link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Espinosa]

what's the point in banning ike x oscar

every metagame has its clear way-stronger-than-everything-else combo. you might as well ban hector x lyn in FE7 and the eirika - ephraim - tana triangle in FE8. ban mareeta x galzus in FE5, too. you ban one thing, and something else takes its place. ike x oscar is not super broken.

Ike and Oscar are too tempting not to include in your team, and the rest of the team is usually built upon this main core. Though there are many viable units in the boosters meta, Ike and Oscar not requiring (m-)any boosters makes them appealing choices. For reference, the last 4 PoR teams submitted to me all run both Ikey and his trusted Paladin.

Not letting them support each other allows the rest of the wealth (really) of synergetic and support combos to see light. I'm willing to unban them if we come to discover that removing the Ike x Oscar support opens space for a similarly narrow perspective into team building, such as an alternative Ike x Oscar (whatever it may be).

- If we establish AI for them as attacking the lowest defense unit (which makes sense as I'm pretty sure they go for maximum damage potential without worrying about their lives), then I see no reason why the reinforcements can't all attack the same unit. Shade/Provoke would affect them as well. In terms of attacking order, the units should move after the player who summons them uses their turn.

- Reinforce uses up Tanith's turn in PoR, so it should use up her turn in the Link Arena.

- If we're staying accurate to game mechanics, then yes, you should be able to use it a second time.

- I don't see why the reinforcements couldn't be (even though I don't see much reason why you would choose to attack them).

I'm going to be making a FE9 Averages + Statboosters + Assignable Skills team with Reinforce following these mechanics to see how they turn out. I think that the best way to see what Reinforce brings to the meta is to use it.

- Or you could just choose one unit whom they all try to attack.

- Agreed on this.

- Maybe this is a good idea.

- I could always add their stats to the spoilered sheets in the OP.

Reinforce may not be a bad idea at all tactics-wise. Like a Stealth Rock of sorts, or, like, Sandstorm you can dodge.

I'm also willing to create my own boosters + skills team to take on yours, testing some things that could be potentially game-breaking and some alternative ideas to team building to what I've received in PM from other people. We just need to find a host.

[dondon151]

Ike and Oscar are too tempting not to include in your team, and the rest of the team is usually built upon this main core. Though there are many viable units in the boosters meta, Ike and Oscar not requiring (m-)any boosters makes them appealing choices. For reference, the last 4 PoR teams submitted to me all run both Ikey and his trusted Paladin.

this doesn't refute my argument. (almost?) every FE5 team has had finn, mareeta, and galzus. FE7 has hector and lyn everywhere. FE8 teams usually run eirika/tana or eirika/ephraim or the full triangle. usage is not necessarily representative of unit strength, because a lot of people are running suboptimal teams.

rather than banning ike x oscar, i think this is more suggestive of ike needing to be banned, or ragnell needing to be banned again. oscar is only put on teams to give ike his earth support.

[Ema Skye]

I would support a Ragnell ban. I think it is a simpler ban as opposed to banning Ike x Oscar, but I think something should be done to limit how powerful of a combo this is.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Athena

[Espinosa]

this doesn't refute my argument. (almost?) every FE5 team has had finn, mareeta, and galzus. FE7 has hector and lyn everywhere. FE8 teams usually run eirika/tana or eirika/ephraim or the full triangle. usage is not necessarily representative of unit strength, because a lot of people are running suboptimal teams.

rather than banning ike x oscar, i think this is more suggestive of ike needing to be banned, or ragnell needing to be banned again. oscar is only put on teams to give ike his earth support.

I don't think I'm arguing what you may think I'm arguing. The FE5 viability is an existing problem and makes collective immersion into FE5 unlikely unless some solutions are found. FE7 averages/no-boosters/no US has highly limited potential for team building, as demonstrated in JSND and Quint's mirror game with Lyn/Hector/Rath/Matthew/Guy in both the teams. I'll contest FE8 though - with boosters, more teams are definitely possible, and if the idea behind your team is, for example, to make Gilliam as speedy as possible while wielding Garm and tanking hits, then the big trio will have little place (probably, didn't check support compat) due to Gilliam supporting units outside of that triumvirate.

I simply want to create an environment where many things would function. Besides FE8 with boosters, which seems to be both fun to play and offers good room for variety based on supports (even Knoll with Hoplon is somewhat viable, but his supports suck), FE9 with boosters and custom skills appears to be perfect for this, as it is fun to play and the options for team building are rather diverse.

Creating varied environments for FE5 (not sure if possible) and FE7 is still something to think about; just not an immediate concern as we should handle one thing at a time. The FE8 meta showed to submit to such an approach much faster, that's all.

WRT banning Ike - I think Aether procs are no less cheap than, say, the Hawks' Cancel procs. If we want to eliminate the luck factor out of the metagame, we'll ban a lot of stuff and end up with a bare, boring meta while still falling short. I mean, forged weapons do kinda solve the hit rate issue in themselves.

Banning just the support means that should Oscar show up, it won't be in the role of Ike's +30 avo buddy. Both Ike and Oscar are pretty viable without this support, too. A Paladin with lances and an additional weapon type of choice has all sorts of uses. Ike is the better of the two, certainly, but neither Ragnell nor Aether justify a ban IMO.

[dondon151]

and if the idea behind your team is, for example, to make Gilliam as speedy as possible while wielding Garm and tanking hits, then the big trio will have little place (probably, didn't check support compat) due to Gilliam supporting units outside of that triumvirate.

if this is the idea behind a team, then this team is probably bad. trading a proven hyper-offensive core with a gimmick is just a bad team-building decision.

I simply want to create an environment where many things would function. Besides FE8 with boosters, which seems to be both fun to play and offers good room for variety based on supports (even Knoll with Hoplon is somewhat viable, but his supports suck), FE9 with boosters and custom skills appears to be perfect for this, as it is fun to play and the options for team building are rather diverse.

this is not possible. compare this to pokemon, which has more options to choose from for any given decision, and that metagame has a list of only a handful of usable pokemon. the strongest units will always dominate.

WRT banning Ike - I think Aether procs are no less cheap than, say, the Hawks' Cancel procs. If we want to eliminate the luck factor out of the metagame, we'll ban a lot of stuff and end up with a bare, boring meta while still falling short. I mean, forged weapons do kinda solve the hit rate issue in themselves.

i didn't cite variance at all in my suggestion to ban ike. aether is definitely a small contributor to banning ike because it's just a much better skill than every other mastery, not because it introduces variance.

Banning just the support means that should Oscar show up, it won't be in the role of Ike's +30 avo buddy. Both Ike and Oscar are pretty viable without this support, too. A Paladin with lances and an additional weapon type of choice has all sorts of uses. Ike is the better of the two, certainly, but neither Ragnell nor Aether justify a ban IMO.

oscar is not that good without ike support. why isn't ragnell good enough to justify a ban? it has the power of a forged silver, it counters snipers, and it propels ike to the top echelon of durability, which is further enhanced by no speed deficiency, decent res, no weapon weaknesses, and no possibility of halved damage output against laguzguards. the lower accuracy is somewhat mitigated by the prospect of aether activations.

the issue with FE9 right now isn't that ike x oscar is everywhere. the issue is that ike is a default member of any team. need a 5th team member for a 4-unit core? add ike. if you have ike, is the 4th unit in your core really better than oscar, who is a rather mediocre unit but gives ike +30 avo? if not, then replace him with oscar. ike x oscar is everywhere precisely because ike is too good. if you make ike worse by banning ragnell, then oscar becomes less attractive as a result.

Edited January 23, 2014 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

if this is the idea behind a team, then this team is probably bad. trading a proven hyper-offensive core with a gimmick is just a bad team-building decision.

How proved is this exactly? I think it's too early to claim this. Your hyper-offensive core certainly hesitated to start attacking my diverse evasive core, relying on finisher opportunities arising from my point-blank attacks (I could've attacked Innes to avoid counters, but his +avo supports caused me to hesitate) and Pierce-proccing to break Amelia, crushing the support triangle.

Gilliam is hardly a gimmick, reaching 26 AS with 2 Speedwings and having great tanking capacity. Which unit out of your hyper-offensive core is willing to attack Gilliam? He can take some of them on without fear of punishment, and take another Speedwings to double Ephraim. 28 AS cannot be doubled by anyone at all, 31 being the highest AS in the booster meta (33 AS only possible in max stats).

this is not possible. compare this to pokemon, which has more options to choose from for any given decision, and that metagame has a list of only a handful of usable pokemon. the strongest units will always dominate.

If we play only with -Ike/Oscar/their supporters/probably one Laguz- teams, we'll never even learn how the units rank on a viability tier list. Not to say such teams cannot exhibit any variety (upcoming match between Dio and Refa should highlight some of the creative touches upon the Ike x Oscar core).

oscar is not that good without ike support. why isn't ragnell good enough to justify a ban? it has the power of a forged silver, it counters snipers, and it propels ike to the top echelon of durability, which is further enhanced by no speed deficiency, decent res, no weapon weaknesses, and no possibility of halved damage output against laguzguards. the lower accuracy is somewhat mitigated by the prospect of aether activations.

4 Speedwings in the booster meta do render Ike susceptible to being doubled by the Laguz (and some really nasty ones like Nasir too), should they wish to attack him. The Laguzguard on Ike is by no means mandatory, and can be seen elsewhere on one's team. Effective damage has not yet proved to be a big concern for either mounts or armours, only threatening Laguz and fliers, so the chance of any of these running a LG is more than adequate (Brom/Gatrie/Tauroneo are kinda afraid of Giffca more than anything else if we don't count 28 AS Sages, who may still be less threatening than Giffca).

As for Ragnell... With GBA-style counter implemented, it goes both ways - if Ike wants to attack a Sniper, he should be ready to take a dangerous counter (possibly sleep) or use a silver forge / brave sword, leaving him with 24 AS for the enemy's turn. It has -25 hit compared to silver forges, making it likely to whiff. Aether won't activate any more often than with another weapon (and indeed half as often if compared to Brave Sword attacks).

Furthermore, Aether takes up 20 SP and is incompatible with anything but Miracle, Shade or Provoke. While better than most mastery skills still, Aether can be seen as less satisfactory with Wrath, Resolve and other scrolls now freely available.

the issue with FE9 right now isn't that ike x oscar is everywhere. the issue is that ike is a default member of any team. need a 5th team member for a 4-unit core? add ike. if you have ike, is the 4th unit in your core really better than oscar, who is a rather mediocre unit but gives ike +30 avo? if not, then replace him with oscar. ike x oscar is everywhere precisely because ike is too good. if you make ike worse by banning ragnell, then oscar becomes less attractive as a result.

Assuming Ike x Oscar is banned, Oscar still has some value - namely, compatibility with Tanith (whose Reinforce might develop into something of some importance), Kieran support and the resulting further compatibility with Marcia. And sure enough you can still add Ike to such a team, but no longer do you have to face the BS of +30 avo on two units that drain HP. Oscar x Tanith is far meeker in contrast.

It's still very important though that now 1) you don't have to worry about +30 avo on two HP-draining units, 2) you no longer have to start the team building process by including Ike and Oscar a priori, possibly then building upon that core. A lot of supports could use more love. Brom + Boyd/Neph/Zihark? Yes please. Gatrie + Shinon? Tauroneo + Rolf/Largo? Largo + Mia? Makalov + Astrid? The list goes on and on. 2.5/3) you no longer have to build your team expecting with 95% certainty to try countering other person's Ike x Oscar (by running +hit supports in addition to the usual evasive core).

And sure enough, Ike can still hang out with both Ragnell and Aether. He'd be a Top Tier+ unit together with Tibarn (and Giffca?) I imagine? Whatever is, opportunities really open up. If the support is fair game but Ragnell isn't, I'll still start building every team by including Ike and Oscar regardless, anyway, and Aether is just a more reliable proc skill as you've said.

[dondon151]

How proved is this exactly? I think it's too early to claim this. Your hyper-offensive core certainly hesitated to start attacking my diverse evasive core, relying on finisher opportunities arising from my point-blank attacks (I could've attacked Innes to avoid counters, but his +avo supports caused me to hesitate) and Pierce-proccing to break Amelia, crushing the support triangle.

you don't seem to understand that this is part of the strategy. having 3 very accurate and strong units shifts pressure to the opponent when he is made to take the initiative. and need i remind you that on your trainee team, you also ran tana/ephraim?

Gilliam is hardly a gimmick, reaching 26 AS with 2 Speedwings and having great tanking capacity. Which unit out of your hyper-offensive core is willing to attack Gilliam? He can take some of them on without fear of punishment, and take another Speedwings to double Ephraim. 28 AS cannot be doubled by anyone at all, 31 being the highest AS in the booster meta (33 AS only possible in max stats).

again, you don't understand the strategy. who does gilliam want to attack? if a team is built around a garm user and the garm user dies, the team is screwed.

If we play only with -Ike/Oscar/their supporters/probably one Laguz- teams, we'll never even learn how the units rank on a viability tier list. Not to say such teams cannot exhibit any variety (upcoming match between Dio and Refa should highlight some of the creative touches upon the Ike x Oscar core).

the end goal of all of this is not a tier list. one doesn't make a game just so he can figure out what the tier list is. if this is your goal, then you have no basis to oppose any arbitrary bans that other users suggest.

4 Speedwings in the booster meta do render Ike susceptible to being doubled by the Laguz (and some really nasty ones like Nasir too), should they wish to attack him. The Laguzguard on Ike is by no means mandatory, and can be seen elsewhere on one's team. Effective damage has not yet proved to be a big concern for either mounts or armours, only threatening Laguz and fliers, so the chance of any of these running a LG is more than adequate (Brom/Gatrie/Tauroneo are kinda afraid of Giffca more than anything else if we don't count 28 AS Sages, who may still be less threatening than Giffca).

this metagame is already problematic because a jacked up laguz can simply plow through non-LG units.

As for Ragnell... With GBA-style counter implemented, it goes both ways - if Ike wants to attack a Sniper, he should be ready to take a dangerous counter (possibly sleep) or use a silver forge / brave sword, leaving him with 24 AS for the enemy's turn. It has -25 hit compared to silver forges, making it likely to whiff. Aether won't activate any more often than with another weapon (and indeed half as often if compared to Brave Sword attacks).

people don't put ike on teams because his offense is outstanding. people put ike on teams because his defense is outstanding and he still manages to pose an offensive threat against all possible enemies. ike tends to stay around the longest and is a shoo-in for best endgame unit.

Furthermore, Aether takes up 20 SP and is incompatible with anything but Miracle, Shade or Provoke. While better than most mastery skills still, Aether can be seen as less satisfactory with Wrath, Resolve and other scrolls now freely available.

what an unconvincing argument. you have one wrath and one resolve, and people like to put those on the same unit. obviously when ike is involved, you put aether on ike and wrath/resolve on someone else.

And sure enough, Ike can still hang out with both Ragnell and Aether. He'd be a Top Tier+ unit together with Tibarn (and Giffca?) I imagine? Whatever is, opportunities really open up. If the support is fair game but Ragnell isn't, I'll still start building every team by including Ike and Oscar regardless, anyway, and Aether is just a more reliable proc skill as you've said.

i highly doubt you would build every team with ike and oscar unless it's just to spite me. that's some pretty puerile rhetoric right there, anyway. double earth support is not broken - there are many ways to get around it. snipers with deadeye punch right through the avo bonuses. +hit supports (especially heaven affinity) in combination with silver forges and weapon triangle raise hit rates to better-than-GBA levels. the only reason to ban oscar x ike is because oscar makes ike a defensive behemoth. guess what else makes ike a defensive behemoth?

[Espinosa]

you don't seem to understand that this is part of the strategy. having 3 very accurate and strong units shifts pressure to the opponent when he is made to take the initiative. and need i remind you that on your trainee team, you also ran tana/ephraim?

I did run them, in order to break your triangle while maintaining mine. I also regretted it rather quickly, and would have rather used a unit like Neimi instead, attempting to distribute damage while avoiding counters (the advantage you had by running Innes).

And assume that Innes ends up dying, and the units I have alive are healthy and can be expected to take a round of combat. Gerik doubles Ewan but has hit rate problems. It's your turn. You either have your hyper offensive try to KO something (through Pierce procs or whatever) or try to have Gerik try to hurt something while not getting too hurt himself.

Why is Gilliam's team, also boasting high durability, disadvantaged against this? I can even avoid wasting my Speedwings on my Sniper by fielding Neimi. Moulder, Vanessa and Franz have good synergy here (not sure how good Franz is without the Garm though, probably not so good but he does have the whole triangle open for him), and some of the trainees could be connected by supports through the Neimi -> Amelia link.

again, you don't understand the strategy. who does gilliam want to attack? if a team is built around a garm user and the garm user dies, the team is screwed.

The goal is to distribute damage while taking less of it, and not letting the opponent do the same during their turns. Why is Gilliam attacking something for big damage while absorbing the counter and not getting hurt back valuable? What do you think?

the end goal of all of this is not a tier list. one doesn't make a game just so he can figure out what the tier list is. if this is your goal, then you have no basis to oppose any arbitrary bans that other users suggest.

I said that by limiting ourselves to Ike and Oscar we will not reap everything the metagame has to offer because of the expectation to include them in every single team, or just about so. Tier lists are a means not an end obviously, but we will not go through that phase effectively if we only use the same 4 or so units.

this metagame is already problematic because a jacked up laguz can simply plow through non-LG units.

Jacked up Laguz imply not getting your other units jacked up, and boosters open the door for too many previously unusable units, especially those 4 Speedwings and those robes. We'll test this pretty soon though, yet again (Ena in max stats is almost certainly Uber).

people don't put ike on teams because his offense is outstanding. people put ike on teams because his defense is outstanding and he still manages to pose an offensive threat against all possible enemies. ike tends to stay around the longest and is a shoo-in for best endgame unit.

Nobody wants to touch Ike first because of the possibility that Aether activations kick in, beginning the match with a disadvantage. Part of his defensive prowess does come from the +30 avoid support, and he has 29 defence with Ragnell. a Paladin with 1 or 2 Dracoshields can wield the Vague Katti and threaten with a likely critical hit while sitting on 30 defence (32 with the KW), and, unlike Ike, they are less punishable for changing weapons (and they do have access to the whole weapon triangle, bows and far more powerful laguzslaying weaponry than the Laguzslayer Ike has).

what an unconvincing argument. you have one wrath and one resolve, and people like to put those on the same unit. obviously when ike is involved, you put aether on ike and wrath/resolve on someone else.

I wouldn't recommend putting Wrath/Resolve on the same unit in 100% cases either; far from it.

i highly doubt you would build every team with ike and oscar unless it's just to spite me. that's some pretty puerile rhetoric right there, anyway. double earth support is not broken - there are many ways to get around it. snipers with deadeye punch right through the avo bonuses. +hit supports (especially heaven affinity) in combination with silver forges and weapon triangle raise hit rates to better-than-GBA levels. the only reason to ban oscar x ike is because oscar makes ike a defensive behemoth. guess what else makes ike a defensive behemoth?

Why? I would, if I wanted to consistently win more often than lose (I do experiment a good bit with my teams though).

Snipers wouldn't prioritise Ike and Oscar over others because of Ragnell + possible Wishblade on Oscar, and if Oscar reveals himself to have a 1-range weapon, they would still hesitate due to Oscar's bulk. The punch isn't so "deadly" with a 25 str cap, too. Also remember that both of these drain HP, so you'd rather wait for them to hurt themselves on somebody and then attempt to kill them. Snipers also tend to die after a couple turns.

Oscar can also stack his support bonuses with Kieran for +45 avo, Ike achieving the same with jacked up Soren (whom many hestitate to attack because he has Adept + enough SP for something like Wrath), so even forged will miss, and braves will be almost expected to whiff (indeed, without this support you'll be using braves more freely and that's a very good thing). The Heaven affinity is limited to Lethe, Elincia and Stefan - Lethe is a decent support for Ike when given boosters, but not very good on her own (can double SMs with an investment though).

Anyway, we can argue about this forever. I'd rather have actual games do the talking for me than wasting time indulging in reciprocal sophistry. We play Dio vs. Refa with the Ike x Oscar support being fair game, then we ban it and watch what has changed. None of the changes are irreversible anyway - we banned braves and they came back the next battle. I'm almost 100% certain this is the best change that could possibly be made for this metagame at this point, though. Keeping this particular support is almost taking a step back and narrowing everything down to the same 4-5 units compared to what we had going on a month ago. Making way for boosters and custom skills opened up space for so many fun, previously unviable things, and with your formal logic that doesn't suffice at all you're pushing us back into the cramped room we've been trying to get out, with some unnecessary additional furniture that wasn't there earlier so that we can't even move our limbs around.

[charlie_]

I'd test IkexOscar banned. Custom skill allocation/boosters right?

[Espinosa]

I'd test IkexOscar banned. Custom skill allocation/boosters right?

Yeah... Also, I'm thinking of making short write-ups for all potentially viable characters in this meta. A lot could function with some sort of investment, especially now that we can distribute 4 Speedwings instead of just 3.

It's hardly the absence of the Ike x Oscar support itself that needs to be tested though. It's pretty clear that nothing is lost from the ban, but huge space for team building suddenly opens up. Instead, it seems like the prerequisite for testing of many other things - the potential brokenness of Resolve/Wrath/related combos, Laguz booster stacking, Reinforce adjusment, Shade/Provoke...

[Elieson]

I have a team for that meta, with no ikeXoscar support and all.

How many of each skill are available?

Edited January 23, 2014 by Elieson

[Elieson]

In the op, parity is set to cost 10. It only costs 5

[dondon151]

It's hardly the absence of the Ike x Oscar support itself that needs to be tested though. It's pretty clear that nothing is lost from the ban, but huge space for team building suddenly opens up.

what what what

anytime you ban something, alternative options begin appearing. you have not addressed, or even attempted to address, my assertion that you have no basis for opposing any kind of arbitrary ban. we can have 14 metagames floating around for every FE game if we cared about options for team building.

[dondon151]

different post for an unrelated topic

I'm looking for 2 users who want to do an FE5 match with the following rules:

- Finn, Nanna, Mareeta, Delmud, and Galzus are banned.

- Forseti is banned.

- Assignable skills and stat boosters are not allowed.

PM me or post here if you're interested.

Edited January 23, 2014 by dondon151

[Refa]

Sure, I can do that. Give me some time to make a team, though.

[PKL]

Like dondon told me, if you ban Ike and Oscar from supporting, that just means there will be tantih oscar or some other broken shit. I think full earth is just not good for this, as it makes an already luck-based game, way too luck-based. I suggest limiting EarthxEarth to C. Also, shade/provoke shouldn't even work on players, as it is an AI only thing.

[Elieson]

does shade activate during battle? no. therefore shade isn't a battle skill and nihil doesn't bypass shade.

parity doesn't bypass shade either, by the way. mechanically, there is a distinction between selecting a target for an attack and executing an attack. shade affects an opponent's ability to select a target for an attack, whereas nihil and parity only activate upon executing an attack.

but right now we're playing with such weird shade/provoke mechanics that espinosa can literally do anything on a whim and it'll fly. so i'm not sure why i bother contributing.

Parity

Negates both the player and enemy's support and terrain bonuses, as well as battle Skills

If we consider Shade/Provoke to be battle skills, then Parity negates them.

Saviour

When carrying an unit, Skill and Speed aren't reduced

Provoke

Makes user more likely to be attacked by the enemy

Paragon

User gains double experience

Shade

Makes user less likely to be attacked by the enemy

Doesn't necessarily define them as battle skills, but the skills themselves relate to battle occurance and battle stats. These could be considered Battle Skills. EXP is calculated during at battle, so is Paragon a battle skill? Saviour negates a stat cut due to rescuing. Since the stat reduction is applied in battle, is that a battle skill?

Now skills like

Smite

Increases the effect of the "Shove" command to 2 tiles instead of 1

Celerity

Movement +2

Certainly aren't battle skills.

What about

Nihil

Negates enemy's battle Skills

VS

Parity

Negates both the player and enemy's support and terrain bonuses, as well as battle Skills

If Parity isn't a battle skill, then Nihil doesn't cancel anything. If Nihil isn't a battle skill, then it doesn't cancel out Parity's support bonus negation.

I think we need to decide exactly which skills can be/are considered Battle Skills, and what the alternatives are (Map Skills?). After categorizing what each skill would be classified as, we should be able to proceed from there as to which skills are affected by Nihil/Parity, and how skills work period.

[dondon151]

the answer to the question of what is a battle skill is simple. when the skill activates, is there a sound effect + halo during battle? if yes, then it's a battle skill.

[Elieson]

Like dondon told me, if you ban Ike and Oscar from supporting, that just means there will be tantih oscar or some other broken shit. I think full earth is just not good for this, as it makes an already luck-based game, way too luck-based. I suggest limiting EarthxEarth to C. Also, shade/provoke shouldn't even work on players, as it is an AI only thing.

The reason Oscar X Ike is under question is because

• Ike is a juggernaut who can Aether enemies with some semblance of reliability
• Flaunts a 1~2 range, accurate weapon, that bestows +5 Def
• Isn't doubled by anything except only the most speedy of transformed Laguz
• Is hard to hit reliably with an assumed +30 Avoid
• Oscar is a decent unit who can boast WTControl, and has well rounded stats with no glaring weaknesses

So comparing Oscar X Ike to Oscar X Tanith, you have

• Another lance user, competing for proper weaponry with Oscar in terms of Lances
• Obviously not as tanky, what with significantly reduced HP/Def compared to Ike, as well as a weakness to Bows/Wind magic that needs to be covered, which means:
• Competes for Full Guard, as well as LaguzGuard; compared to foot units that don't care for FG at all
• Stat boosting weaponry limited to +3 Luk via Wishblade
• Mediocre combat with Swords due to:
• Lower strength threshold in general
• A yet-to-be-defined (though, so controversial that it will probably be banned outright) skill
• Oscar still being Oscar

So, Tanith maintains 1~2 range with decently accurate (read, -10 to -20 hit Weaponry), solid speed caps to avoid being doubled, and is harder to hit. She's not doing nearly as much damage in return, and isn't a high-risk target to lead an attack against.

Ike also has a bunch of other supports to boost his avoid with affinities like Dark (Soren), etc.

Tanith has (aside from Oscar) two Fire supports, both with lackluster defensive stats. She shouldn't need to be banned unless she actually acquires a reason to be banned within a specific meta.

If anything ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO BE QUESTIONED, it's the effectiveness of Ike <A> Oscar support itself. Not Ike. Not Oscar. Just the support itself. and personally, I don't think it needs to be banned, I think it could stand to sit in a category of gameplay rulings.

We should probably set up Meta Rulings which include things like: X is banned, X and Y are banned, X, Y and Z are banned.

But, what exactly is bannable from Ike X Oscar

Edited January 23, 2014 by Elieson

[Elieson]

I'd test IkexOscar banned. Custom skill allocation/boosters right?

I'll match you in this.

Espi, you hosting?

[dondon151]

The reason Oscar X Ike is under question is because

• Ike is a juggernaut who can Aether enemies with some semblance of reliability
• Flaunts a 1~2 range, accurate weapon, that bestows +5 Def
• Isn't doubled by anything except only the most speedy of transformed Laguz
• Is hard to hit reliably with an assumed +30 Avoid
• Oscar is a decent unit who can boast WTControl, and has well rounded stats with no glaring weaknesses

So comparing Oscar X Ike to Oscar X Tanith, you have

• Another lance user, competing for proper weaponry with Oscar in terms of Lances
• Obviously not as tanky, what with significantly reduced HP/Def compared to Ike, as well as a weakness to Bows/Wind magic that needs to be covered, which means:
• Competes for Full Guard, as well as LaguzGuard; compared to foot units that don't care for FG at all
• Stat boosting weaponry limited to +3 Luk via Wishblade
• Mediocre combat with Swords due to:
• Lower strength threshold in general
• A yet-to-be-defined (though, so controversial that it will probably be banned outright) skill
• Oscar still being Oscar

the ragnell problem is easily addressed by banning ragnell.

your line of reasoning is that tanith isn't as good as ike, therefore tanith is not a problem. if you banned ragnell on ike (and also allowed stat boosters to compensate for tanith's HP), then they are pretty similar. and oscar is still a problem.

encouraging players to run oscar x tanith might be even more detrimental to the metagame. because tanith claims the sole full guard, that means that the default laguz king is giffca.

Edited January 23, 2014 by dondon151

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'm going to go make an FE9 not Ike team and and quietly ask when I can have an FE6 max match and an FE10 meta, just to really break it.

[Quintessence]

Roy is in a similar position, not as broken as Ike's. Roy is doubled though.

[Refa]

Roy's a lot better in max stats though.

[PKL]

Elie, what is so broken about oscar ike is that you literally have to ignore them until endgame because its too risky to engage them early on. Their offensive presence, as well as the 45 avo and sol aether chance is just THAT good. Think about this: Boyd was using a forge, one of the most accurate things possible, with WTA and he still struggled to hit Oscar, with a forge. When I ran Ike Oscar in that one game, I also felt like they were OP and were doing the work for me. Y'all convinced me it wasnt broken back then though.