is High Tier in FE2!

But FE2 does not exist

Edited August 14, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[Tables]

As others have said, define Est.

It's not too hard to imagine a growth based character being one of the best in their game in a later edition, but you need the right conditions. Lets suppose for now an 'Est' is a character who joins considerably weaker than the average enemy in their chapter, at a low level, and would end up as a better than average character at equal levels to others. So this would include Est, Nino, the trainees, Donnel etc. If you disagree with this definition, I don't care, it's what I'm using here.

So what things need to play into their strength?

1) Value to train. Perhaps the late game is difficult compared the the early game in this hypothetical game. Perhaps they have some special ability they learn which makes them worthwhile and/or saves turns (e.g. they're the only character who gets Galeforce). Unique weapons and the like could also help.

2) Ease to baby. They should be able to train up without costing much, if any time, and of course need to actually catch up and eventually surpass your other characters and not fall behind. This is the issue that generally relegates Ests to bottom or low tier - trying to play efficiently (how tier lists are generally done) means you don't have spare time to train characters, meaning they don't catch up at a reasonable rate meaning they either stay weak or cost turns to catch up. How could this be different later? Maybe an EXP formula that makes them easier to catch up (think Sacred Stones trainee EXP combined with an FE4 style decreasing EXP gain as level increases). Maybe defend chapters near where they join where you won't lose time babying them. Maybe some other factors such as big promotion gains, very fast growths (think Donnel) and the like.

3) Most likely, a mount. Possibly not needed, but being mounted tends to be a big advantage to your position on tier lists, especially when that mount has wings.

There's lots of other things that could factor in, but just to give a quick idea, imagine if Donnel's village counted as a tier 0 class (so he'd gain EXP as though he were 20+ levels below the enemy) which capped at level 10 and automatically promoted to one of Wyvern Rider, Fighter or Mercenary in a similar way to FE8 trainees (you could still get back to Villager with a Second Seal). Oh and let's also suppose late game was tougher/earlygame was easier. I reckon that'd be enough for Donnel to get right up the tier list - perhaps not to Avatar tier, but maybe to high.

[Nobody]

The only reason they are considered bad is because tier list are based on efficient play. I couldn't care less about it, so est are quite cool for me, there's no reason to change the archetype.

[Snowy_One]

Yes. The big problem with Est's is that they often join late (meaning even if they are overpowered upon leveling up you won't have them for long), often have relatively poor base stats (meaning it's hard for them to get a kill), and usually don't end up THAT much stronger than your other units, if they're stronger at all. That's not set in stone, however, and it can change. IMO, the easiest way would be...

1) Paragon. Make it locked too so it doesn't just get shuffled around.

2) VERY high growth rates. Don't hesitate to make them the highest in the game either! The whole point of an Est is their power!

3) Better bases. Maybe not awesome bases or anything, but make it so that it is at least feasible for them to function without help. Maybe roughly equal to a 15/0 or a 20/0 of the same class.

[Trickster]

Pelleas can be good, even if you just reduce him down to a staff bot on the harder difficulties.

[dondon151]

1. flying with a base level close to 10

2. ability to use warp/rescue

paragon can save a midgame unit (see sun from TRS) but it's not going to do jack shit for a unit who joins later than that.

Edited August 14, 2013 by dondon151

[deleted35362]

Most Ests like Nino and Donnel are considered subpar units, but is there any way for an Est to be a character that's highly recommended?

design the chapter they join in to have opportunities to level up the character without having to baby them.

...frosty fire sage, that avatar is amazing.

[shadykid]

design the chapter they join in to have opportunities to level up the character without having to baby them.

...frosty fire sage, that avatar is amazing.

this wouldn't really matter, seeing as generally there still isn't an actual point to training them (besides lol hey look at this growth unit after feeding him/her everything)

[Baldrick]

If you designed the final boss so that he had 100 HP and defenses such that he could only be damaged by the Lord or the Est character, the Lord doing 1 damage and the Est doing 20, that would do it.

The non-cheap way is to make their training as painless as possible, and make them able to do something unique in the final chapters.

[X-Naut]

High tier is a stretch unless they make the rest of the game easier on their own merits. Unless they do something like FE5 Sara again I wouldn't expect them to be higher than upper mid.

That said, making them less of a pain to train would improve the chances of them being able to contribute something unless the rest of the game is Warp-spam, in which case their only chance is becoming part of the Warp team.

[darkkfan]

FE11 Wolf and Sedgar are a strange mix of an est and a prepromote and they are pretty generally considered "high tier". Just look to them for a decent model (they wouldn't necessarily have to be prepromotes either).

Of course, you could argue that they aren't true "ests", in which case I'd direct you to all the above posts asking you to "define an est".

[Nobody]

Well, maybe they could put some weaker enemies on a part of the map that you get the est and some maps after that as well. That would make training then significantly easier.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Nobody

[Phoenix Wright]

it would also serve as a nice incentive to train them. at least for people like me who prioritize efficient EXP allocation.

[Quintessence]

Ests are by definition bad, so no.

This, definitely this. By Est archetype, I understand a recruitable unit that appears by lategame, that is underleveled, has regular~low bases, has high growths (and thus, the potential of being OP) but at base can't stand to enemies strong by then.

I may consider them being AT LEAST by Mid Tier because availability and contributions weigh too much for placing a unit, and they barely contribute only if you speed-train them, feed them kills or assign them Paragon. One thing is to make them usable and another thing is to place them in high tier. An example is like making Pelleas get to lv 12~ with Paragon by 4-5 and make him competent for endgame.

[Parrhesia]

Unless Farina counts, no, but she can actually fight without being a hindrance so I'd disqualify her from counting as an Est, as such.

[Trickster]

This, definitely this. By Est archetype, I understand a recruitable unit that appears by lategame, that is underleveled, has regular~low bases, has high growths (and thus, the potential of being OP) but at base can't stand to enemies strong by then.

I may consider them being AT LEAST by Mid Tier because availability and contributions weigh too much for placing a unit, and they barely contribute only if you speed-train them, feed them kills or assign them Paragon. One thing is to make them usable and another thing is to place them in high tier. An example is like making Pelleas get to lv 12~ with Paragon by 4-5 and make him competent for endgame.

Like I said earlier, you can do this or just make him a staff bot, since if you some how didn't train Laura, Rhys, or Miccy his only competition for late game stave user is Loliver, which is well, bad since you're required to bring Miccy into the final chapter and there's only one rexaura.

[Refa]

Tiltyu's not bad. If you miraculously get her to promotion before Chapter 5, she can use staves, I guess. More importantly, she has some pretty bro children.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Tiltyu is an est?

[Refa]

Yes? People complain about her growths a lot, but honestly they're pretty good save for magic...Which she has Wrath and super powerful thunder tomes to compensate for.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Her growth is worse than Siggy

#flawless logic