Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Sunwoo]

I think you're quite literally the only person who's never realized that scum know who each other are, though >_>

And Refa, there are actually benefits to new players acting ignorant about SF mafia and mafia in general. That's how I got Shin to win his first scum game.

[Refa]

So do you find him scummy based on that?

[scorri]

I think he's getting confused between single mafia and multiball mafia. If there are multiple scum teams they don't have communication in between teams usually, but until there's evidence of it being multiball, it's safer to assume single mafia who would all have communication with each other.

[MRDRHAWK]

I can clear any potential scumreads on me up based on that then; I have no idea who any of the scum in this game are aside from the two who were killed N1.

[BBM]

1) Don't edit your posts.

2) I can confirm that the mafia know each other's identities and can communicate with each other outside of the thread- this is standard for mafia on SF.

[scorri]

Poly: Yeah, and I'm sure if you were scum you would totally not lie about that. Not very helpful to just say that.

[Sunwoo]

So do you find him scummy based on that?

I'm reluctant to write him off as town over it. I find him scummy because he doesn't seem to care about scum hunting, has to be prodded to elaborate on anything, and keeps on talking about independents. If there's an independent, that's something we'll worry about it when we're sure that one exists, otherwise it sounds like distracting from scum hunting.

[Grassbridger]

Votals

Paperblade (3): Scorri, Elieson, Polydeuces

Polydeuces (2): Paperblade, Refa

Refa (4): Eclipse, Bizz, Psych, Weapons

Not Voting (4): Kay, Euklyd, Boron, Grassbridger

With 13 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch at deadline and 7 votes to hammer. Phase ends on September 29th at 9PM EDT (September 30th at 1AM GMT). You have slightly over 24 hours remaining.

BBM I'm pretty sure you listed Weapons as voting for Refa instead of me.

The only reason I can see is that they had a disagreement about things/lack of communication.

This is entirely plausible.

Why is it unlikely?

Because she was a sudden counterwagon to someone who flipped scum.

Secondly, my point has nothing to do with the fact that Shinori was killed. Why are you misrepping my argument? My point is scumtelling based on voting for scorri alone is inherently flawed, as a townie as been shown to execute the same behavior. I am not arguing that there were no scums on her wagon (statistically speaking, there's a fairly good chance that there is), but that reasoning strikes me as really bad.

I'm not misrepping your argument, I'm countering your argument. Scum killed Shinori unless Psych is also scum, but the fact that a very protown, claimed role died AND two players (myself and Boron) were redirected away from him suggests more than one person acting in concert, so yeah scum killed Shinori. Therefore, all we learn from Shinori's flip is that there was at least one town on the Scorri wagon. My point is that we already knew that unless you thought everyone on the wagon was scum. So you pointing out that Shinori was on the wagon as town doesn't actually change the likelihood of someone on the wagon being scum.

This reasoning is bad, scum has every reason to bus their teammates who are likely to get lynched anyways for some easy town cred.

Eh, sure, fine. But it's still true that wagons on scum are inherently less scummy than wagons on town, period. This applies to powerwagons too.

You could argue the same for SB's case. The only difference was that SB flipped scum, but I don't like your argument that powerwagons aren't scummy only because the person flipped scum instead of town. Look at this logically. Scum are the only ones who know who is or is not scum. Therefore, they'd be the only ones who knew for certain the alignment of the person they were voting for, disregarding 3rd parties. And I believe I've stated above the benefits of voting for fellow scum buddies when they're liable to get lynched anyways. On the other hand, townies would have no idea of the alignment who they are voting for, therefore there is a very real possibility that they'd have voted for someone who didn't flip scum. How can you consider that sort of behavior scummy?

Scum might vote their own buddies, but only if it becomes obvious that that person is getting lynched OR if it's early in the phase and that person seems unlikely to get lynched. I think it's rare for scum to actively push their buddy's lynch unless they themselves are more likely to be lynched. Basically, none of those 3 scenarios apply to a powerwagon, because it happens so quickly it's not obvious they'll get lynched, and people aren't jumping on the wagon thinking people are unlikely to get lynched. So, I don't think scum bussing scum on powerwagons is very common.

##Unvote because Refa's arguments seem to come from a townie heart

##Vote: Polydeuces who is really annoying me right now and acting very antitown. Noobscum who have lost 2 experienced buddies are exactly the type who might give up.

[BBM]

Pretty sure Weapons is voting Refa.

[Grassbridger]

Oh yep, you're right, I seem to have corrected your votals by unvoting

[Percivalé]

I'm sorry it just made me really really paranoid and I don't like it when scum gets away with that kind of thing. Anyway don't worry I have some stuff noted down but I'll have to finish it and post it tomorrow.

Really don't like Poly's attitude, if he's not lynched today I'd really like to see him or Kay vigged/nightkilled but ultimately it is up to the hypothetical vig(s)/sk

[eclipse]

1. I just got home.

2. I am dead tired.

Coherence tomorrow. Right now, I nurse a headache.

[Elieson]

1. I just got home.

2. I am dead tired.

Coherence tomorrow. Right now, I nurse a headache.

does it involve getting home after waiting for 4 hours to go through the process of bailing out your ex from county prison, having a dead car battery at the release of said ex, calling a tow driver and getting your car battery jumped another hour later on, all while after a grueling 6 hour work-Fest, while on approximately 2 hours of sleep?

Just got home myself. Actual reading comes tomorrow, during my double shift, when I'll probably hve more time to focus than I would while at home.

[eclipse]

does it involve getting home after waiting for 4 hours to go through the process of bailing out your ex from county prison, having a dead car battery at the release of said ex, calling a tow driver and getting your car battery jumped another hour later on, all while after a grueling 6 hour work-Fest, while on approximately 2 hours of sleep?

Just got home myself. Actual reading comes tomorrow, during my double shift, when I'll probably hve more time to focus than I would while at home.

It involved a church. Shall I start preaching?

[euklyd]

Ugh, between homework and some other stuff (including forgetting a bit) I've not really had much time to actually focus on anything here today.

Not a huge fan of Refa (or Polydeuces) ATM, but not really interested in typing out a lot stuff out before getting to bed.

Mostly just not liking the turbolynching logic, although there are a few other things, but I really feel like I should re-read this in the morning when I've actually had some sleep.

[BBM]

Votals

Paperblade (3): Scorri, Elieson, Polydeuces

Polydeuces (3): Paperblade, Refa, Grassbridger

Refa (4): Eclipse, Bizz, Psych, Weapons

Not Voting (3): Kay, Euklyd, Boron

With 13 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch at deadline and 7 votes to hammer. Phase ends on September 29th at 9PM EDT (September 30th at 2AM GMT). You have slightly under 9.5 hours remaining.

Edited September 29, 2013 by BigBadMarshmallow

[Refa]

@Polydeuces (whenever you get on)

Concerning your reads, earlier you voted Paperblade because he seemed the sketchiest to you (assuming your reasoning hasn't changed, because of his reaction). Why do you find his reaction suspicious? And what are you referring to when you say Weapons has been suspicious all game?

[eclipse]

On reread. . .

- Still don't mind a Refa lynch.

- Polydeuces' most recent activity. . .doesn't push a case.

Don't care which of these two is lynched today, as long as one of them is. As I should be around for phase end, I can move my vote where needed.

[Percivalé]

Hi

I think besides the couple of things about Eclipse I want to point out, there's not much else I have to say today. Already said I don't like Poly's attitude, I'm going by PoE today because I suck, Poly and/or Kay need(s) to be vigged, I feel slightly funny about Paperblade because he keeps agreeing with people a lot.

I think my biggest townread, based more on action than gut, is Psych.

In response to what Eclipse said: I guess I don't really remember it being like that but I could check. I haven't been the target of that in a long while I guess so it was surprising to me and just made me EXTREMELY paranoid but I'm not going to bring it up anymore. (In accordance with my playstyle though it's just more effective to be direct with me so I can focus more on logic.)

Anyway, a couple of things you said seem scummy to me--

Not shooting scorri because you're afraid of looking bad is. . .uh, bad.

Why is this, though? I don't know if I just don't understand this but I mean in the context of Psych's claim it doesn't seem that bad to me.

(although, @Psych, I'm kind of curious why you were afraid of Scorri flipping town when Kevin flipped town and you claimed anyway? You didn't seem to be THAT afraid of looking bad.)

In your #1034:

Also, why is everyone following me? ;/

This actually bothered me a lot because if you're voting Refa I assume you want Refa lynched, right? I think at the time you posted that only two people followed the Refa vote (including me, but I wouldn't consider my vote 'following' you but that's just in my own head). If you want Refa lynched, why is it bad if other people are convinced by your case? (I know that I pointed out Grass following me a couple of times and also Paper but that's because they followed me/agreed with me multiple times and it seemed odd.) This kind of thing reads as paranoid to me, coupled with what you did earlier in the game that I felt read as paranoid to me too.

Another thing is the SK spec. Yes I know I always preach "SK spec/SK hunting is scummy when there are still mafia to find" but I firmly believe third hunting is scummy because it looks like scumhunting when it isn't. You've expressed concerns about a possible SK multiple times and I think it'd be scum's priority to remind everyone about that kind of thing, especially since an unclaimed kill took out a mafia already.

These things coupled with this vibe that I haven't been able to shake off make you a scumread for me (there's something I forgot I think but oh well). I don't really know what to do about it, though, because you've also done some things that read to me as town and it's confusing.

(I keep thinking that Paperblade 'accidentally' voting Weapons after already expressing he was possibly not mafia and going out of his way to explain that 'not mafia' in his words included town and thirds reads to me as a possible slip, but it's a very small thing and I dunno. Someone else pointed this out already too but I don't remember who.)

[eclipse]

Hi

I think besides the couple of things about Eclipse I want to point out, there's not much else I have to say today. Already said I don't like Poly's attitude, I'm going by PoE today because I suck, Poly and/or Kay need(s) to be vigged, I feel slightly funny about Paperblade because he keeps agreeing with people a lot.

I think my biggest townread, based more on action than gut, is Psych.

In response to what Eclipse said: I guess I don't really remember it being like that but I could check. I haven't been the target of that in a long while I guess so it was surprising to me and just made me EXTREMELY paranoid but I'm not going to bring it up anymore. (In accordance with my playstyle though it's just more effective to be direct with me so I can focus more on logic.)

Anyway, a couple of things you said seem scummy to me--

Why is this, though? I don't know if I just don't understand this but I mean in the context of Psych's claim it doesn't seem that bad to me.

(although, @Psych, I'm kind of curious why you were afraid of Scorri flipping town when Kevin flipped town and you claimed anyway? You didn't seem to be THAT afraid of looking bad.)

In your #1034:

This actually bothered me a lot because if you're voting Refa I assume you want Refa lynched, right? I think at the time you posted that only two people followed the Refa vote (including me, but I wouldn't consider my vote 'following' you but that's just in my own head). If you want Refa lynched, why is it bad if other people are convinced by your case? (I know that I pointed out Grass following me a couple of times and also Paper but that's because they followed me/agreed with me multiple times and it seemed odd.) This kind of thing reads as paranoid to me, coupled with what you did earlier in the game that I felt read as paranoid to me too.

Another thing is the SK spec. Yes I know I always preach "SK spec/SK hunting is scummy when there are still mafia to find" but I firmly believe third hunting is scummy because it looks like scumhunting when it isn't. You've expressed concerns about a possible SK multiple times and I think it'd be scum's priority to remind everyone about that kind of thing, especially since an unclaimed kill took out a mafia already.

These things coupled with this vibe that I haven't been able to shake off make you a scumread for me (there's something I forgot I think but oh well). I don't really know what to do about it, though, because you've also done some things that read to me as town and it's confusing.

(I keep thinking that Paperblade 'accidentally' voting Weapons after already expressing he was possibly not mafia and going out of his way to explain that 'not mafia' in his words included town and thirds reads to me as a possible slip, but it's a very small thing and I dunno. Someone else pointed this out already too but I don't remember who.)

(I'm gonna need to do some linking here, 'cause it doesn't work with just quoting)

I see "I'm afraid of doing something because it looks bad" as being self-conscious, and thus, a scumtell. However, this is Psych, and he does this as town, too (SFMM3, a.k.a. "eclipse hard-defends Psych for most of his existence"), which is part of the reason why I'm not voting him over it.

My vote on Polydeuces. The next vote on Polydeuces is here, followed by here. I didn't think too much of it because Polydeuces' actions weren't clearing him. Next, my vote of Refa is here. Here's the next vote. Then, scroll down to the next two posts. What I see is me making a case, and then votes following me afterwards. The one repeat offender is you, Bizz, which is why I think your scumread on me is weird. If I'm scummy, then why do your votes follow mine?

As for the SK, that's because it's one of the few roles that I can think of that is a killing fake. That's MY game, and the rider attached to the SK role was why Haze won. That third death is still unaccounted for, which tells me that we either have a vig that's not a scumread (which is why he/she is keeping quiet), or we have a SK. Now, if it's the latter, and the role I'm thinking of, relying on the night phase is risky - roles that target it fail half the time. I designed it so that it would require talking about it during the day to find him/her. If it's not the role I'm thinking of, then I'm doing this for nothing.

[Percivalé]

The one repeat offender is you, Bizz, which is why I think your scumread on me is weird. If I'm scummy, then why do your votes follow mine?

I guess I haven't really noticed. I'm not paying as much attention in this game atm like I should be (and want a Refa/Poly lynch today anyway).

[Paperblade]

I think I prefer a Refa lynch based on today's actions, but I'd like a claim from him

##Unvote, ##Vote: Refa

[Sunwoo]

I'd rather lynch Polydeuces over Refa on the grounds that I don't think scum would blindly redirect things toward their scum buddy.

##Vote: Polydeuces

[Sunwoo]

Also, quick analysis of the "fast building" Refa wagon I said I'd look at yesterday. I still don't like how fast it built up, where it was a bunch of consecutive votes on him following eclipse's. However, I'm not scum reading eclipse and I don't think Levity, Grass, and Psych are scum at this moment ;/ I do wish Levity had summarized her post if she had lost it and I can't say I agree completely with Grass' seven points on Refa.

[Refa]

I guess I haven't really noticed. I'm not paying as much attention in this game atm like I should be (and want a Refa/Poly lynch today anyway).

AFAIK, you still haven't provided a reason for voting me. Before you say I really haven't done anything to convince you that I'm town, which doesn't really tell me anything, and then you mentioned that you'd look into it more the same day...and you never followed up on it. Why are you spending more time arguing with Eclipse rather than building a case on the person you most think is scum (e.g. the person you are voting on)?

I think I prefer a Refa lynch based on today's actions,

please elaborate