Why are bases > growths?

[Quintessence]

100 dodges gets you a level

worst case scenario: assume fe4/13's exp system where dodges don't mean +1 exp.

and horrible bases won't make you dodge! unless you want FE6's eclipse!

[Refa]

I don't know, every time I've played FE6 on hard mode, Allen and Lance were pretty useful, especially on chapters like 7 or 8, considering ferrying Roy to the throne on this game is pretty essential. With swords they were also pretty great for the western isles. You also have to consider that by the time you get percival, you already have Miledy, probably promoted, who can do everything he does, but better. I'm not saying Percival is bad, by no means, he's actually one of the better pre promotes in FE and TOP 5 in FE6, just that I think it would be harder to play FE6 without both Allen and Lance than without him

I don't know why you'd constantly ferry Roy to the throne if you're not LTCing, it makes it much easier to give him some levels so he can do important things like last Boltings and recruit units like Zealot who are IN THE MIDDLE OF DANGER (plus for all people complain about Roy, his early game combat is on par with Alan/Lance). Perceival can do a lot of things that Miledy can't (those weapon ranks), so I don't get why you think she's the same unit, but better; regardless, I never said Perceival was better than Miledy (I don't think so!).

And I think FE6 would be harder to play without Allen and Lance too, although not because they're particularly good or anything but because you kind of need more combat units.

[Baldrick]

You're all wrong; Roy is the best unit in the game. FE6 without Roy, it'd be impossible to beat even the first chapter.

worst case scenario: assume fe4/13's exp system where dodges don't mean +1 exp.

and horrible bases won't make you dodge! unless you want FE6's eclipse!

OK, the unit's purpose is as a designated shopper/pillager

100 axes to the face would have also sufficed

[Nobody]

And I think FE6 would be harder to play without Allen and Lance too, although not because they're particularly good or anything but because you kind of need more combat units.

That's exactly my point. You are in the need of good combat units in the beginning of FE6. With a bit of effort, Lance and Allam can be good combat units (especially if you decide to focus on one of them). If the game had many good combat units, them yes, they would be pretty mediocre, but it doesn't for a while. I mean, in the beginning of the game, only Marcus, Rutger and maybe Dieck have better combat than them. By the time you get percival you already have more good combat units, so that's exactly what I meant when I said that IMO they contribute more. Just like Edward contributes more than Mia in FE10 despite being a worse unit, just because Mia is among the gods of the crimean mercenaries, while edward is with the chumps of the dawn brigade.

What I'm trying to say is that availability is also very important. Maybe the most important thing of it all.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nobody

[Quintessence]

OK, the unit's purpose is as a designated shopper/pillager

100 axes to the face would have also sufficed

Won't lv up because he'd die :p

And can't be a dancer/bard o.O

[Refa]

You're all wrong; Roy is the best unit in the game. FE6 without Roy, it'd be impossible to beat even the first chapter.

Nowai, what about Merlinus? He like....has a moustache! And looks like a walrus!

[Quintessence]

Merlinus visits villages/10

actually, has somebody lv'd up Merlinus? Or got him to lv 20?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Quintessence

[BBM]

That's exactly my point. You are in the need of good combat units in the beginning of FE6. With a bit of effort, Lance and Allam can be good combat units (especially if you decide to focus on one of them). If the game had many good combat units, them yes, they would be pretty mediocre, but it doesn't for a while. I mean, in the beginning of the game, only Marcus, Rutger and maybe Dieck have better combat than them. By the time you get percival you already have more good combat units, so that's exactly what I meant when I said that IMO they contribute more. Just like Edward contributes more than Mia in FE10 despite being a worse unit, just because Mia is among the gods of the crimean mercenaries, while edward is with the chumps of the dawn brigade.

What I'm trying to say is that availability is also very important. Maybe the most important thing of it all.

Exactly, you need good combat units at the beginning. After that, not so much. Alan and Lance don't have particularly good combat at the beginning. TBH they're not even that much better than Roy for the first few chapters because they don't out-damage him by much (especially if he uses Rapier) and they can only take like one more hit than him? And I think his AVO is (slightly) better due to more LUK. So all they're really doing is chipping at the same usefulness as Roy. By the time they become better than him, you have Zealot and Dieck and Rutger, and once they start passing Zealot, you don't even need a whole bunch of combat units for chipping anymore, and then before they can start ORKOing you have Miledy and Percival and the like.

Availability is important, and it's why Lance and Alan are still among the most useful combat units in the game. But that's still after Marcus and Percival and Miledy and Dieck and Rutger and probably Zealot too, because being the best for a time is still more useful than being replaceable the whole game. Look at FE7. Athos is there for one chapter and is still arguably more useful than someone like Dorcas or Bartre, who are there the whole time.

[commonguard]

Units with good bases often come with better weapon/staff ranks as well. Giving them even more flexibility, potential damage output and utility. Although in a game like FE12 on H3, H4 and even H2, where even your good SwordMasters will have trouble doubling enemies in the mid and late game chapters, it's important to have a good mix of growth units in addition to units that can baby those growth units.

[Refa]

Also I may have some negative bias against Alan and Lance for getting screwed over like 90% of the times I play FE6.

[Nobody]

Also I may have some negative bias against Alan and Lance for getting screwed over like 90% of the times I play FE6.

Haha that might explain something, because I have some positive bias, since at least one of them gets blessed the times I played it. So they're totally different units for us.

That's one advantage of units like percival and Marcus, they're (almost) the same for everyone, there's no thing like being RNG screwed

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

I'm not sure why Alan and Lance being replaceable by Percival is such a big point against them. Yes they are, but Alan is replaceable by Lance and Zealot and so on. They're all replaceable. We're not aiming for uniqueness here. We just want a good sturdy unit with high move. Percival is replaceable by promoted Alan or Lance, albeit by sacrificing reliability. They're all Paladins.

What we are aiming for, then, is not to have a unique unit--Percival isn't really--but to have a good sturdy unit who can get the job done. Alan and Lance can.

Alan and Lance have half the game over Percival, and honestly not sure why this is so consistently discredited.

[Irysa]

its honestly worth remembering that marcus repeatedly chips enemy units down to OHKO range on FE6 HM early on with his iron sword. If that EXP is going anywhere it may as well go to Alance and Roy. <_<

Edited September 11, 2013 by Irysa

[dondon151]

Growths > bases in LTC runs, but maybe not in normal efficiency.

it really depends on how you consider them relative to each other. some would define "growths" as the value of having high vs. low growth rates whereas others would define "growths" as stats coming from level ups. in games where you can expect to level up 30-40 times over the course of the game (FE10, FE13), stats from level ups are almost mandatory for most units to stay relevant, but it still may not be true that having high growth rates is important.

jill would be pretty bad with worse bases than she currently has. if you consider the former paradigm, as is, she needs almost every resource to get going, which illustrates more that bases > growths in LTC runs. but obviously she does need to grow, because she starts in tier 1.

its honestly worth remembering that marcus repeatedly chips enemy units down to OHKO range on FE6 HM early on with his iron sword. If that EXP is going anywhere it may as well go to Alance and Roy. <_<

or you can just ORKO the enemies. marcus can do that pretty well until chapter 8x if he doesn't get unlucky with his growths. i'm about 100% convinced that an FE6 LTC would not use both allen and lance, and about 90% sure that it wants to use neither in the long term.

Edited September 11, 2013 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

Those 60 to 70 hit rates with the silver lance are oh so appealing. Granted once you can get him a steel sword you can have more reasonable hit rates and still KO axe units, and silver lance against sword users is not as terrible (except sword units tend to have higher avo to begin with) as against axe users.

[Refa]

Those 60 to 70 hit rates with the silver lance are oh so appealing. Granted once you can get him a steel sword you can have more reasonable hit rates and still KO axe units, and silver lance against sword users is not as terrible (except sword units tend to have higher avo to begin with) as against axe users.

Marcus is the only one with decent hit on them. :p I dunno about ORKOing, but maybe I just didn't get Marcus enough EXP?

[Snowy_One]

A unit with good bases and half-decent growths can utterly dominate. If you start with 12 STR and the endgame average is about 24, you only need a 50% STR growth, which while high isn't THAT high, to cap out assuming you started at 20/1. Plus, with later-units, they won't get to grow that much simply due to time constraints, so base stats matter. It's one of the big problems with Est-types. Even if they're super-good when trained it's hard to get them the training they need in the time available

[Narga_Rocks]

Marcus is the only one with decent hit on them. :p I dunno about ORKOing, but maybe I just didn't get Marcus enough EXP?

If we are talking mercs, then Marcus silver lance may actually be your best option. I think he has more than a 15 point hit lead on like Alan, so even Slim Lance Alan loses hit. Like you, I don't know about ORKOing them, but I think dondon was mostly talking about how Silver Lance Marcus can OHKO all those axe guys? Well, sometimes. When he hits. Tallying up 65 listed hit against 4 or 5 enemies doesn't seem that reliable to me.

[Refa]

Perhaps he was referring to NM? Pretty sure Marcus consistently ORKOes there for quite a while.

EDIT No wait, that doesn't make sense...

Edited September 11, 2013 by Refa

[BBM]

Except Percival isn't really replaceable by Alan and/or Lance because the chances of either being as good as HM Percival when he joins is rather low. As Refa showed, Alan needs to be 20/9 to match both SPD and STR (20/7 for just STR), and Lance needs to be 20/15 (20/2 for just SPD). And FE6 is one of the games where it's actually difficult to have overkill combat, because of how high enemy HP is. Percival having those extra stats plus better weapon ranks is often the difference between a 1RKO and a 2RKO. Percival is the best Paladin from when he arrives to the end of the game, whereas Alance might maaaybe be the best for like... 2-3 chapters between when they pass Zealot and Percival arrives, except they still don't have a meaningful advantage over Zealot because they still can't ORKO.

Saying Alance don't get credited for their availability is also false. They're still high tier units- just not top tier.

[dondon151]

Perhaps he was referring to NM? Pretty sure Marcus consistently ORKOes there for quite a while.

EDIT No wait, that doesn't make sense...

oh, wait, i've been playing too much speedrun FE6. yeah, i was thinking NM. still doesn't make alance any better.

[Irysa]

Well I don't disagree with that, but in HM, because Marcus is by far and large the best unit to give an enemy phase and he doesn't ORKO everything like he does in FE7 (lol fe7 marcus base str), then SOMEBODY has to mop up those kills. And Roy can't get everything.

That's not to say they get used long term though, just that they're not exactly hard to use units even in HM, despite being heavily overshadowed.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Irysa

[Refa]

I think that those kills, for the most part (sometimes it's more productive to give a kill to Wolt due to positioning) are fair game for Alan and Lance. How you feel they make use of those kills is a different matter, lol.

[Nobody]

I'll be sincere: when i play fe6 i avoid giving marcus kills, because i feel they're better given to other units. IMO, that makes chapter like 4 or 7 actually easier because then alan and lance doesn't suck. It's not to say that i don't use marcus, quite the opposite, since giving the weaker units kills is way easier using him with an iron sword and he is also extremely useful for dealing with stronger enemies or bosses. Thanks to that i never felt zealot was that good, because by the time he joins alan and lance are already able to hold their weight (and i don't ignore supports in this game, so alan and lance already have a b support iirc by the time zealot arrives, which made them even better). I guess it depends of the playstyle of the person playing, but i find my way easier for me.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nobody

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I used both Alan and Lance EXTENSIVELY and I still found Zealot to be extremely useful, to be honest

For one, FE6 is not exactly a limited deployment game, and the cast before he joined are not exactly good

Mid Game, I even throw in Bartre because Bartre is awesome

Edited September 11, 2013 by JSND