Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[eclipse]

Where did you get I don't want to be lynched? From the Weapons comment, I presume? First, that was in response to Euklyd, who was demanding answers of Weapons who I think was joking. And second, the difference between me bringing up Weapons' offhand comment about me in response to a third player and you being intrigued by the possibility of defending yourself against Bizz... it's huge. Personally, in your position, I might have called Bizz out on "your scumread is just vibes, can you elaborate?" and if that didn't work, called BS. But that's not the same as "hmm, I look forward to seeing your case, should be interesting."

I don't like being lynched--I don't think anyone really does--but I think you're WAY over-reading into my post. "Why so hesitant about being lynched?" is basically you fabricating a case against me out of thin air, and moreover one that makes me sound scummy without actually having done anything scummy. Same thing with "why are you so convinced..." You're misrepping me hard here, I don't think my posts have been strong enough to appear "so convinced" about anything. This seems pretty suspicious to me, makes me want to leave my vote on you.

I don't see why you're saying you're OK with being lynched. Either you're town and you should be trying to lynch scum, or vice versa. (Or you're ITP, but whatever, the point is, a lynch of your own alignment is always bad and you're definitely your own alignment.) Shinori can prove himself no matter who the lynch is, no?

First, let's look at what you said originally:

Weapons is full of BS and I assumed that his 15/2 joke wasn't actually accusing me or Shinori of anything. I'll continue to assume that until he's helpful at all.

Eclipse's response to Bizz's forthcoming case on her is troubling to me. Townies should focus on scumhunting, and if they have to defend themselves, that's regrettable because it means someone is going after the wrong person. Eclipse being intrigued by having to defend herself? Doesn't seem to come from a pro-town mindset. I find it scummy, along with a general pattern of an odd tone in her interaction with Bizz.

##Vote: Eclipse

Refa: Shinori's role is (apparently) that he gets info on the number of scum on each day's lynch wagon. It's a protown role but I think it'd be a stretch to call him confirmed town.

pedit: cut by Bizz, I agree with most of that stuff on Eclipse

First paragraph: Doesn't tell me anything about myself.

Second paragraph: Your case is built on the fact that I'm interested in Bizz's response. Your basing this case off of what you think a townie should be doing (WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT TELLING ME WHAT TO DO?). Then, you say that a defense is "regrettable", because going after townies is wrong. This little tidbit is your explanation of how you think the game should run, and it is a fearful mindset. There's nothing "regrettable" about defense - it's another way to develop reads. By your logic, if you are town, you shouldn't be in a position to defend. This sounds like someone that's trying not to be lynched, by acting in such a way that you don't defend (and that's how I drew my conclusion). Next, here's a question for you: How does having to defend oneself benefit scum? Your tone/pattern argument is weak, as it doesn't say anything about logic.

Your case also revolves around what YOU think is correct, which is obviously not my style. I've rigged my own D1 lynch in the past, as town, because I knew it would benefit everyone else. My goal is to help the TOWN win, not to keep myself alive. If it means I die for the greater good, so be it. Next question: How is driving a lynch onto myself beneficial to my faction if I'm scum?

The REST OF THE GAME in the next post. I just felt like bringing this stuff up right now.

[eclipse]

can I throw a few things out there before we get too ingrained in the massclaim idea

1) his claimed role, while strong as fuck, can easily be faked as scum (funny that) and can "clear" scum with the right result fake.

2) i see a number of people assuming shinori is town from role alone. why? (if you want my opinion, i'm nullreading him rn because role =/= alignment)

3) I'd argue that the people that seem to be all too sure of shinori being town are more likely scum. paper/eclipse/refa/and whoever else i've missed, 11pm posting too stronk

4) massclaiming outs protective roles anyway (prime kill/hook targets), which puts our investigative roles at risk. also consider chances are (I would damn hope) that massclaim won't break the game.

that be me take on this fishy massclaim business, mateys.

If 1 is true, then 2 is automatically false. If 2 is true, then that is literally the worst possible role to give scum, short of an ITP running around. I want to see the case on me for 3, and why. I agree with 4, and can attest with my own role that massclaiming will probably not break the game (if anything, it'll confuse people).

i'm Awake

I thought about it and the issue with what Eclipse did is that she purposely messed with my scumread on her to make a point, which isn't good play to me imo. If she hadn't staged all of that I might have eventually felt better about her but she purposely acted scummy to push me into making a case on her which is unnecessary and for mental health reasons if she does anything like that again in this game I'm subbing out.

I also don't have the energy to make as big a case on anyone else now because of that, but one of the biggest reasons I voted Paperblade is that I really don't remember much that he's done aside from the Wallcrab vote and he is Very Involved in Shinori's role and that feels off to me.

I want to say Manix attempting to discredit Shinori bothers me too, but I think wrt Manix I'll wait for flips since I can't get a super solid read on him.

I could go into a very long, detailed, and probably painful post as to why I think you really should've kept that comment about me to yourself. . .but for the sake of the rest of the game, I won't. I suggest PMing me later, because posting what you did about me, especially after what happened, is really, REALLY uncool.

I agree with Manix, massclaiming seems like a really bad idea for outing protective roles and probably not going to help to much. Paper, why did you suggest that?

Actually, on reread, Paper has exactly one sentence about his reads, where he votes Wallcrab and says why. He's said a lot of stuff about Shinori's role. That, coupled with a weird suggestion and a reread of the Eclipse-Viata snit at a non-4-am time that makes me less confident of my Eclipse vote, leads to

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

Why are you following Bizz around like a lost puppy?

Manix does that kind of thing as scum tho and that's why I'm wary but I think that, after reading through his posts again, he makes a lot of good points even if his tone seems off so my read on him might be paranoia and I'm not going to focus on him today.

MUCH better. Instead of focusing on emotion, it's now content (this is why Manix wasn't on my radar up to this point).

Paper: It means it's a null tell. It was more I was just commenting on the big thing that's taken up a good chunk of this thread and was the biggest thing that stood out to me during my reading of the thread.

Uh, how the hell did you manage null reads after that slapfest? No, really; look at intent on both sides, and there should be something in there to push at least one of us (even if only slightly).

Of course they're weak to you, most people think their scumplay is good.

The fact that I only voted you after you called me out is a coincidence, I posted an idea and you reacted poorly to it. Once again you are trying to misrepresent the situation to make yourself look better

I think this is the first instance of misrepresentation that I don't have a problem with. I'm also inclined to believe Paperblade, because I WAS in Mitnala, and I had a chance to talk to him after the game about that role. I understand the logic behind it, which is why I'm perfectly fine letting Shinori prove it. He'll either PoE himself into oblivion, or there will be a lot of scum reads off of it.

@Paperblade - Oh right I forgot the second part of the reason I would rather massclaim tomorrow. Without I literally am just wasting your time, sorry.

Since Shinori isn't confirmed town, I would rather we lynch today without massclaiming, and the cop, assuming there is one, investigates Shinori overnight. In the morning, the cop claims and reveals the read he/she got on Shinori.

This would basically involve the cop suiciding, I guess, but I assume that the cop is one of the first people dying anyways since that's one of the best ways we have to confirm Shinori's alignment (as well as identifying scum), and uncertainty would make any info we get harder to use if we're doubting it all the time.

Anyways if Shinori is confirmed innocent then I'm fine with massclaiming, and if not then that tells us something about either Shinori or the claimed cop. Of course if there isn't a cop then this is useless.

Thoughts?

This works better than my idea of having a theoretical vig shoot Shinori in the face on N3.

I read this as "eclipse is making passes at me" and all I could think was "hot"

Projection, especially this kind, is a RL scumtell

(hint: stuff that's striked-out with an emoticon afterwards is usually a terrible joke)

I'm just not picking up any solid leads here, so I'm just going for a lynch. Probably once the night phase rolls around I'll start getting a better grasp of who may or may not be scum.

Talk. Interact. Build associative reads with other people. Sitting back will NOT find scum. Let's assume for a moment that you're town, and you're shot on N1. You have very little interaction with other people, so it's nigh-impossible to build associative reads off of your corpse.

Most antitown thing said all game, and obviously implies that eclipse is either:

town-with-intent-to-self-sacrifice-instead-of-advocating-other-lynches (at the most extreme)

admitting to being not-town

Sorry eclipse, but this is the most irritating thing that you do, and you have done it before. You act like you don't care if you're lynched or not, and FMPOV that shows apathy to the game in general, which isn't going to help anybody. Tell me the last time that Apathy helped net a town win and I'll send you an iTunes gift card for $5 for each instance.

Not a necessary point, tbh, and reads more like provoking more sidetracked debate. You continued on well, but this sentence (the underlined one from your quote) seems more unnecessary than helpful, and isn't gonna change anything when you just say "I don't like when people tell me what to do" when you don't know the motive behind anyone's declarations aside from the assumption that their motivation is built from their rolePM (something you're quite fond of sharing). It's a detracting point, and feels more like you're gently encouraging discussion on this subject by not offering discussion on other, more relevant subjects.

Because the majority of this post, while filled with obvious effort, isn't helping catch scum.

Read Pokemon TCG. Look at the D1 lynch. Keep in mind that it was a rigged lynch. Certain roles are better at that than others, and the role I have now is one of the better D1 mislynches (it doesn't trump Pokemon TCG, but it's pretty damn close). The best I can do with it is to step on as many toes as possible. I would also like to ask how a D1 lynch of myself, if I am scum, helps my faction.

Telling me how I'm supposed to act/where to put my vote on D1 is horrible - unless someone's role contains vastly more information, I think that it's scummy (I got off of Shinori's case because his role apparently has information that makes his demand useful, albeit misguided). Why should I listen to someone who may or may not have more information than me? Why bother controlling anyone, for that matter?

If you take that entire post in context, it was a post specifically to respond to Bizz. If you read the MIDDLE of the post, I came to the conclusion that a Bizz vote wasn't worth my time, and that the read I got was better than the way-too-many-null-reads I had at the time. Thus, it served a purpose, even if it isn't what you were expecting.

"A common misconception in a majority lynch system is that no-lynch is bad due to the notion that flips are the only source of information. While flips are useful in confirming information, there are many cases where it is clear that town is bandwagoning a player and will lead to a mislynch."

This is how I view things. To clarify, here are my statements regarding no lynching. I'm honestly not sure what your problem is when we seem to have a similar view.

My lynch > No Lynch, and I am dead serious about this.

I am playing DDR and then I will be back for an actual thorough read but Elie still feels tryhard to me fwiw

All my Jealousy. . .wait, you're playing DDR and not PPP

I think that's all of it. I agree with Paperblade more in the Paper/Manix exchange, because of my previous knowledge of the role in question, BUT I don't think massclaiming will help (role-related reasons). Manix being THAT paranoid about Shinori is suspicious, because that's what I remember most out of his last scum performance. Don't like how stubborn Elieson is regarding Refa. I don't agree with Refa's No Lynch logic (I WILL volunteer to be the lynch if it comes down to it, because it will help the game more than No Lynch), but I doubt that he's swayed anyone's stance on the issue. I think Wallcrab needs to catch up, because his Grassbridger vote came from really early stuff, and the latter has more posts since then. I think Puddingface needs to pay attention to the game, but I don't want him lynched today, due to the major lack of associative reads. Weapons is Weapons, and I get the feeling that he doesn't have much to work with.

Speaking of Elieson, he sounds jumpy. . .like, "EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE CORRECT OR TOWN LOSES RIGHT NOW!" kind of jumpy. Rest assured, town isn't going to lose on D1 due to a mislynch. My role is proof enough of that.

kirsche needs to drop rum for whisky, but the non-drunk posts are highly appreciated.

As I want Grassbridger to answer my post, my vote stays put.

[MRDRHAWK]

Alright, so far my thoughts:

-Refa's acting hella defensive right now, but he does bring up some solid points. Elieson's definitely town, and after going back and reading Manix's shit, I'm starting to think he may be scum.

-Boron's gotta be town. Something about her just tells me that she's not on the scum side of the equation.

-Eclipse seems most likely to be an indy. We don't know that there's not a third party aside from scum & town, and the way she's going is making it very hard to peg her as one or the other.

-Something about Viata rubs me the wrong way. It seems like he's firing at anybody he thinks may be scum, and is just hoping one of his plans will catch fire somehow. Sure, he is making some sense, but I just don't see this being a sound tactic.

-Paperblade seems a bit sketchy too, but I can't really figure out why that is.

##Unvote for now until I can get a better read on a couple of the others.

[eclipse]

Puddingface, you realize that if I gun for my own lynch, as independent, I am throwing the game? While I might do inexplicable things, I always have a reason for it.

[MRDRHAWK]

Puddingface, you realize that if I gun for my own lynch, as independent, I am throwing the game? While I might do inexplicable things, I always have a reason for it.

I've seen indies who purposely get themselves killed off early in an attempt to accelerate their wincon occurring.

[Percivalé]

I could go into a very long, detailed, and probably painful post as to why I think you really should've kept that comment about me to yourself. . .but for the sake of the rest of the game, I won't. I suggest PMing me later, because posting what you did about me, especially after what happened, is really, REALLY uncool.

I intended on PMing you about it later. I didn't intend for that to sound pissy towards you, I meant it sincerely. I really wish you hadn't done what you did, when I looked back on it it seemed kind of unnecessary wrt the game and caused me some huge personal problems that I'll explain to you when I PM you, but I really just cannot play if it happens again, this isn't anything against you, I really can't.

[eclipse]

I intended on PMing you about it later. I didn't intend for that to sound pissy towards you, I meant it sincerely. I really wish you hadn't done what you did, when I looked back on it it seemed kind of unnecessary wrt the game and caused me some huge personal problems that I'll explain to you when I PM you, but I really just cannot play if it happens again, this isn't anything against you, I really can't.

Fair enough.

Obviously haven't had much issue with everything else you posted, as it shifted towards the logical side.

I've seen indies who purposely get themselves killed off early in an attempt to accelerate their wincon occurring.

The hell kind of independent is that? Over here, it requires survival, which is something my own lynch won't help. Besides, if I was independent, it's technically not a mislynch, AND town doesn't have to worry about me screwing them over in the future.

[MRDRHAWK]

Like I said Eclipse, that's just the read I'm getting. Either that or you're a martyrous townie, which can be effective in itself.

[Shinori]

Go afk a few hours and get like 8 pages here. >_>

[Percivalé]

Waaah I just don't want to accidentally make you mad Eclipse, I'm a mess and having a hard time coming across the way I want to, so I'm sorry if I irked you (did you want to do the private talk after the game or?)

Anyway I still like my vote on Manix, and there's a case I could make on Elieson because I think he'd be worth voting imo, but it would take me a while to sift through his content and I probably can't do it tonight. I think Elieson is kinda scummy though. Also yeah btw Manix being unable to decide on some of his reads including his read on me bugged me too and I meant to ask him about it but I got too caught up in the other stuff, whoops. Hope his sub comes in soon.

@Poly ~self meta~ but if I don't like someone's case on me I'm going to be very loud about it. Also I have a huge complex about being mislynched and my role PM says town, so.

@Wallcrab I'M GLAD YOU NOTICED BTW I'M SO GLAD YOU NOTICED

anyway sorry for spam tonight but I'm tired, will have more content to contribute tomorrow, including Elieson case.

[Grassbridger]

Oh jeez there was a lot of stuff while I was gone for 12 hours... wall o' text coming in a bit, including responses to Boron and Eclipse who've asked me to answer stuff

[eclipse]

Waaah I just don't want to accidentally make you mad Eclipse, I'm a mess and having a hard time coming across the way I want to, so I'm sorry if I irked you (did you want to do the private talk after the game or?)

Preferably if we both manage to die (rules don't state that dead players can't talk to other dead players). I think this is something that needs to be resolved, sooner than later.

Go to bed. . .wait, why am I the one always telling you this?

[Percivalé]

I have a hard time sleeping when I think people are mad at me

[eclipse]

I have a hard time sleeping when I think people are mad at me

I can't believe I'm doing this. . .RL mafia logic. . .HELP!

Think of it this way: Staying up is a move that won't benefit your faction (in this case, your health), which will affect how you do everything else. Just as you can't control how players vote, it's nigh-impossible to control other people's moods. For example, my mood is a combination of what happens here, what happens at work, etc. Mafia's a relatively small part of the forums, and it's a game. I'm not going to be evicted from my apartment if I'm the D1 lynch, for example. Thus, your health > this game, and getting sleep is what's best for your faction. I hope that makes sense.

I'll stop spamming now

[Percivalé]

but are you mad at me

answer that and then i can stop spamming and go to bed

[Grassbridger]

Not too sure if I like Grassbridger's latest posts. His Paperblade vote seems rather suspiciously similar to Levity's, and he has quite a bit of "I agree with X" statements. It's nice that you agree with Levity (except for one point), but I'd be happier if you could explain in your own words why. Right now, it looks like you're just following Levity's lead.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

First, check the timestamps. I claimed cut by Bizz twice; in one case I saw it first and commented, in the other case (where I voted Paper) I didn't even know Bizz was voting him (due to inattention, I think, and it having been 4am). Basically I didn't like the massclaim idea from an experienced player like Paperblade; from what I've been told, NOC games are supposed to be massclaim-proof.

My initial vote against Eclipse was due to her saying that she was looking forward to defending herself, and I'll elaborate more on that below. Then I kept it on her because her vote on me seemed OMGUSy and forced.

My Paperblade vote was, as I said, due to the massclaim and general lack of reads at the time. I guess he has been prodding a few players with questions but not really giving reads, so both my points are still valid FMPOV. Role =/= alignment so I don't see how massclaim helps wrt Shinori's claimed role.

##unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger.

The more I read his IO the less I like him, his use of wording against Bizz was lame, then he went off with talking about how age/experience doesn't necessarily mean wisdom as a weak defense for a weak case. He makes a post that seems to be saying that his Bizz vote wasn't going to catch scum (seriously?), that's my main thing on him why make a vote and back it up if it won't help catch scum?

post in question

pffffff this is an awful argument, although maybe it would help if I clarified that age/experience thing:

Bizz: "I don't like how you're treating me like I've never played before"

me: "I don't know how much you've played or how good you are"

Eclipse: "A lot. Bizz has played a lot."

me: (what I meant, maybe not exactly what I said) "noted, I'm not going to give someone a free pass on rookie mistakes just because of experience though--old people can be bad"

Your read of my interaction with Boron is completely off. Boron was like "Grass, you've done the semantics tunnel thing as town before. Is this really worth it/will it accomplish anything?" And I thought about that and decided "Boron, you're right. This is probably not the best use of my time or vote. (Unvote)" In other words, I was apologizing for a bad line of inquiry.

Semantics are fine, however none of Grassbridger's arguments indicated that he thought Viata scumslipped. His argument was more about complaining about how Viata wanted Manix to appear than anything else. This strikes me as pretty nitpicky, as Viata already prefaced his suspicions as a gutread, and nothing more.

Yes they did. That was where Bizz got that I was treating him like he'd never played before, since I was "accusing" him of declaring scum intent in the thread.

Elieson, Bizz said something like "I want this to be scummy but it's not" and then grass was like "AHA YOU SAID WANT THAT MEANS YOU ARE SCUM TRYING TO PUSH A MISLYNCH"

It's semantics, and it's really dumb semantics.

Paper, in the Kirby graveyard you literally told me to go read a forum post about how to identify scum from mindset and how that was reflected in their language

Grassbridger- Now, before I said his nitpicking was a null read, because I could see him being either scum or aggressive town. After that, he's mainly been tunneling onto Eclipse, which is bad because more reads are good, but I do agree with the majority of his reasoning, so he's still a null read.

Did you miss the part where I switched my vote to Paperblade?

First, let's look at what you said originally:

First paragraph: Doesn't tell me anything about myself.

Second paragraph: Your case is built on the fact that I'm interested in Bizz's response. Your basing this case off of what you think a townie should be doing (WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT TELLING ME WHAT TO DO?). Then, you say that a defense is "regrettable", because going after townies is wrong. This little tidbit is your explanation of how you think the game should run, and it is a fearful mindset. There's nothing "regrettable" about defense - it's another way to develop reads. By your logic, if you are town, you shouldn't be in a position to defend. This sounds like someone that's trying not to be lynched, by acting in such a way that you don't defend (and that's how I drew my conclusion). Next, here's a question for you: How does having to defend oneself benefit scum? Your tone/pattern argument is weak, as it doesn't say anything about logic.

Your case also revolves around what YOU think is correct, which is obviously not my style. I've rigged my own D1 lynch in the past, as town, because I knew it would benefit everyone else. My goal is to help the TOWN win, not to keep myself alive. If it means I die for the greater good, so be it. Next question: How is driving a lynch onto myself beneficial to my faction if I'm scum?

Ideally, scumhunting succeeds. Every time someone scumhunts and comes up with me, I defend myself, because they are wrong and they have a better (nonzero) chance of lynching scum if they stop targeting me, compared to if they lynch me (zero chance of scum). It doesn't have to do with wanting not to get lynched, it's because me getting lynched is, FMPOV, worse for town than {random other person who might be scum} getting lynched because you might lynch scum if you don't lynch me.

Defending yourself is good, having to defend yourself helps scum because it means that town scumhunters are focused on the wrong target.

Driving a lynch onto yourself is bad no matter your alignment (though I concede it's worse for scum), so purposely doing it earns you no points one way or the other.

>WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT TELLING ME WHAT TO DO?

I **** well hope this is a joke. If it's not, CHILL OUT. That's not what was happening.

If 1 is true, then 2 is automatically false. If 2 is true, then that is literally the worst possible role to give scum, short of an ITP running around. I want to see the case on me for 3, and why. I agree with 4, and can attest with my own role that massclaiming will probably not break the game (if anything, it'll confuse people).

Why are you following Bizz around like a lost puppy?

Uh, how the hell did you manage null reads after that slapfest? No, really; look at intent on both sides, and there should be something in there to push at least one of us (even if only slightly).

As I want Grassbridger to answer my post, my vote stays put.

Responding to bolded stuff, in order.

"If 1 is true..." This line assumes that people play optimally. Also, point 2 was an observation, so how can you say it's automatically false based on rolespec. I don't get the second part of that bolded statement either.

"Why are you following Bizz around like a lost puppy?" I think you could do with losing the insulting tone (TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO LOL), but I'd direct you to the top of this post--I had 2 posts that shortly followed Bizz's posts and expressed similar reasoning, and that was just a coincidence. You can choose to believe that or not.

---

Rest of game: Refa falls somewhere on the line from clueless to scummy and I'm not sure where; Elieson's tone seems different from how I remember him in past games, which is off-putting, but if he's going back to his phone then I'll wait to see if business as usual resumes; Weapons is deadweight; Lonely Wallcrab is posting really low-quality and weak arguments (FoS).

---

While I'd still support a Paperblade lynch due to generally weak scumhunting and what I view as a bizarre massclaim suggestion, I'm going to

##Unvote

##Vote: Lonely Wallcrab

I was at the point of voting Eclipse again here due to what I consider intentional antitown play (drawing her own lynch, being overly aggressive) but it felt OMGUSy even to myself.

Wallcrab voted me without any apparent attempt to understand the context of the conversation, so he's either inattentive or intentionally misrepping me. Skimming and graspy cases are both things that scum do, so, that paired with a general lack of reads, lead to my vote. (Also the bit where he said "it's lame but I'm sheeping Manix" and then later asked Elie "how was I sheeping much")

[Sunwoo]

While I'm waiting for Grassbridger's response, I went back and looked at some ISOs.

scorri's only scum read appears to be Refa, and the only other reads she gave were pretty much null. Says that Refa's vote on Weapons is an "easy vote" because "Weapons is real easy to vote in mafia". Now, she did actually discuss Refa's post(s), but as it did with Levity the fact that she calls Weapons an "easy vote" really rubs me the wrong way. Again, it feels rather dismissive to just sum it up as an "easy vote". Also, by similar logic I could argue that Refa is also an "easy vote" but that's just stupid. Even her most recent post only really discusses Refa, and it's striking me as scummy that she has no other definite reads on any other players.

Shinori needs to give more reads and opinions. I'll be waiting for him to reread and post opinions.

Refa's "no lynch" discussion thing doesn't ping me as scummy, because I can't see the scum intent in it. I disagree with it, but I don't feel it's scummy. My biggest problem with him is the big pile of null reads that he seems to have in one of his most recent posts. Your reads don't have to be absolute at this point. If you have any semblance of an opinion on any player, you should try to say whether you feel that person feels more townish or feels more scummy overall. Classifying most of the game as "null" over a few things you disagree or can see or can't understand feels noncommittal.

To be clear, I'm not scumreading him at the moment, but I wish he would be more confident on who he likes and who he doesn't.

Kay and Psych need to get back and start participating in the game.

Elieson, no not touching this one until later.

[eclipse]

but are you mad at me

answer that and then i can stop spamming and go to bed

Sorry, was out doing other stuff. Right now, no. I've got a lot of other things that I need to attend to.

Grassbridger, I see you and will get to that now.

[Sunwoo]

Hi people reading the thread whom I haven't seen play mafia here

Grassbridger's post? I'll try to get to that soon.

[eclipse]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43071&page=25#entry2638686

(no, I'm not quoting that, read it yourself)

Part 1: Guess who doesn't have a copy of your role PM? Most of the game. That is something that'll be said no matter what your alignment is (if you're town, then take it at face value, if you're scum, then it's in your best interest NOT to be lynched in the first place). Thus, your logic reads like a handwave, and I don't like it. Having to defend myself means that I can generate reads on the person who I'm talking to, and everyone else can draw reads off of me. Notice how many people had a not-null read on me? That's GOOD - even if I do end up lynched, there's a lot of associative reads that can be drawn, which benefits the town come D2. Driving a lynch to oneself is bad if you're incapable of seeing my role PM. From my point of view, I'm one of those roles that's a better lynch target than most of the game. It's also a selfish mindset, given my role.

I really don't like repeating myself, so if I say that I don't like it when someone does something, and someone ELSE does the exact same thing, I will snap, and I won't apologize for doing so.

Part 2: Uh. . .what? How did you draw those conclusions?

Part 3: Your vote was following hers. Since I have my vote on you, I WILL pay attention to such things.

Last part: Worried about an OMGUS? That's very self-conscious. . .like, scum self-conscious. Between your arguments against me (which doesn't take into account what I see), and that OMGUS bit, I am perfectly content to leave my vote where it is. Unless something extraordinary comes up, I think you're scummy enough to be today's lynch. I also think that your logic for voting Wallcrab could be applied to yourself, especially at the beginning of the game.

[Grassbridger]

Maybe I'm using "OMGUS" wrong... what I meant was that the vote felt too tied up in emotion rather than actual logic, predicated on your vote on me but also our interaction that I felt was blinding me.

I disagree with your logic about ways to generate reads, but fine, that's covered ground at this point. I have a different perspective than you do. If your role is good for getting lynched, I guess that's different.

Not sure what your "part 2" and "part 3" are referring to, so if you could point out where they start, I'll respond in about 10 hours when I'm awake again.

[Paperblade]

Grass, people don't go "Man I want this to be scummy so that I can push a townie lynch," you look for little slip ups

[euklyd]

Okay I just finished ISOing everyone (again), and am now flooded with thoughts.

I'll try to cut them down a lot, but that might take some time.

Grass, people don't go "Man I want this to be scummy so that I can push a townie lynch," you look for little slip ups

Not really sure what part of Grassbridger's post this is referring to.

brb trimming thoughts, I'll try to have them w/in the hour.

[euklyd]

Also I'm getting way more scumreads/vibes than I feel like I should, even if most of them are extremely slight; not sure what to do about that ATM.

[eclipse]

Maybe I'm using "OMGUS" wrong... what I meant was that the vote felt too tied up in emotion rather than actual logic, predicated on your vote on me but also our interaction that I felt was blinding me.

I disagree with your logic about ways to generate reads, but fine, that's covered ground at this point. I have a different perspective than you do. If your role is good for getting lynched, I guess that's different.

Not sure what your "part 2" and "part 3" are referring to, so if you could point out where they start, I'll respond in about 10 hours when I'm awake again.

I'm gonna grab that out of your previous wall (thus, generic quote tags).

Part 1:

Ideally, scumhunting succeeds. Every time someone scumhunts and comes up with me, I defend myself, because they are wrong and they have a better (nonzero) chance of lynching scum if they stop targeting me, compared to if they lynch me (zero chance of scum). It doesn't have to do with wanting not to get lynched, it's because me getting lynched is, FMPOV, worse for town than {random other person who might be scum} getting lynched because you might lynch scum if you don't lynch me.

Defending yourself is good, having to defend yourself helps scum because it means that town scumhunters are focused on the wrong target.

Driving a lynch onto yourself is bad no matter your alignment (though I concede it's worse for scum), so purposely doing it earns you no points one way or the other.

>WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT TELLING ME WHAT TO DO?

I **** well hope this is a joke. If it's not, CHILL OUT. That's not what was happening.

(read backwards; I've made it abundantly clear that I'm willing to be lynched because of my role)

Part 2:

"If 1 is true..." This line assumes that people play optimally. Also, point 2 was an observation, so how can you say it's automatically false based on rolespec. I don't get the second part of that bolded statement either.

(seriously, you need to explain this, because I can't figure out how it relates to the previous quote)

Part 3:

"Why are you following Bizz around like a lost puppy?" I think you could do with losing the insulting tone (TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO LOL), but I'd direct you to the top of this post--I had 2 posts that shortly followed Bizz's posts and expressed similar reasoning, and that was just a coincidence. You can choose to believe that or not.

(when I saw those posts, "lost puppy" was what came to mind; from my perspective, it STILL seems weird)

Last part should be pretty obvious.

I don't like how self-conscious your arguments have come across, which is why my vote hasn't moved. Since I'm town, I know that my reads may be off/other people might interpret my actions as scummy/etc. I'm positive the town has a few mislynches, so if I go down, it's not the end of the world for the town - if anything, it'll probably be a net gain. Scum, on the other hand, needs to concentrate on surviving, so doing things like not sticking out and appeasing the masses is what pings me hard. . .and that's how I read your arguments.