Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

Nothing wrong with using Semantics to find scum. Otherwise, you're giving a free pass to everyone to correct their statements if they made a potential scumslip.

Semantics are fine, however none of Grassbridger's arguments indicated that he thought Viata scumslipped. His argument was more about complaining about how Viata wanted Manix to appear than anything else. This strikes me as pretty nitpicky, as Viata already prefaced his suspicions as a gutread, and nothing more.

FALSE. Lynching a confirmed (or at least, relatively confirmed) townie is worse than a no lynch. Any other lynch is potentially hitting scum, which is town's only weapon against scum (unless town killing roles exist) Voting helps identify who believes who is scum, and in general, players aren't going to end phase with votes on town reads, or even null reads (except for the extreme situations of desperate consolidation, in which, lesser scumreads/null reads are being voted). This is a huge reason why I don't like you in this game.

"A common misconception in a majority lynch system is that no-lynch is bad due to the notion that flips are the only source of information. While flips are useful in confirming information, there are many cases where it is clear that town is bandwagoning a player and will lead to a mislynch."

This is how I view things. To clarify, here are my statements regarding no lynching. I'm honestly not sure what your problem is when we seem to have a similar view.

Lynching a townie is worse than a no lynch. I agree with you that we should go for a lynch (like you said, reads can be drawn), but if there remains reasonable doubt whether someone is or is not mafia, we should at least hold off on the lynch until that doubt is cleared.

Yes, we should lynch before Day Phase is over. What I'm saying is we should hold off on turbolynches before that while there remains reasonable doubt that the person is a townie. If you're thinking, "Well duh", I've only mentioned it because eclipse seemed rather laissez faire about who got lynched, as long as someone ended up getting lynched.

While I think a Day 1 mislynch is the most likely to flip town, it's also incredibly beneficial if a mafia member is chosen. Again, it's that your post seemed more like "HEY LETS LYNCH SOMEONE" and less like "HEY LETS LYNCH THE SCUMMIEST PERSON".

I think if the reasoning for lynching is shaky enough and there's no chance to lynch anyone else, a D1 Lynch is more risky than it's worth. I'm not saying we need a guarantee, which would be nigh-impossible at this stage, just that we do indeed gun for the scummiest person(persons if multiple wagons) instead of lynching Polydeuces at the end of the days because his name looks funny and hey A LYNCH IS BETTER THAN A NO LYNCH.

[Da Bear]

uhh

hey Wallcrab idk if you explained and I didn't see it but did you ever explain your town read on me?

...I find the tone of your posts to town based. There are various reasons throughout the thread a big one is how your play seems incredibly different than in SFMM3.

You're a lot less nervous this game.

[Elieson]

Semantics are fine, however none of Grassbridger's arguments indicated that he thought Viata scumslipped. His argument was more about complaining about how Viata wanted Manix to appear than anything else. This strikes me as pretty nitpicky, as Viata already prefaced his suspicions as a gutread, and nothing more.

To-may-to, To-mah-to. If semantics are being brought up in regards to a scumread, then it's part of someone's scumread on another player one way or another. Pointing out a potential scumslip due to the choice of vocabulary, or view of someone's self-presence, among (i guess) other reasons, can all be used to develop a scumread

"A common misconception in a majority lynch system is that no-lynch is bad due to the notion that flips are the only source of information. While flips are useful in confirming information, there are many cases where it is clear that town is bandwagoning a player and will lead to a mislynch."

This is how I view things. To clarify, here are my statements regarding no lynching. I'm honestly not sure what your problem is when we seem to have a similar view.

Then that's an obvious view that shouldn't need stating. Why are you taking the time and making effort to talk about such a mechanic when you are already aware of how the lynch process works? You explicitly stated that lynching town is bad, but at this point, there's no confirmed townies (and only a couple of ways in which a player could even be a confirmed townie during Day 1, none of which have happened), so the argument of bringing up a "hey let's not try to lynch a town player" is a given fact when you look at the vote count because players who appear town aren't being voted.

Like I said above, it's unnecessary discussion fodder, and isn't really building up to a case to find scum with.

[Paperblade]

Elieson, Bizz said something like "I want this to be scummy but it's not" and then grass was like "AHA YOU SAID WANT THAT MEANS YOU ARE SCUM TRYING TO PUSH A MISLYNCH"

It's semantics, and it's really dumb semantics.

[Zkirsche]

careful, you might turn him into a door

Oh my god I remember this from somewhere recently but I can't remember where and it's bugging me ughhhhhh.

Going back to Elie's wall:

And this is why.

PB addressed this. He was sensor in Mitnala and chose 5 scum and 1 villager as the results and was found out D2. Sure, some of that was dumb luck but this role is most certanly not easy to fake.

Also please please respond to our defence of Refa's suggestion, he's done this before.

[Elieson]

Elieson, Bizz said something like "I want this to be scummy but it's not" and then grass was like "AHA YOU SAID WANT THAT MEANS YOU ARE SCUM TRYING TO PUSH A MISLYNCH"

It's semantics, and it's really dumb semantics.

It may be dumb semantics, but it's still a valid point to bring up if it affect's a player's read, because it can't be confronted via discussion if it isn't mentioned to begin with. Even if it's a lame reason, it can be refuted by the player who made the statement in the first place.

Oh my god I remember this from somewhere recently but I can't remember where and it's bugging me ughhhhhh.

It's in BBM's signature!

Going back to Elie's wall:

PB addressed this. He was sensor in Mitnala and chose 5 scum and 1 villager as the results and was found out D2. Sure, some of that was dumb luck but this role is most certanly not easy to fake.

Also please please respond to our defence of Refa's suggestion, he's done this before.

My response is that he has done this before, and should be aware of the reprecussions of making such statements (as I am, for doing intentionally scummy things to end EarlyRVS)

[Zkirsche]

The lesson he has learnt from this is to never make suggestions. Good lesson.

Not to mention I have said more. It's clearly a newbie player move and you're just stubbornly refusing that at that point.

[Paperblade]

Seriously, it's pretty common for new players to overvalue the life of a random townie in NOC vs. getting associative reads and the potential to lynch scum. Why do you keep pushing this?

[Percivalé]

I am playing DDR and then I will be back for an actual thorough read but Elie still feels tryhard to me fwiw

[Zkirsche]

How is trying hard good or bad?

[Percivalé]

like in a bad way

[Elieson]

because it's D1 and it's a stupid pride thing but I really want to catch scum in the act At this point I'm not even pushing it, I'm responding to you guys who are questioning me for my thoughts.

I've already declared my other scumreads, such as Weapons (for a beautiful lack of contribution), Manix (for being overall unmemorable and weird behavior with Bizz) and Bizz (for her weird defense with Weapons near the beginning, which i can't shake), as well as Refa. Shinori and eclipse are much lesser scumreads, if only for one thing they said here or there that I take as scummy -to an extent-. if the only read you have concern with is my Refa read, ok I get it, but I don't think it's fair that we give a fresh pass to someone for doing something like suggesting a no lynch in the way that he did. You can do things like suggest a no lynch, but if it's presented in a way in which I find scummy, I'm gonna say "hey I find that scummy".

[Sunwoo]

Maybe he's SCUM pushing for a mislynch

In all seriousness, Elieson, I can understand why you'd find Refa scummy, but is it the scummiest thing out of everything that has happened? Do you honestly feel that it has absolute scum intent and that he's scum making these suggestions and just not "new player tries to offer different suggestions and is shot down harshly"?

I know that Refa's played in a few games so he's not "that" new, but he's still relatively inexperienced. As much as this may sound like giving a new player the "newbie" pass, you cannot judge newer and inexperienced players with the exact same standards as veteran players who know better about what they are doing. You can't expect players who've only played in a few games to immediately "pick up" on what experienced SF mafia payers do. This kind of attitude has made at least one person on this site quit mafia forever after one game.

[Zkirsche]

How did he present it in a bad way? He simply stated an opinion and was wrong. Why is that scummy?

[Elieson]

because if you're not doing it my way you're doing it the scum way

Well, I guess it's not really wrong per se, but when we're supposed to be looking for scum by trying to identify scummy actions or saying scummy things, even if they're mildly scummy, they're still scummy.

TBH the only person who's done anything with any form of scum intent is Paper with his D1 massclaim, and that's assuming that if it was declared with scum intent, that Paper or Paper+Shinori are scum, and I'm not looking to line up lynches based on something that when we can easily take a day to try to prove Shinori's sensor claim and town motivation behind outing it so early.

ok ok maybe I'm just looking at Refa with the intent to find something to the point where I'm making something little worth more to me than I should, but I spent an entire day gone and TBH when I did a 12 page read of the thread, the things that stuck out to me most were Refa's No Lynch suggestion, Weapons' utter lack of anything amidst his multiple posts, Bizz's defense of said Weapons, and Manix's interactions with Bizz (and eclipse, but I don't necessarily find her play scummy, I just disagree with her approach to things).

[Elieson]

##Unvote

##Vote WeaponsofMassConstruction

ok the contribution issue is too huge to ignore, and I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill. I should sleep on it and reread Refa in the AM when I'm not too bothered bythat No Lynch proposal.

[Percivalé]

You thinking I'm scummy for my defense of Weapons reads to me like you're trying to get somewhere without associative reads and it's rubbing me the wrong way. The issue is, Weapons probably isn't going to contribute anything atm because it's just his playstyle and I don't think aside from being mostly useless that he's done anything inherently scummy and there's scummier things to focus on. You don't like him, vigshoot him then, but I just didn't think he was very important

[Elieson]

re: scum intent and Paper.

I can see both town intent and scum intent behind his massclaim idea, so like, I dunno how to take it exactly.

[Paperblade]

Elieson how can you say I'm the only one that's done something with scum intent when you have scumreads on other players

[Elieson]

You thinking I'm scummy for my defense of Weapons reads to me like you're trying to get somewhere without associative reads and it's rubbing me the wrong way. The issue is, Weapons probably isn't going to contribute anything atm because it's just his playstyle and I don't think aside from being mostly useless that he's done anything inherently scummy and there's scummier things to focus on.

Weapons is an easy target to push because of his generally lax and 95% unserious playstyle.

I dunno, I just don't think that saying "oh he's like that so it's ok" is fine, because I've read games where weapons tries to contribute early on, and I've read games where weapons doesn't do fuckall. You saying that he is generally lax encourages people to not look too closely at him, and that rubs me the wrong way just as much as I apparently rub you the wrong way <insert sexual innuendo here>. I don't think it's fair that you bring that up because where you believe he is generally lax overall, I feel differently regarding him. I don't think it's fair that you make him look better or worse because of [meta]. The fact is, in this game, he's contributing minimally to the game, yet posting more often than say, Kay. I'm reading his posts as best as i can.

[Elieson]

Elieson how can you say I'm the only one that's done something with scum intent when you have scumreads on other players

because you suggested us doing somethign that affects the game right now, as opposed to by day's end. It's different

[eclipse]

So this thread blew up while I was at work. Gimme a chance to read it all, and do a bit of other stuff. I should be done in the next hour and a half, at most.

[Percivalé]

Well Elie you do what you do, I personally feel like a Weapons lynch would be a waste of time but you do what you do

[Refa]

Refa WoMC's Boron vote was a reaction test and he has since admitted that she is probably town as noone sheeped him (dunno if I like that logic but w/e). Do you have other opinions now?

Yeah, after reading some ISOs (I wish I knew about this earlier!)...

Leaning Town

Elieson- I don't like that he barely posted anything early on (apparently due to being on a phone?), but he's kept his stance on a lot of things, which strikes me as more town than scum. While I don't agree with his case on me (yes I get this is obvious, who agrees with a case on them), I feel like he's legimately trying to hunt scum and I can agree with his reasoning for some of the other people he's suspicious of (Eclipse, Weapons).

Viata- I think Viata's put a lot more effort into scumhunting than people have been giving him credit for. He's claimed suspicions on at least 3 people, 2 of which (Manix, Eclipse) he's written about on length. I feel like people are getting too hung up on the fact that he's emotional (or rather, appears to be) and less about the actual logic of his posts.

Shinori- I don't think claming such a role is something the scum team would ever do, considering how many issues there'd be with him lying about his claims if he were in fact scum.

Null Read

Kirsche- Hasn't really posted all that much, but he did make a rather convincing case on Manix and none of his other arguments are giving me scum vibes. My only problem is that he doesn't really have a case for anyone besides Manix, which is why he's a null read instead of leaning town.

Grassbridger- Now, before I said his nitpicking was a null read, because I could see him being either scum or aggressive town. After that, he's mainly been tunneling onto Eclipse, which is bad because more reads are good, but I do agree with the majority of his reasoning, so he's still a null read.

Weapons- I still find his lack of scum reading to be suspicious, but considering he's stated his previous posts were a reaction test (and he hasn't given reason for me to believe otherwise), dropping him to null reads.

Bearclaw- Looking back at his arguments, I was really overexaggerating the sheeping thing. I think I was less bothered by who he was voting for or why he voted for them, and more because he didn't explain himself enough. Regardless, with his votes on me and bearclaw, it seems that he's putting more effort into scumhunting. Not quite sure if he's town, but at the very least a null read.

Euklyd- Not really sure what to think of his posts at the moment. He's appears to be scumhunting, but he hasn't really posted a case on anyone besides Paperblade. Not sure if he's just worried that he'll misvote, or what, so null read.

Psych- We're tragically low on Psych material, not sure what I think of it.

Scorri- Something about her reads seems a little...disassociative. Like all of her other reads except on me were "This person could go one way or the other" and her read on me seems mostly based on things that Manix has already argued previously and didn't really add much to strengthen the case. Not sure what to make of this, so null read for now.

Kay- I know Kay's not the most active of mafia players (which is fine), but she's literally posted like 3 sentences and hasn't even made an RVS vote, which is just grrrrrrr.

Leaning Scum

Manix- I don't like his stance on Grassbridger, since his logic is just as faulty as Grassbridger's was ("I'm voting for you because you didn't clarify your last vote"). I also honestly feel that he's intentionally misrepresenting some of my arguments to push a lynch on me. In addition, his thoughts on Shinori seems ill founded at best considering that even if Shinori was scum, it would be extremely easy to determine that within like, two days. Later he says that he viewed Shinori as leaning town, which kind of puts all of the suspicion he cast on Shinori earlier in a bad light.

Polydeuces- He spends all day doing nothing, and then he sheeps me at the end while offering no reasoning or opinion of his own. Definetely rubs me in the wrong way, he's basically gunning for a lynch without making any effort to make any reads. I know he's new, but this behavior doesn't even read noob town to me, but rather lazy scum.

##Unvote
##Vote: Polydeuces

Please give some legitimate reads rather than jumping on the leading bandwagon without putting any effort in whatsoever.

I know I didn't list out any information regarding Paperblade, Boron, or eclipse due to lack of time, just know that my reads on them are leaning town, leaning town, and null respectively.

[Refa]

Bearclaw- Looking back at his arguments, I was really overexaggerating the sheeping thing. I think I was less bothered by who he was voting for or why he voted for them, and more because he didn't explain himself enough. Regardless, with his votes on me and Manix, it seems that he's putting more effort into scumhunting. Not quite sure if he's town, but at the very least a null read.

Sorry, typo.