The competitive teams topic.

[Redwall]

But you can also switch out, predicting their switch. Or use Knock off.

"But you can also predict" is not sound when a risk-reward analysis of the predictions and outcomes thereof heavily favors the Mega Lucario player over the Mega Banette player.

If the Mega Lucario stays in and you incorrectly predict, you'll either get swept if you try to use Knock Off, or lose another Pokemon if you switch out Mega Banette. In contrast, if the Mega Lucario switches out and you correctly predict this, the gains are very small for the Mega Banette: at best you Knock Off the opponent's item or gain a tempo with a double-switch, with the threat of a Mega Lucario assault still looming. Even getting in Mega Banette against Mega Lucario requires the loss of another Pokemon or a risky prediction (+0 Flash Cannon 2HKOs most Mega Banette who switch in expecting a Nasty Plot).

[Comet]

I use max HP and special defense and special defense, so that isn't much of a problem for me. If I feel like staying in, since I know I can take a Dark Pulse, I can just use thunder wave to cripple Lucario, outside of his priority of choice, which doesn't matter anymore. Or, like I said before, I could predict the switch and use knock off, since some people would like to keep their Lucario alive. Revenge killing weak Lucarios with Shadow Sneak is also nice. And Destiny Bond if possible. I know it can be predicted, but Banette has to be killed somehow. Also having Pokemon faint isn't always bad to get my Banette in, since it might not be useful anymore anyway.

[Redwall]

You are just rehashing your previous post. I'm aware that Mega Banette can use Knock Off on a predicted switch. The issue is that the reward for predicting correctly (making your opponent lose an item) is generally not worth the risk of getting swept. If Mega Banette is your best answer to Mega Lucario, then you'll have to continue sacrificing Pokemon to safely get it in, since even a 252 HP / 252+ SDef Mega Banette takes a minimum of 45.1% max HP from a Timid Mega Lucario's Flash Cannon. Even if you do get it in and cripple the opponent's switch, the opponent will often be glad to sacrifice his switch-in to a Destiny Bond if it opens the way for a sweep by Mega Lucario or some other Pokemon.

[Comet]

Except I actually have other ways to deal with mega Luke. I just prefer to do counter or at least force switches with Banette. If I get sweeped due to not having any other answers, that just me having a bad team, which is a different problem (btw Hippowdon, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Celebi with HP Fire say hi, and Specs Latias for outspeeding turn 1). If the person switches out, that'll be some damage or paralysis, unless I try for a Destiny Bond. Even if that happens, it's not the end of the world. Banette doesn't always have to kill something for me to get the upper hand. It's not like I recklessly go for the Destiny Bond all the time either. I have a brain and the ability to predict obvious switches.

[CT075]

i am definitely doing something wrong

dragonite is mixed attacker (thunder/hurricane/aqua tail/espeed), will probably swap that out since it doesn't really help me at all beyond "oh hey i can switch into things when multiscale is up"

exca is my spinner

i've been leading with either exca or CB terrakion (nets surprise kills on a lot of things i've seen)

[Espinosa]

You should try Weakness Policy on that Multiscale Dragonite if you haven't yet. Makes your coverage a lot more threatening. I'd consider Roost over Aqua Tail to keep your HP high.

It's probably not a bad idea to lead with Dnite, unless you intend to sweep with it endgame (imho, I'd work to take out Excadrill's and Terrakion's counters instead), partly because you don't have to switch into rocks. Leading with Terrakion checks many of the SR setters (not the Deoxys guys though, against whom you don't have many tools to prevent them from dropping all the possible layers on you at once, but then there's Rapid Spin) though, eliminating some of them on turn 1 on occasion, so you could try to ensure Dragonite's sweep, but honestly, it's too slow without Dragon Dance.

[Redwall]

Except I actually have other ways to deal with mega Luke.

Okay dude, this whole discussion started from a post you made about Mega Banette being capable of checking broken stuff. Not Hippowdon, Scarf Terrakion, or Celebi--Mega Banette. If you wanted to play Calvinball, you should've said so from the start.

(btw Hippowdon, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Celebi with HP Fire say hi, and Specs Latias for outspeeding turn 1).

None of these are reliable checks to Mega Lucario. Specially defensive Hippowdon takes a minimum of 77.6% from a +2 Flash Cannon, and physically defensive Hippowdon gets OHKOed; Choice Scarf Terrakion gets OHKOed by a +2 Vacuum Wave; non-Scarf Celebi's HP Fire gets outpaced for the KO by a +2 Mega Lucario regardless of the EV spread (even if you're running Assault Vest and you're EVed to be 3HKOed by Mega Lucario, you'll also only 3HKO Mega Lucario with HP Fire); Specs Latias gets outsped, assuming that, like you, your opponent also has a brain and won't transform in front of a Latias, and OHKOed by +2 Flash Cannon.

While it is certainly true that these Pokemon generally exert enough offensive pressure to prevent Mega Lucario from setting up in front of them, they do not reliably stop a Mega Lucario that has already set up. Without a solid check, unless all your Pokemon exert this kind of pressure, it is not particularly difficult for a Mega Lucario to find these opportunities.

If the person switches out, that'll be some damage or paralysis

I've already mentioned why it generally won't matter. Your opponent knows that if you're not going for Destiny Bond, you're likely going for a status move, Knock Off, or Shadow Sneak. A lot of Pokemon have little trouble switching into any of these.

[Nobody]

Is smogon considering banning mega lucario? Or have they already done that?

[CT075]

You should try Weakness Policy on that Multiscale Dragonite if you haven't yet. Makes your coverage a lot more threatening. I'd consider Roost over Aqua Tail to keep your HP high.

that sounds like a good idea; i have leftovers on as the hope to restore my multiscale but roost is probably better for that

I had aqua tail so I have a hope against something like skarmory but I just realized (like, just now ;/) that THunder does that (hurricane could probably deal with hippowdon)

It's probably not a bad idea to lead with Dnite, unless you intend to sweep with it endgame (imho, I'd work to take out Excadrill's and Terrakion's counters instead), partly because you don't have to switch into rocks.

That might be a good idea, but the fact that two of its moves are unreliable without rain support doesn't sit well with me (oh yeah i do lead with the support politoed occasionally)

Leading with Terrakion checks many of the SR setters (not the Deoxys guys though, against whom you don't have many tools to prevent them from dropping all the possible layers on you at once, but then there's Rapid Spin) though, eliminating some of them on turn 1 on occasion, so you could try to ensure Dragonite's sweep, but honestly, it's too slow without Dragon Dance.

X-SCISSOR/QUICK ATTACK TERRAKION OP

i'm sort of thinking that dragonite is a bad fit on my team in general; it doesn't have any particular offensive synergy with anything I have (i guess it takes out excadrill checks but my excadrill is largely SR/RS support with the added ability to kill stuff with EQ/Iron Head). but idk what to swap it with

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Is smogon considering banning mega lucario? Or have they already done that?

The next definite suspect is Deoxys-S

BTW after losing all of my team thanks to cookie deletion, I remade my team from scratch

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75303361

It feels terrible

EDIT: I'm still waiting for the "you just won cuz you used broken shit, noob" comment lol

Edited January 6, 2014 by JSND

[Chiki]

There's a billion ways to deal with Mega Lucario. Since if suffers from moveslot syndrome, if you give it Ice Punch, it can't deal with Jellicent and Gyarados; if you give it Crunch, it can't deal with Salamence, Dragonite and Gyarados; if you give it Stone Edge, it can't deal with Jellicent and Cresselia.

Talonflame is a pretty perfect check to it now that Extremespeed has been nerfed. Keldeo is pretty good too.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Chiki

[Chocolate Kitty]

have fun in UU beta

seriously

fucking stupidest tier ever created

go on, try it, make yourself a UU team and play in the tier

[CT075]

UU KELDEO

[Redwall]

There's a billion ways to deal with Mega Lucario. Since if suffers from moveslot syndrome, if you give it Ice Punch, it can't deal with Jellicent and Gyarados; if you give it Crunch, it can't deal with Salamence, Dragonite and Gyarados; if you give it Stone Edge, it can't deal with Jellicent and Cresselia.

Since no one should ever use Stone Edge or Ice Punch, I'll give you defensive Gyarados (offensive variants get OHKOed by a +1 Close Combat if SR is up) as a counter, and TWave Cresselia as a check, though Cresselia's otherwise a liability in the current OU metagame. Even defensive Gyarados is a bit shaky; since teams with defensive Gyarados (or Zapdos) seldom have much offense, the Mega Lucario player has little to risk by double-switching and forcing Gyarados to take SR damage for nothing.

The other guys can be beaten by the Nasty Plot set, which commonly runs Flash Cannon, Aura Sphere, and either Dark Pulse or Vacuum Wave.

Talonflame is a pretty perfect check to it now that Extremespeed has been nerfed. Keldeo is pretty good too.

I'm not aware of any nerf to Extremespeed; it still has +2 priority and 80 BP to my knowledge. Talonflame is out-prioritized and 2HKOed by Extremespeed (OHKO obviously after SR) assuming Mega Lucario has a Swords Dance.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Miikaya

[Chiki]

Since no one should ever use Stone Edge or Ice Punch

Why not Ice Punch? The only issues with running Crunch are basically Aegislash and Jellicent, who, combined, are used less often than Landorus-T and Gliscor. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/official-smogon-university-simulator-statistics-—-december-2013.3496623/

Why aren't Dragonite and Salamence counters to Lucario? Dragonite has Multiscale and Roost. Salamence has Intimidate. Salamence can OHKO Lucario with Earthquake and Lucario can't do much back. Adamant Lucario is countered by Garchomp. Landorus-T and Gliscor are perfect counters for Crunch Lucario.

Talonflame is out-prioritized and 2HKOed by Extremespeed (OHKO obviously after SR) assuming Mega Lucario has a Swords Dance.

I've had my Mega Lucario killed by Talonflame before, if I recall correctly. Though I might be mistaken.

Here's a list of all the pokemon who counter Crunch Lucario:

Landorus-T

Gliscor

Gyarados

Salamence

Keldeo

Infernape

Togekiss (?)

[CT075]

how many of those beat special lucario, though? without any actual numbers I feel that at least some of those would get chunked somewhat by a +2 whatever (a quick skim shows me that none of them resist vacuum wave/dark pulse/flash cannon)

EDIT

yeah i know some of them outspeed but there are others that don't

Edited January 6, 2014 by CT075

[Chocolate Kitty]

Here's a list of all the pokemon who counter Crunch Lucario:

Landorus-T

Gliscor

Gyarados

Salamence

Keldeo

Infernape

Togekiss (?)

HAHAHAHAHAH WHAT

infernape counters pretty much nothing

here i'll show you

if lucario SD's and crunches the ape on the switch it dies to e-speed

if lucario SD's on the switch to the ape it dies to e-speed 63% of the time; 100% of the time if there are rocks up

special variant!

if lucario NP's on the switch to the ape, mach punch doesn't kill lucario if it's at full ever(this is an adamant life orb iron fist ape btw, adamant CB ape kills 31% of the time) and vacuum wave OHKO's 43% of the time, 100% of the time providing SR

so lesson today:

infernape isn't a counter

it's maybe a check

[Chiki]

how many of those beat special lucario, though? without any actual numbers I feel that at least some of those would get chunked somewhat by a +2 whatever (a quick skim shows me that none of them resist vacuum wave/dark pulse/flash cannon)

But just because they don't beat him, doesn't mean others don't. Talonflame is a good example. Dragonite does a fantastic job as well thanks to Multiscale. So does Gyarados who resists both Vacuum Wave and Flash Cannon.

Also, before I forget, Talonflame should go into that list of counters. Mega Lucario runs Bullet Punch not Extremespeed.

HAHAHAHAHAH WHAT

How old are you?

if lucario SD's on the switch to the ape it dies to e-speed

No one runs Extremepeed on Mega Lucario. Only 25%: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6677789/

Infernape can come in on any move bar Close Combat, which is simple to do. Lucario generally starts off using Swords Dance.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Chiki

[dondon151]

1. 25% running extremespeed is still a lot

2. why would lucario start off with SD if the lucario user knows that the opponent has a counter or check waiting in the wings

[CT075]

But just because they don't beat him, doesn't mean others don't. Talonflame is a good example. Dragonite does a fantastic job as well thanks to Multiscale.

yeah talon and dragonite (with no rocks!) can definitely beat all variants

So does Gyarados who resists both Vacuum Wave and Flash Cannon.

Offensive Gyarados:

+2 252 SpA Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

gets chunked pretty hard; if it's completely healthy i'll grant that it beats all MLucarios but with some prior damage i'm not so sure

defensive gyara i'll give you

(on a side note i don't think that mlucario is banworthy)

Edited January 6, 2014 by CT075

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Isn't Mega Venusaur pretty much a near catch all check to Lucario?

[Shahrivar]

Talonflame was a safe bet so far, but I wouldn't switch him in after Lucario used a SD/Nasty Plot.

Mandibuzz seems to be safe aswell (at least it always worked so far)

Talonflame should be able to take two unboosted or one boosted hit at least. Mandibuzz tanks Luke forever if he doesn't have Ice Punch.

I'm not aware of any nerf to Extremespeed; it still has +2 priority and 80 BP to my knowledge. Talonflame is out-prioritized and 2HKOed by Extremespeed (OHKO obviously after SR) assuming Mega Lucario has a Swords Dance.

Then Lucario had two free turns in this case, there's no reason for that - and Luke is a OHKO in return.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Assurhaddon

[Comet]

Okay dude, this whole discussion started from a post you made about Mega Banette being capable of checking broken stuff. Not Hippowdon, Scarf Terrakion, or Celebi--Mega Banette. If you wanted to play Calvinball, you should've said so from the start.

None of these are reliable checks to Mega Lucario. Specially defensive Hippowdon takes a minimum of 77.6% from a +2 Flash Cannon, and physically defensive Hippowdon gets OHKOed; Choice Scarf Terrakion gets OHKOed by a +2 Vacuum Wave; non-Scarf Celebi's HP Fire gets outpaced for the KO by a +2 Mega Lucario regardless of the EV spread (even if you're running Assault Vest and you're EVed to be 3HKOed by Mega Lucario, you'll also only 3HKO Mega Lucario with HP Fire); Specs Latias gets outsped, assuming that, like you, your opponent also has a brain and won't transform in front of a Latias, and OHKOed by +2 Flash Cannon.

While it is certainly true that these Pokemon generally exert enough offensive pressure to prevent Mega Lucario from setting up in front of them, they do not reliably stop a Mega Lucario that has already set up. Without a solid check, unless all your Pokemon exert this kind of pressure, it is not particularly difficult for a Mega Lucario to find these opportunities.

I've already mentioned why it generally won't matter. Your opponent knows that if you're not going for Destiny Bond, you're likely going for a status move, Knock Off, or Shadow Sneak. A lot of Pokemon have little trouble switching into any of these.

Whatever, if again, I prefer to kill things with Banette. Taking in those calcs, Banette should barely live through two flash canons. That's an opportunity to cripple the Luke. If it already killed something (if I don't think the 'mon will be useful anymore) Banette can take a flash canon (not sure about +2) and cripple it. Or, if I think the opponent isn't going to try to keep the Luke alive if I paralyzed it (btw it seems most people expect WoW), I just go for the destiny bond or switch in someone else to actually kill it. Switch out? No problem, I can do the same. Just so you know, my team has never been swept by Mega Luke. Knock off or paralyzing something is always useful. Mind if we just drop this?

[Chocolate Kitty]

How old are you?

Clearly old enough to laugh at terrible lies.

I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge obvious flaws in what you said and frankly I have actual calcs to prove this incorrect.

Talonflame was a safe bet so far, but I wouldn't switch him in after Lucario used a SD/Nasty Plot.

Mandibuzz seems to be safe bet (at least it always worked so far)

Mandibuzz tanks Luke forever if he doesn't have Ice Punch.

Ice punch is 150 power after super effectiveness, CC is 240 after adaptability

so

quick example

+0 jolly lucario vs max defense inpish mandibuzz is almost a 2HKO, slap on an SD on the switch and it's a 63% chance to OHKO, 100% after rocks. If lucario is adament, 100% OHKO after an SD

so laugh at that one too...

Edited January 6, 2014 by Kitty of Time

[Shahrivar]

I wouldn't include Entry Hazards - with Sticky Web (at least I use it) my Whimsicott kills him easily if he uses SD/NP in his first turn.

(Never saw a adamant or modest Lucario, he's way too slow without the speedboost.) But I guess you're right about physical Luke, although I've never seen one oneshotting Mandibuzz. Maybe my opponents were just bad, but Luke never was problem (most were special, I don't see many Att ones nowadays).

I have Sticky Web/Whimsicott/Mandibuzz and Talonflame - I have a lot of problems but Luke isn't one of them.