Fire Emblem with the worst balance?

[dondon151]

brave lance is pretty garbage defensively because it weighs too much. its accuracy is fair, though, so you could use it to kill magic units without taking a counter, but promoted magic users still require the unit to have a good bit of str in order to 2HKO. but using it is not very safe and there aren't many cases where it's a better choice over killer or silver.

the brave bow is just so good in FE6 because you get essentially free damage at fair accuracy against tough unit types, and it slaughters wyvern lords (whereas silver bow only does a huge chunk of damage but doesn't ever OHKO). it's also stronger than a killer bow. i do prefer killer when the unit could double either way, but the snipers in FE6 are pretty slow. shin, on the other hand, should probably use killer and silver almost exclusively.

Edited October 23, 2013 by dondon151

[CT075]

Regardless, I'd say there's a difference between needing to wait for foot units to catch up in a game where the average mount has 3 more move than your average foot class

you're overestimating more than a fair bit

my issue with fe4's balance is that it's more holy weapon emblem

[Tamanoir]

you're overestimating more than a fair bit

my issue with fe4's balance is that it's more holy weapon emblem

Holy weapons is without a doubt the most unfair advantage. Lewyn woud be on par with Azel without it, Quan would be worse than Finn.

[Shadow Mir]

you're overestimating more than a fair bit

my issue with fe4's balance is that it's more holy weapon emblem

I agree that holy weapons are the most unfair advantage by far. But I still think that it being mount heaven doesn't help matters.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I agree that holy weapons are the most unfair advantage by far. But I still think that it being mount heaven doesn't help matters.

I thought the best character in FE4 is not mounted(at first) and did not have Holy Weapon >_>

[BrightBow]

My fundamental issue with non-mounted units in FE4 is more related to the enemies always coming in groups.

A mounted unit can charge in, cause damage and position itself so that the counter attack on the enemy phase would be minimal.

Foot units can't do that, so when they engage the enemy they are always in the midst of the enemy army.

So they will either be ganged up and killed or they survive and effectively destroy the entire army by them self, at which point the game is officially broken. Which means that unless they are already overpowered, they will either be set up to counter on enemy phase or charge in once the enemy army is already so weakened that they won't survive the turn. As a result, they won't get much EXP and fall back.

It's not that bad for units like Ayra and Jamka, since they can completely crush the arena. So they are usually immensely powerful enough to survive tons of enemies. But someone like Azel simply can't risk getting close to the enemy unless someone immediately steps in and covers his ass during enemy phase.

But yeah, Balmunk and Holsety are ridiculous. I have no idea why they would give the player no less then two weapons that make the user near invincible. I guess they underestimated the changes in the avoid formula.

Edited October 24, 2013 by BrightBow

[Refa]

I thought the best character in FE4 is not mounted(at first) and did not have Holy Weapon >_>

Deirdre never gets a mount, unless you're referring to Sigurd!

[PKL]

I count 33/54 redeemable units in FE6

I count like 40/77 redeemable or useful units in HM FE10. Some of which are just because of availability. Some of them are only used because theres no option and then theyre obsoleted.

I count 28/59 good units in Shadow Dragon. I didn't count Midia Matthis Vyland and Roshea, because I havent had sucess with them in H5.

I count like 48/78 redeemable units in H2-H3 FE12. Not counting scrubs that are usable but really shouldn't be used like Cord Matthis and Bord lulz.

And then I count 1/whatever is the number of units in FE13. You only need 1 Avatar!

*changes vote to Awakening*

EDIT: I counted the endgame clerics for some reason in 12 even though they have 1 map they're still super useful!

Edited October 24, 2013 by PKL

[Shadow Mir]

My fundamental issue with non-mounted units in FE4 is more related to the enemies always coming in groups.

A mounted unit can charge in, cause damage and position itself so that the counter attack on the enemy phase would be minimal.

Foot units can't do that, so when they engage the enemy they are always in the midst of the enemy army.

So they will either be ganged up and killed or they survive and effectively destroy the entire army by them self, at which point the game is officially broken. Which means that unless they are already overpowered, they will either be set up to counter on enemy phase or charge in once the enemy army is already so weakened that they won't survive the turn. As a result, they won't get much EXP and fall back.

It's not that bad for units like Ayra and Jamka, since they can completely crush the arena. So they are usually immensely powerful enough to survive tons of enemies. But someone like Azel simply can't risk getting close to the enemy unless someone immediately steps in and covers his ass during enemy phase.

But yeah, Balmunk and Holsety are ridiculous. I have no idea why they would give the player no less then two weapons that make the user near invincible. I guess they underestimated the changes in the avoid formula.

That's part of what I'm getting at. Also, WRT holy weapons... Consider the fact that the strongest weapons in the series barring those mostly only have somewhere in the lower 20s Mt wise (the strongest non-holy weapon in the series is RD's Double Bow; also, some of those weapons are the ultimate dark tomes in the GBA games, which are impractical to use because they're mega-heavy), and DON'T give gamebreaking boosts to their users..

Edited October 24, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Vykan_12]

I think you guys are overstating the imbalancing power of FE4 holy weapons a little. Sure, the characters who get to use holy weapons are the very definitions of cheese, but that's only a significant balancing faux-pas if the rest of your crew fights like Micaiah holding a heron. That's not really the case.

In gen 1, Cuan and Sigurd get a holy weapon but for such a short time it barely matters, and they're already cheese enough without the weapons anyway. I suppose Levin gets holsety too, but that's somewhat balanced by his lack of pursuit.

In gen 2 you get Shannan, Aless and Artur who are basically lethal explosions of cheese, sure. But it's not as though the rest of your cast are pushovers. You have Fin, Oifaye, Celice (pre-tyrfing), Leaf, Lakche, Skasha, Delmud, Lester and other possible OP pairings that can more than hold their own in combat. If you distribute your stat boosting rings and load up kills on the proper weapons (eg/ brave lance), you will steamroll maps with or without holy weapon usage. The game's just easy if you know what you're doing.

Now contrast holy weapon h3x to other games in the series. Is FE8 Seth no less a cheat code than all the holy weapon shenanigans of FE4 combined, for instance? What about the combination of FE9 Titania and Marcia/Jill? Hell, FE9 and 10 BEXP is probably more broken than holy weapons since it has the raw potential to turn anyone into terminator jesus, and you're supplied enough BEXP to do this with a core of 8-10+ units. What about a weapon like FE9-10 Ragnell? Highly accurate 1-2 range sword with 18 mt and +5 def that almost automatically allows Ike to ORKO everyone and their mother? Sure, there aren't quite as many weapons like the ragnell in those games, but it at least shows FE4 isn't the sole offender in this category. Some of FE5's weapons like the pugi axe also come to mind.

[Shadow Mir]

I think you guys are overstating the imbalancing power of FE4 holy weapons a little. Sure, the characters who get to use holy weapons are the very definitions of cheese, but that's only a significant balancing faux-pas if the rest of your crew fights like Micaiah holding a heron. That's not really the case.

In gen 1, Cuan and Sigurd get a holy weapon but for such a short time it barely matters, and they're already cheese enough without the weapons anyway. I suppose Levin gets holsety too, but that's somewhat balanced by his lack of pursuit.

In gen 2 you get Shannan, Aless and Artur who are basically lethal explosions of cheese, sure. But it's not as though the rest of your cast are pushovers. You have Fin, Oifaye, Celice (pre-tyrfing), Leaf, Lakche, Skasha, Delmud, Lester and other possible OP pairings that can more than hold their own in combat. If you distribute your stat boosting rings and load up kills on the proper weapons (eg/ brave lance), you will steamroll maps with or without holy weapon usage. The game's just easy if you know what you're doing.

Now contrast holy weapon h3x to other games in the series. Is FE8 Seth no less a cheat code than all the holy weapon shenanigans of FE4 combined, for instance? What about the combination of FE9 Titania and Marcia/Jill? Hell, FE9 and 10 BEXP is probably more broken than holy weapons since it has the raw potential to turn anyone into terminator jesus, and you're supplied enough BEXP to do this with a core of 8-10+ units. What about a weapon like FE9-10 Ragnell? Highly accurate 1-2 range sword with 18 mt and +5 def that almost automatically allows Ike to ORKO everyone and their mother? Sure, there aren't quite as many weapons like the ragnell in those games, but it at least shows FE4 isn't the sole offender in this category. Some of FE5's weapons like the pugi axe also come to mind.

Perhaps, but another issue here is that mounts' innate advantage gets magnified to alarming levels, thanks to the maps being huge as they are, and the enemies coming at you in massive groups doesn't help.

[Irysa]

I count 33/54 redeemable units in FE6

Wut.

The only irreedeemably bad units are like, Wendy, Sophia, and Cath. Cath has thief utility but is pointless since you have 2 thieves by this point anyway. Wendy completely pointless and nigh impossible to train, so is Sophia (Sophia gets you a guiding ring but thats not really counting her actual usability...). Lilina is borderline just because she's an anima mage (not terrible accuracy for 1-2 chipping or feeding a kill) and has a stupid fast support with Roy.

Being outclassed does not make you unreedeemable. Pretty much everyone else is more than usable, even shit like Barth can get insta knight crested and become basically invincible for quite a while.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Irysa

[General Banzai]

exactly but vyland

man just try to use vyland on anything that isnt babydicks mode

eeeerrrraaaaaaaaargh what a smug piece of shit why do the japanese like you so much

[dondon151]

The only irreedeemably bad units are like, Wendy, Sophia, and Cath.

douglas

i mean, let's not kid ourselves here, generals are nigh unusable in FE6 for a variety of reasons. but i still don't see 21 irredeemable characters in the FE6 cast. maybe around, like, 10 at most.

[Irysa]

Douglas is invincible to tons of things in Sacae and Ilia, even if he can't hit them. That has to count for something <_<

Being unrescuable is pretty damning though.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Irysa

[PKL]

I didn't count:

1- Roy himself

2- Wolt

3- Bors

4- Wade

5- Lott

6- Dorothy

7- Lilina (she's definetely pure garb)

8- Wendy

9- Barth

10- Oujay (though maybe I should include him? idk, he seems like a worse Dieck and his spd base is even worse than what Dieck had back then)

11- Gonzales

12- Geese

13- Ray (borderline IMO the lack of HM bonuses is too crippling and then Niime exists)

14- Cath

15- Sophia

16- Hugh (costs boots, screw you, his stats will always be lowered)

17- Douglas

18- Dayan (I guess he has a mount?)

19- Yuno (technically not unusable but come on)

20- Karel (failed Athos)

I forgot which was the 21 but a lot of those are as "useful" and "viable" as a reclassed cleric/curate in the DS games.

[General Horace]

I didn't count:

1- Roy himself

2- Wolt

3- Bors

4- Wade

5- Lott

6- Dorothy

7- Lilina (she's definetely pure garb)

8- Wendy

9- Barth

10- Oujay (though maybe I should include him? idk, he seems like a worse Dieck and his spd base is even worse than what Dieck had back then)

11- Gonzales

12- Geese

13- Ray (borderline IMO the lack of HM bonuses is too crippling and then Niime exists)

14- Cath

15- Sophia

16- Hugh (costs boots, screw you, his stats will always be lowered)

17- Douglas

18- Dayan (I guess he has a mount?)

19- Yuno (technically not unusable but come on)

20- Karel (failed Athos)

I forgot which was the 21 but a lot of those are as "useful" and "viable" as a reclassed cleric/curate in the DS games.

Lott, Oujay, Gonzo, Ray, Hugh, Dayan, and Karel are more than useable

and even units like Lilina and Geese are definately redeemable

[Irysa]

What exactly are you trying to say with "ireedeemably bad" when you list Karel there? That alone just makes me feel like not even responding to that post seriously...

[PKL]

Lott, Oujay, Gonzo, Ray, Hugh, Dayan, and Karel are more than useable

and even units like Lilina and Geese are definately redeemable

Lott is usable if you don't mind gambling every freaking hit. Oujay has terrible bases and is only usable because the next maps are all axefests. Even in axeland, he doesn't really double ever and is outclassed by Dieck. Gonzo has the same issue as Lott, which is way too crippling. Ray sucks so much in HM. Hugh is terrible because he's never paid. I concede Dayan, because I thought his spd base was a lot worse. And see below on Karel.

What exactly are you trying to say with "ireedeemably bad" when you list Karel there? That alone just makes me feel like not even responding to that post seriously...

He comes way too late and has inadequate bases. Especially move. When all the other units are sporting "I cross 1000 tile maps in 2 turns" movement, he has 6. Lol

[dondon151]

2- Wolt

3- Bors

4- Wade

5- Lott

6- Dorothy

you pretty much have to use these guys at some point and they give you decent mileage.

7- Lilina (she's definetely pure garb)

11- Gonzales

12- Geese

13- Ray (borderline IMO the lack of HM bonuses is too crippling and then Niime exists)

16- Hugh (costs boots, screw you, his stats will always be lowered)

18- Dayan (I guess he has a mount?)

19- Yuno (technically not unusable but come on)

20- Karel (failed Athos)

I forgot which was the 21 but a lot of those are as "useful" and "viable" as a reclassed cleric/curate in the DS games.

most of these are unusable in minimum LTC aside from in a couple of niche roles, but every game has a huge list of characters that sit more or less untouched in minimum LTC, so you're going to have to do a bit better with your justification. probably at least half of these are more useful than reclassed curate in LTC.

karel is actually pretty useful in chapter 24 if you don't want fae to die, otherwise he can go sit on the bench.

[Irysa]

In what world do you live in to make Karel's bases bad? 23 speed is enough to double everything and he has like a billion crit, and comes with free S rank to use Durandal with. He's not going to be as good as your godmode MIledy or Percival or w/e but being worse than some of the best units in the game doesn't make him "ireedeemably bad". This is why I'm questioning your definition of the term, a unit not being as good as another or preforming a function that is doable by another unit does not make said unit bad at all, they actually have to be not just worse, they have to SUUUUUCK.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Irysa

[General Horace]

Lott is usable if you don't mind gambling every freaking hit. Oujay has terrible bases and is only usable because the next maps are all axefests. Even in axeland, he doesn't really double ever and is outclassed by Dieck. Gonzo has the same issue as Lott, which is way too crippling. Ray sucks so much in HM. Hugh is terrible because he's never paid. I concede Dayan, because I thought his spd base was a lot worse. And see below on Karel.

He comes way too late and has inadequate bases. Especially move. When all the other units are sporting "I cross 1000 tile maps in 2 turns" movement, he has 6. Lol

lott is pretty solid until the isles, and there are lots of 5AS fighters/brigands in the isles on HM for even base oujay to double, ray can at the very least instapromote into 16 magic which isn't going to be matched in a long time

gonzales has little to no competition on the secret books and gets +5 skill on promotion and is probably the only unit in a physical class that can actually slay lategame wyvern lords without an S-Rank weapon

the solution of having a shitty hugh is to pay for a not shitty hugh, not everyone buys like 15 pairs of boots

and karel's bases are totally fine, he can kill dragons in the last chapter which is pretty much all any gotoh is expected to do

and there's a difference in being useless in ltc and being useless in just playing the game however you want, units like sophia and macellan are always pretty useless

[PKL]

lott is pretty solid until the isles, and there are lots of 5AS fighters/brigands in the isles on HM for even base oujay to double, ray can at the very least instapromote into 16 magic which isn't going to be matched in a long time

gonzales has little to no competition on the secret books and gets +5 skill on promotion and is probably the only unit in a physical class that can actually slay lategame wyvern lords without an S-Rank weapon

the solution of having a shitty hugh is to pay for a not shitty hugh, not everyone buys like 15 pairs of boots

and karel's bases are totally fine, he can kill dragons in the last chapter which is pretty much all any gotoh is expected to do

and there's a difference in being useless in ltc and being useless in just playing the game however you want, units like sophia and macellan are always pretty useless

But Macellan has unique utility! Dat door key.

I'll take your word for it. My experience with the game tells me they suck. But if you say they don't, I'll trust you.

EDIT: Whoa! I hadn't looked at the poll for a long time. Why is FE4 winning by so much now? o_O

Edited October 25, 2013 by PKL

[General Horace]

there's no doubt they suck, but they're not unusable

uhh FE11 MACELLAN COULD HAVE REALLY USED THAT DOOR KEY

[Shadow Mir]

EDIT: Whoa! I hadn't looked at the poll for a long time. Why is FE4 winning by so much now? o_O

Holy weapons and huge maps.