Advantages of Armored Units

[Rehab]

I think I'd prefer to give them their own strengths to justify their downsides, to make using them more unique, rather than eliminating their downsides altogether and make them more like everybody else. FE already sometimes runs the risk of its units functioning kinda homogenously.

I'm actually just all pouty that nobody responds to or riffs on my dumb overcomplicated fire emblem ideas but don't tell anyone

Edited September 3, 2013 by Rehab

[Jotari]

I think I'd prefer to give them their own strengths to justify their downsides, to make using them more unique, rather than eliminating their downsides altogether and make them more like everybody else. FE already sometimes runs the risk of its units functioning kinda homogenously.

I'm actually just all pouty that nobody responds to or riffs on my dumb overcomplicated fire emblem ideas but don't tell anyone

I thought it was a good idea, just far too complicated to be an innate trait of all units in a class.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

The sad thing about FE6 knights is the fact that they are one of the least durable unit in the game from my exp >_>

Kinda like Wallace

Edited September 3, 2013 by JSND

[Rehab]

I thought it was a good idea, just far too complicated to be an innate trait of all units in a class.

It might be, but horses have had Canto for awhile, which I'd estimate to be at least an equal boon, and Awakening started dipping its feet into more complicated class-related skills, so I think something like it might be feasible to work into a future entry.

Maybe fortify could be a universal command anybody could do, but whether it successfully pushes an enemy back could depend on whether the unit has more constitution than the attacker, so that the armors would end up being far and away the best at it naturally (if the developers can manage to get the stats right)

[Irysa]

replace armors with tier 1 great knights equivilants. allow them to mount and dismount with a boost to speed whilst mounted, and a boost to def whilst unmounted. limit movement to -1 from infantry average as unmounted, and equal (maybe +1?) to infantry whilst mounted.

whilst I've entertained this idea before, it feels redundant because an idea that might help fix armors involves giving them an attribute of an op unit type lol.

[Nobody]

Wouldn't Barth actually have higher risk of death than some units with existing luck and good avo (knowing the game's hit rates and all)? But even given the fact that he does withstand an enemy phase, he'll have trouble connecting with his own attacks.

Yes, Clarine is probably a better tank than all of the FE6 knights put together.

If supported with Rutger (and dieck) this isn't even a question, because then she's the best tank in the game. And all the enemies attack her lol

IMO fire emblem's Knight class makes no sense. It's useless and in most other games, the knights are equivalent to FE's cavaliers. It would be cool if they changed the knight class to a cavalier with slight more def/str and slight less skl/spd, just like the great knight class (see, here they used knight right).

Edited September 3, 2013 by Nobody

[Elieson]

Perhaps it's not that knights are the problem, but the enemy structure more so.

I mean obviously Wendy and Bors and Wallace are chump units, but I think that restructuring maps in a way that there were actual purposes to leaving Knights near the back would be a decent idea. I keep thinking Cog of Destiny and Pale Flower of Darkness, where Knight niche actually worked for a benefit due to enemy spawns (with high move) spawned at the starting point of a chapter.

I dunno, knights as a flank-protection class seem useful in theory, it's just so rarely considered/applied. Considering we, the heroes, are pretty much always storming into enemy territory, one might think that knights would be designed exclusively for rear defense instead of frontline offense.

[Espinosa]

Yes, Clarine is probably a better tank than all of the FE6 knights put together.

If supported with Rutger (and dieck) this isn't even a question, because then she's the best tank in the game. And all the enemies attack her lol

tbh she never really gets high-levelled enough to tank, considering how far away she is from promotion, how slowly she gains exp, that Saul wants all the levels and heals he can get, that Clarine is one of the few mounted units in this game's long maps for a while... Phew. And Rutger and (earlygame) Dieck all have better things to do than stand next to Clarine.

And that's not even counting playthroughs with extremely blessed prepromoted Thanies that speed up map completion greatly.

[Baldrick]

Maybe fortify could be a universal command anybody could do, but whether it successfully pushes an enemy back could depend on whether the unit has more constitution than the attacker, so that the armors would end up being far and away the best at it naturally (if the developers can manage to get the stats right)

The problem with that idea (from a make-armours-useful standpoint) is that in most FE chapters, you're on the move, trying to get to the throne/rout as quickly as possible, and the enemies aren't threatening enough for an ability like that to be valuable.

I've always thought the best way to make armours useful is to increase enemy density/threat level to a point where your army is moving at a rate where armours won't get left behind (FE12 did this in theory, but in practice I believe armours get doubled consistently). With that skill, they'd have the niche to be on the frontlines, assuming their defensive stats can hold up to the assault.

[Redwall]

Armors are excellent in earlygame FE12 H4 up to Ch. 2 (Knight for the Prologue, Arran in Chs. 1 and 2), but are pointless immediately after. They're not that useful in H3 efficiency since guys like Luke and Rody can clean up weakened enemies without fear of getting hit with Vantage+; however, H3 does allow the possibility of stacking a bunch of +Def shards on one of the big three (MU, Palla, Catria) and snowballing in the arena. The problem with armors is largely due to map design IMO; even without Warp-skipping, you don't really need a super-tank all that often (especially not in most of the other FE games, where the enemy strength just ain't very high), and generally prefer someone who can actually double and ORKO things. You'll have some occasional Oswin (actually Oswin is probably even better than I remember) or Wolf/Sedgar action, but FE continues to be a mount/flier-dominated game.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Redwall

[Icon of Sin]

Armorknights would probably be a lot better if FE had more defensive maps that aren't solved by killing the boss, but even when they do, like in FE5, the game tends to throw methods to easily fight playable Armorknights, namely the massive number of Hammers, Thunder Mages and Dark Mages. At the same time, mounted knights typically trade in a bit of Strength and Defense for Speed, Movement, Resistance (sometimes) and maybe a few more goodies like canto, complete weapon triangle, use of magic and/or staves, flight, etc.

My suggestion would be to simply drop the division between Cavaliers, Armorknights and even arguably fliers and have them be able to equip armor, shields and mounts that raise or lower a few stats. At the same time, I'd also do that for fighter type units (Fighter, Mercenary, Myrmidon), soldier, mage and thief/bandit types, but chances of that happening would be of flying pigs farting rainbows with bacon clenched in their teeth.

[NinjaMonkey]

Why do Knights only have four movement?

That's funny, I could swear that both Meg and PoR!Gatrie have 5 movement...

*Goes to check*

Yeah, they do.

Edited September 3, 2013 by NinjaMonkey

[CT075]

itt ninjamonkey is good at missing the point

[NinjaMonkey]

I don't care about turncounts, so Armours having less movement than most other units doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Edited September 3, 2013 by NinjaMonkey

[Jotari]

They should take a leaf out of Hector's book and have the same initial movement as other units but not gain any upon promotion.

[Refa]

I don't care about turncounts, so Armours having less movement than most other units doesn't bother me in the slightest.

if their only problem was move we wouldn't have a gazillion threads about OH MY GOD GUYS I JUST REALIZED ARMORS ARE LOW TIER

coming next time- Archers: FE's Proverbial Whipping Boy

[Nobody]

Which is better: Archers or armored units? I'm inclined to say archers, at least they can reach the enemy.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Nobody

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Archers

Because they are amazing in FE12

[Baldrick]

Archers aren't considered to be as badly outclassed by bow knights as armour knights are by horses/fliers

[The Void]

Maybe Generals and Great Knights should be merged into one class.

If Generals really don't have enough going for them compared to Great Knights, then how about they become one class who can mount and dismount?

[Baldrick]

If you do that, you might as well merge them with cavaliers/paladins. They're already fulfilling much the same niche plotwise.

[The Void]

Okay sure.

[Magical CC]

Here is the best ideal: let the generals have the ability to ram into a wall/door and break it, they will take some damage just for the balance. Extremely useful in in-door maps.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Here is the best ideal: let the generals have the ability to ram into a wall/door and break it, they will take some damage just for the balance. Extremely useful in in-door maps.

So, Wendy break that Wall

*break

Wendy: Am I Top Tier now?

Actually, no. Lance, Miledy, Percival, Alan, Zealot, Marcus. Rescue Roy's lazy ass and blitz through the map like ussual

[Tamanoir]

Actually, Knights have the same problems as Archers.

1 ) Maps aren't designed for them to be usefull (Importance of ennemy phase, not enough defensive maps)

2 )They aren't necessary bad, they just have to complete against an incredibly broken class that do what they do, but better (Mounted, Mages)

The GBA games are when the Knights are the worse, for 2 reasons.

1 ) Avoid is utterly broken in these games due to the basic AVO formula + 2 RN

2 ) Related to the above : The addition of Poison weapon. What is the use of taking no damamge if you'll die of poison.

The one Iremember is E29/H31 (Denning chapter).

This makes Ninian a better Tank than Oswin, because she will never take a hit. (Or guy, for a more realistic options), this is just ridiculous.

And last, Dragons have actually the same problem as armour, except Anti-Dragon weapons are generally rarer, and Wyvern can at least fly (WyvernKnight surpass generally Armour completely, except maybe against Archers/Wind mages),while Manakete's Dragonstone are incredible weapons.

And IS seems to think the best solution is to crate BowArmour...