Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Bluedoom]

Meh this setup is lol. ROFLing right now cuz we have dupes here.

2 vanillas

2 hookers

2 watchers????

2 redirectors apparently?

Then we have some claim where that fakeclaim wasn't claimed in-game, a commuter which wasn't really claimed by Kay in-game as a fake. Wat.

[BBM]

Votals

Paperblade (3): Elieson, Eclipse, Scorri

Refa (3): Weapons, Paperblade, Marth

Not Voting (4): Euklyd, Refa, Boron, Psych

With 10 players alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch at deadline and 7 to hammer. Phase ends on October 3rd at 9PM EDT (October 4th at 1AM GMT). You have slightly over 35.5 hours left in the phase.

[Elieson]

Refa not throwing down a vote is pretty shady, especially if he's just trying to avoid buddying up to join the primary wagon (other than his own obviously). Marth, I don't think that you voting him just to get associative reads is cool, and since you said that first, it seems like the main point behind your vote.

Euk, my role works in a way that I have one "chance" to watch scum (well nontown). A second successful watch on nontown ends up being a suicide.

[Elieson]

Euk also claimed scumreads on both of the wagons, and I think he should vote, if to simply make it apparent as to who he finds scummier, and why X is scummier than Y.

Boron, thoughts on Refa?

[Refa]

I think discussing about Elieson and lynching him is a waste of time because he's third and not town so lynching him is fine.

I don't believe you've ever explained your logic behind this one.

You're more likely to get reads by doing it yourself. Mafia benefits from people who don't vote, not town.

Considering Day 3 isn't even close to over yet, I'm not sure how my not voting yet due to indecisiveness is inherently scummy (and if it was, then you'd be suspecting almost half of the game of being scum). Surely if I was mafia I could just put down a vote and change my opinion later?

[Elieson]

Refa surely you understand that voting demonstrates a commitment to your statements. Not to mention that votes apply pressure to those you find scummy in order to brig information out into the open. Just saying "I find X scummy for Z reason and Y scummy for G reason" doesn't make much effort to help town find scum. And therein lies the problem; you're performing in a not pro-town manner. Therefore in comparison, you look worse than other players who not only give a hoot, but are trying to get rid of scum all the time, instead of at phase end 200 hours and over 1000 posts into the game.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Marth looks better, so maybe scorri/Refa?

If Elieson isn't SK, actually is there any possibility of just a second scum team?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

At least town reads are shaping up.

[euklyd]

Euk, my role works in a way that I have one "chance" to watch scum (well nontown). A second successful watch on nontown ends up being a suicide.

Damn.

So you can't just say "I successfully watched [Player X] and am still alive, so therefore [Player X] must be innocent".

This kinda sucks, now that it's claimed.

Euk also claimed scumreads on both of the wagons, and I think he should vote, if to simply make it apparent as to who he finds scummier, and why X is scummier than Y.

Not really sure.

Paperblade seems a bit scummier mostly because I'm really not liking his interactions with Elieson, and I'm not sure what the point of his arguing with eclipse was. Still not sure about the whole massclaim thing.

Refa I just am suspicious of mostly because of the turbolynch suggestion and general playing-it-safeness. I am also curious as to what his role is, but I'm not really sure in general about what to do about possibly forcing power roles to claim when it could be avoided (I have been arguing with myself about this for a while now, and it's really pissing me off).

ATM it's probably Paperblade, but I'm not really getting a strong read on either of them. For now, I'll ##vote: Paperblade

Also still not sure about scorri, but I'd rather address that tomorrow.

[Paperblade]

Multiple scumteams would require something like 10/3/3/1 which means we basically just lose since it'd be 5/3/1/1 today. Unless it's something weird like 11/3/2/1. But 6/1/2/1 is still pretty close

@Boron: In previous games eclipse has questioned backup claims because she was vanilla and backing up a vanilla is pointless, but in this game where the existence of vanillas is confirmed in the OP she's not said anything about scorri's claim. I'm not really satisfied with her explanation.

[Sunwoo]

Boron, thoughts on Refa?

I don't even know anymore, I thought he was town simply on the grounds of being redirected to him and now I don't know what to think. I also know I don't have a vote down and I'll see if I can get one down when I can actually read.

[Refa]

Refa surely you understand that voting demonstrates a commitment to your statements.

Yes. Also considering how many other no votes there are, it's rather bizzare that you choose only to focus on me.

Therefore in comparison, you look worse than other players who not only give a hoot, but are trying to get rid of scum all the time, instead of at phase end 200 hours and over 1000 posts into the game.

I am in the process of ISOing (scorri, Euklyd, and Paperblade, will posts thoughts about them later), but that takes time and I'd rather immediately respond to quarries which takes like 10 minutes in comparison instead of holding them off until I finish looking through the ISOs and they no longer remain relevant.

If Elieson isn't SK, actually is there any possibility of just a second scum team?

Wouldn't there be the possibility of a second third party team?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

yo is there a cult or something

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

that can kill

[BBM]

Votals

Paperblade (4): Elieson, Eclipse, Scorri, Euklyd

Refa (3): Weapons, Paperblade, Marth

Not Voting (3): Refa, Boron, Psych

With 10 players alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch at deadline and 7 to hammer. Phase ends on October 3rd at 9PM EDT (October 4th at 1AM GMT). You have 24 hours left in the phase.

[Refa]

scorri

Day 1

So the first thing that pinged me about scorri is that she was incredibly non committal in her first reads post. Out of her five reads (on Eclipse, Viata, Weapons, Euklyd, and me), the first four she had what basically amounted to a null read while the fifth was the only one which she had built a case on (which, to be fair, for the most part was logically sound). She votes SB later on (the first time, before she became the counterwagon to his wagon) when she spent literally no other posts talking about him. This just strikes me as rather suspicious, although whether it's the act of a) lazy townie, b) scum bussing teammate, or c) SK is hard to tell at this point. Now, Paper calls her out for changing her stances and I...don't really agree with that. My issue is that her stances are somewhat flimsy, but to my knowledge she's been rather consistent in keeping said stances. Now, this is where scorri claims backup. If this was truly the case, wouldn't she have been able to backup Shinori's role and use it on Night 2? (I'm not sure how a backup for any role could work, but considering the standard one is instantaneous I assumed it was a Day action; please disregard this sentence if it is a night action). Later on she complains because Paperblade wrote about 4 lines on her, which is rather hypocritical because she had written less than 2 about SB in that case. I don't feel like her vote on him had any basis in catching scum but rather to push the lynch off of her.

Day 2

First thing she does is vote Paper, and one of her points is that his interactions with Manix feel like a slapfight, with Manix never putting down a vote on him. This is silly, because the same thing could be said about the Eclipse/Bizz arguments before, yet she read that as a null read; the logic seems inconsistent. Her reason for assuming that she's town is ridiculous, because although I will admit that scum bussing her at the last second is rather unlikely, the possibility that she's the SK is very real. I feel like she's been using this logic to coast through the game so far, and it bothers me that literally noone gives a fuck about this. Then after the Euklyd reaction test, it seems like she spends the rest of the day tunneling in onto Paperblade and defending herself rather than providing other new reads.

Day 3

Doesn't really do much most of the Day 3 besides voting Paperblade for...the same two reasons as the last two days. That just strikes me as really lazy, she couldn't come up with any new reads off of him?

Conclusion

As you can tell, after Day 1 it just seems like scorri has been coasting without really helping at scumhunting or providing new reads; for some reason, this bothers almost noone except myself and Weapons (unless he's being facetious, I can never tell with him). I don't believe that scorri is scum, but rather she's the only other one I'd believe is ITP SK besides perhaps Elieson (more inclined to believe that scorri is though based on her past actions).

Euklyd

Day 1

OK, so his reads have the same issue as scorri in that they don't take a definite stance on anyone (only posted a line or two on his scum reads, which were Viata and Manix), and he didn't even manage to vote someone until a few posts later. This is when he voted Paperblade, solely for his massclaiming idea, which I feel was a bit of a copout, since that alone is not an inherently scummy idea. I can see the scum intent in his cop Shinori idea, especially since with Shinori's role it would be easy to determine his alignment through PoE in the next couple of days. Therefore, this seems like a thinly veiled ploy to get the cop killed rather than to provide an actual benefit to the town (to my knowledge, the cop is better off surviving for a couple of days before providing reads).

Then whoah, holy wall of text, Batman. So Euklyd reads scorri as his (top?) scumread, which leads me to believe that he and scorri are not scumbuddies (I get that there's distancing, but his read does not strike me as that). I'm not sure I really agree with the logic behind his scum reads, however seeing as that's more of a personal preference than me detecting scuminess in his post, I'll drop it for now. However, it strikes me odd that he'd make such a long post without taking a definite stance on way or the other. He later votes SO for the same reasons as he voted Manix, which is to say, "playing it relatively safe." I'm not even sure what that means, how was Manix playing it safe and how was that indicative of his scuminess (yes, I know that he flipped scum, but that only makes sense in retrospect). Considering that he had voted Paperblade before and had focused the primary brunt of his suspicions on Paper, this strikes me as an 11th hour switch more than anything else. Later on he waffles on SB quite a bit actually, which seems like uncertain scum deciding whether or not to bus his teammate.

Day 2

I don't like how he basically admitted to having no good defense, however honestly I don't see any scum intent in stating that, so that particular point is a null tell. Besides the Weapons reaction test, the rest of his day 2 is really unmemorable tbh, which is not a good sign as scum benefit from blending in rather than standing out.

Day 3

This is the first time I've noticed it, but it really seems like Euklyd is trying to buddy with Boron for town cred. A lot of his arguments assume that she is town, when there's no way one (besides Boron doh) can be sure if that's the case (for the record, I have Boron as a town read, but having as a town read and assuming that she is town are two completely different things) unless they are scum/some tracker of some kind (although since Euklyd claimed BGO, this shouldn't be the case).

Conclusion

I can see some scum intent in several of the actions that Euklyd has taken, however I don't feel quite as confident of my case on him as I do on scorri. However, I would be willing to consolidate a lynch on him if necessary.

In any case, I'm finding scorri to be the most suspicious of players atm (will post my Paperblade read soon, but suffice to say, I'm not seeing the scum intent in a lot of his posts that others are), so that's where my vote is going.

##Vote: scorri

[Refa]

Damn.

So you can't just say "I successfully watched [Player X] and am still alive, so therefore [Player X] must be innocent".

This kinda sucks, now that it's claimed.

Also Elieson, how can you get an INNO if this is the case? Does it have something to do with the role of the person you watched?

[Elieson]

Refa I called you out here because you're here and not voting. Psych and boron haven't been around too much during this phase, and Euklyd has been postin infrequently all phase as well. You've been quite around and not voting. For instance, I could call psych out for it but he obviously hasn't been here and posting too much. I wouldn't waste my time wht inquisition on the absent. Otherwise I could have death tunneled Kay before Marth jumped in.

Go develop your scumreads and ISO what you can, but don't try to redirect my frustrations. It shouldn't matter to you if I call someone else out for doing somethig [or not]. The fact is, I brought a point to the floor against you. You saying "but X and Y aren't voting, so why should I?" Is a sucky rebuttal and makes you look significantly worse for not only questioning my accusations, but not pursuing those players for not voting.

[Refa]

The fact is, I brought a point to the floor against you. You saying "but X and Y aren't voting, so why should I?" Is a sucky rebuttal and makes you look significantly worse for not only questioning my accusations, but not pursuing those players for not voting.

Considering that I agreed with your point, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. However, if I honestly found not voting as scummy as you did (and thus, would need to pursue players for not doing so), do you think I would have not voted regardless of my alignment?

[Elieson]

Also Elieson, how can you get an INNO if this is the case? Does it have something to do with the role of the person you watched?

Ok to explain more clearly, I'll just call it a "Life". If i successfully watch a player, I get the watch results, and I either lose a "life" per se, or I don't. If I get watch results & lose a "life", then I found a non-town player. If I get watch results & didn't lose a "life", I found town.

My successful N2 watch provided me with results (of which I'm not outing, whether they include someone visiting my target or not, that's not necessary information for the time being), and I didn't lose a "life". Therefore, my target was town.

I can find non-town once. The second time I find a non-town, I seppuku myself.

Considering that I agreed with your point, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. However, if I honestly found not voting as scummy as you did (and thus, would need to pursue players for not doing so), do you think I would have not voted regardless of my alignment?

Yes. Also considering how many other no votes there are, it's rather bizzare that you choose only to focus on me.

This is the point I was primarily referring to. I'm not sure if we're on equal understanding here.

p.edit *Euklyd claimed PGO* Though, those are the kind of explainations I [read, we] are looking for.

[scorri]

Hooooooooooookay. First off, sorry for completely not exisiting. I've had homework, and a test coming up, and just general major stress from living in new city, etc. etc. Basically, these last few days have been real hard, but hopefully I'll exist more now. So.

Day 1

So the first thing that pinged me about scorri is that she was incredibly non committal in her first reads post. Out of her five reads (on Eclipse, Viata, Weapons, Euklyd, and me), the first four she had what basically amounted to a null read while the fifth was the only one which she had built a case on (which, to be fair, for the most part was logically sound). She votes SB later on (the first time, before she became the counterwagon to his wagon) when she spent literally no other posts talking about him. This just strikes me as rather suspicious, although whether it's the act of a) lazy townie, b) scum bussing teammate, or c) SK is hard to tell at this point. Now, Paper calls her out for changing her stances and I...don't really agree with that. My issue is that her stances are somewhat flimsy, but to my knowledge she's been rather consistent in keeping said stances. Now, this is where scorri claims backup. If this was truly the case, wouldn't she have been able to backup Shinori's role and use it on Night 2? (I'm not sure how a backup for any role could work, but considering the standard one is instantaneous I assumed it was a Day action; please disregard this sentence if it is a night action). Later on she complains because Paperblade wrote about 4 lines on her, which is rather hypocritical because she had written less than 2 about SB in that case. I don't feel like her vote on him had any basis in catching scum but rather to push the lynch off of her.

Right. So, wrt backup, I did in fact use my role on Shinori. However... I was dumb and didn't ask a question that I should have and, well, basically what it comes down to is I'm now vanilla because I don't refuel shots. I assumed that since Shinori died, his 1-shot wouldn't have counted as used, but apparently it did. So herp on me. Also, I would have been able to use it N3, not N2. It's not instant and it's a night role. Also, of course I was trying to get the lynch off of me. I'm town, and I know I am, therefore SB had a much better chance at being scum than I did. And, hey, he's scum. Now, I know that doesn't prove I'm town, but the attempt at a turbowagon on me when scum was the opposite wagon should indicate that it's less likely that I'm scum if nothing else.

Day 2

First thing she does is vote Paper, and one of her points is that his interactions with Manix feel like a slapfight, with Manix never putting down a vote on him. This is silly, because the same thing could be said about the Eclipse/Bizz arguments before, yet she read that as a null read; the logic seems inconsistent. Her reason for assuming that she's town is ridiculous, because although I will admit that scum bussing her at the last second is rather unlikely, the possibility that she's the SK is very real. I feel like she's been using this logic to coast through the game so far, and it bothers me that literally noone gives a fuck about this. Then after the Euklyd reaction test, it seems like she spends the rest of the day tunneling in onto Paperblade and defending herself rather than providing other new reads.

Different days. Different things. With Eclipse/Bizz, neither had flipped. I had no solid read on either of them, so it comes down to null. With Manix/Paper, Manix had flipped. I *knew* that Manix was scum and rereading things made me think that Paper was scum as opposed to town fighting with Manix. It's also different because Eclipse and Bizz both voted for each other. You're comparing two slightly similar situations but completely ignoring everything that makes them different to allow for you to find me scummy for it. Don't like this line of thinking one bit. Also don't like the bit where you're assuming I'm SK because... I tunnel on Paper and defend myself?

Day 3

Doesn't really do much most of the Day 3 besides voting Paperblade for...the same two reasons as the last two days. That just strikes me as really lazy, she couldn't come up with any new reads off of him?

Never voted Paper D1 first off. Second off, my reasons for voting paper are he jumped on my bandwagon for very little reason, and he hasn't done anything to convince me he's town since.

Conclusion

As you can tell, after Day 1 it just seems like scorri has been coasting without really helping at scumhunting or providing new reads; for some reason, this bothers almost noone except myself and Weapons (unless he's being facetious, I can never tell with him). I don't believe that scorri is scum, but rather she's the only other one I'd believe is ITP SK besides perhaps Elieson (more inclined to believe that scorri is though based on her past actions).

Yes, I have been coasting. It happens, especially when I'm busy. But, that in and of itself does not scum make. If you look over past games, there's plenty of examples of scum coasting, of ITPs coasting, and of town coasting. If literally the only reason you're voting on me is because of a lack of effort, I would like to encourage you to try again because that's not a solid case and doesn't indicate scummieness either way. And the way that you're ITP hunting instead of scum hunting makes me even more comfortable with a lynch on you. You've been a scum read sitting at the back of my mind while I've been focusing on Paper, but I'd be just fine lynching you too.

[Refa]

This is the point I was primarily referring to. I'm not sure if we're on equal understanding here.

I meant that I agreed with you in regards to it being noncommittal.

[scorri]

Grassbridger (1): Bearclaw
SB (7): Boron, Euklyd, Kirsche, Scorri, Weapons, Grassbridger, Elieson
Scorri (6): Eclipse, Refa, Bizz, Paperblade, Psych, Shinori
Euklyd (1): SB

Confirmed Scum

Confirmed Town

Confirmed ITP

Suspected Town (by me)

With Bizz flip, that narrows down the people that jumped on my wagon to Refa, Paper, and Psych. Psych's call on Elie makes me slightly less likely to call him scum, but I could also see the scum intent in it. Overall, the two people I'd fully support getting lynched are Refa and Paper. Besides that... I don't know tbh. Euklyd could be ITP with the PGO claim, but that's ITP spec and isn't solid or worth exploring right now. Basically, I'm content leaving my vote where it is for right now.

[Elieson]

Lol Scum received no towncred of calling out ITPs for existing. Look at Schoolteacher, and the hilarious debacle from me calling out the cult.

[eclipse]

Paperblade, you're the best at not answering things.

scorri: Assuming that there's scum on your turbowagon (so far, Bizz/Shinori flipped town), then all that says is that you're not mafia. While refuting Refa's case is your job, I think that him suspecting you as SK isn't completely unreasonable (as you have been kind of coasting on the counter-wagon thing), if he thinks that SK is a role unto itself, and got a fake on top of it. However, Refa voting for someone who he thinks isn't scum is extremely bad.

Since Paperblade refuses to acknowledge my existence, I'm going to acknowledge his by nominating him for today's lynch. If Refa is lynched instead of Paperblade, I won't complain (see D2 sentiments, but replace the pudding with the paper).