What if Fire Emblem brought back fatigue?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Hence the supposed to. In reality, you can just take two strong guys and alternate them between maps to keep fatigue down.

[PKL]

What if Fire Emblem brought it back? My answer is that the next Fire Emblem would be criticized heavily for it by potential buyers and the game would sell poorly. The future of Fire Emblem would suddenly be back to grim.

[Jedi]

What if Fire Emblem brought it back? My answer is that the next Fire Emblem would be criticized heavily for it by potential buyers and the game would sell poorly. The future of Fire Emblem would suddenly be back to grim.

We are doomed to that fate if FE14 is not like FE13 already.

May as well go out with a bang.

[PKL]

We are doomed to that fate if FE14 is not like FE13 already.

May as well go out with a bang.

I don't think a series that could potentially have a lot more games dying due to the re-implementation of a terrible mechanic qualifies as "going out with a bang".

[Baldrick]

I agree. IS should ensure their franchise remains in a healthy state; the best way to do that is to not innovate in any way, for fear of upsetting the new fans gained through Awakening. Furthermore, they should scrap any modes harder than Normal, a new player might select it out of curiosity and so sales for the next game will be worse.

[RJWalker]

To say that fatigue was poorly implemented is being kind.

[Rewjeo]

I don't really see how fatigue was a problem in FE5. Enemies in FE5 were really not the difficult part, so it never screwed up my strategies that I recall, and I thought things like that and capture worked well from a story-gameplay perspective. Recent FEs have gone for difficulty in a very different way, though, and fatigue would be a terrible mechanic within those games.

[Jedi]

To say that fatigue was poorly implemented is being kind.

You really dislike FE5 don't you. First dismount now this.

I don't think a series that could potentially have a lot more games dying due to the re-implementation of a terrible mechanic qualifies as "going out with a bang".

But PKL, you forget this is the game that made FE mainstream. Much like how FF7 did it for Final Fantasy.

Stray from it, like FF did and you split the fanbase in half.

It's a tricky situation

[dondon151]

I don't think a series that could potentially have a lot more games dying due to the re-implementation of a terrible mechanic qualifies as "going out with a bang".

it's not a "terrible" mechanic by any means and i highly doubt that it would have an impact on sales. if you really wanted to, you could limit the mechanic to hard mode and above, and then the casual players won't be complaining (or at least, their complaints will be illegitimate).

there's a lot of misrepresentation in this thread about the fatigue mechanic from players whom i presume have not even played FE5 to a serious extent, or they never bothered to take on the mechanic because it was out of their comfort zone. from my experience, these are the most common complaints that i hear regarding the fatigue mechanic:

1. it prevents the player from always using their favorite or most powerful unit.

please explain how this is a bad thing. by the way, the effect of fatigue is pretty negligible on combat units. most tend to have 30+, 40+ HP and gain only a single point of fatigue per round of combat. one could use them for 5 or more consecutive chapters without having to rest them. fatigue only really hurt staff users in FE5, and you can make a pretty good argument for fatigue being hard on staff users (especially for staves like rescue, warp, sleep, etc.).

2. it could present an "unwinnable" situation when it comes to staff use or unit-specific events.

the classic counterarguments here are to either save an S drink or to plan around it, neither of which are very good arguments. a better idea would simply be, rather than prevent a unit from being deployable altogether, simply make fatigued units unable to fight, use staves, rescue, etc. and maybe halve their stats on top of that. they also do not get rest if deployed when fatigued.

keep in mind that fatigue only featured in one FE game and that there are many ways to improve the mechanic to make it more amenable to players.

3. fatigue is terrible! i hate it! did i say that it was terrible? because it's terrible!

yeah this is not an argument.

for me personally, i never found fatigue difficult to work around. FE5 was supposedly stingy with money and S drinks, but i bought something like 11 S drinks at the chapter 14 shop and didn't even use them all over the rest of the game. and this was with 0% growths and major staff use.

rewjeo brings up a good point regarding the interaction of fatigue with recent difficulty modes. fire emblem doesn't give you as many good lategame units anymore, which makes fatigue very punishing. obviously this is a consideration that needs to be designed around. the other major problem with FE5 fatigue is the chapter 8 transition, where most of the units used in previous chapters have to sit out. this can easily be worked around by units not gaining fatigue until the preparation menu is accessible.

Edited December 15, 2013 by dondon151

[Jedi]

And that ladies and gents was dondon winning once again.

Come back next week to try again.

[Refa]

Yeah, I was going to post some stuff, but dondon basically took the words out of my mouth and then some.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I agree. IS should ensure their franchise remains in a healthy state; the best way to do that is to not innovate in any way, for fear of upsetting the new fans gained through Awakening. Furthermore, they should scrap any modes harder than Normal, a new player might select it out of curiosity and so sales for the next game will be worse.

Nobody said anything of the sort. There's a difference between keeping a certain older mechanic out of a game and making it a clone of the previous game.

Dondon, you make a lot of good points, but remember that with the high enemy density embraced by Awakening, it'll take a lot fewer than five chapters for a unit to get tired out, especially if they're soloing. Something would have to change to prevent that from being a problem.

On the other hand, if Fatigue really has as little of an impact on playing the way you want to play as you say, why include it at all?

[RJWalker]

You really dislike FE5 don't you. First dismount now this.

No, I actuallly really like Thracia 776. But poorly implemented mechanics are poorly implemented mechanics. Just like dismounting.

I wouldn't mind the mechanic returning at all. Now would I mind dismounting returning.

[Jedi]

No, I actuallly really like Thracia 776. But poorly implemented mechanics are poorly implemented mechanics. Just like dismounting.

I wouldn't mind the mechanic returning at all. Now would I mind dismounting returning.

I'm still waiting for a legitimate argument against Dismounting or Fatigue. So far most of what I've seen on both counts is

"They suck they should be burned" no explanations no logic

[Airship Canon]

I'm still waiting for a legitimate argument against Dismounting or Fatigue. So far most of what I've seen on both counts is

"They suck they should be burned" no explanations no logic

Dismounting is screwy and pretty much punishes unit for little reason. It can be made to work with massive changes, but as it stands it's garbage. [Personally, I'd think "dismounting" with a simple 2 mov penalty [alongside removal of the beast weakeness/riding movement] should be a thing.]

Fatigue really is the wrong way to approach the problem of lowmanning. It encourages rotation in some cases, but but as dondon pointed out, it... actually didn't for combat units. It set out to accomplish a goal, and didn't accomplish it. It just served as a rather pointless frustration for the player. A better idea for rotation encouraging is more unit-based events, more things like Awakening's Future Past [didn't level the parents? tough luck.], and generally encouraging "More is better" [increased enemy threat with a different approach to EXP [i've gone and made a topic on it- but I think, while somewhat boring, a good solution would be global exp gains. This way, while it makes growth units easier to work with (just remove the Donnels really. Ests aren't an issue here.) it encourages using more units without pointless penalties]... etc.].

[RJWalker]

I'm still waiting for a legitimate argument against Dismounting or Fatigue. So far most of what I've seen on both counts is

"They suck they should be burned" no explanations no logic

I'm not sure which thread it was but I explained why dismounted units being forced to switch to swords makes no goddamn sense.

Take your snide remarks elsewhere.

[The Void]

Dismounting was good in Thracia 776.

It made foot units more important.

Edited December 15, 2013 by The Void

[RJWalker]

Dismounting was good in Thracia 776.

It made foot units more important.

Dismounted Finn, a knight who's been trained to use lances since he was teen suddenly being unable to use them still makes no sense.

And before anyone brings up 'lances on foot are harder', we've had the knight class since the first damn game. Or are we supposed to believe that these trained knights never trained to use their weapon when not on a horse? I find that insulting.

And it's easy to make foot units important if you are completely unable to use mounted units. That's a cheap and artificial method. Especially when some of your best 'foot' units are just dismounted units. I'd be more impressed if they made foot units important while still being allowed to use mounted units.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[The Void]

Dismounted mounts being locked to swords doesn't make any less sense than riding a horse in castle. Or a teenage boy being able to outfight various professional soldiers. Or some guy from a village being able to fight close to an empire's elite soldiers. Or Guy with capped strength being weighed by a Steel Sword. And so on.

Fire Emblem is a video game series.

Edited December 15, 2013 by The Void

[Baldrick]

Most of the objections to fatigue are due to Thracia's implementation of it. It does not mean the idea is without merit, just that it needs work. I have always thought the fact that a unit with 30 HP can fight indefinitely having started the chapter at 29 fatigue, yet be unable to fight starting at 31 fatigue is silly.

An idea I had is that the for every 10 fatigue a unit acquires, they suffer a small stat penalty that stacks, without any deployment restrictions, and sitting out a chapter drops their fatigue meter by 30. This way, fatigue has a more immediate effect without potentially causing issues with unit-specific events, and you have incentive to rotate your units without your hand being forced.

@Czar

If the reason for not including a certain mechanic is that it might confuse new players, it naturally follows we should not include any new mechanics.

@Ranger Jack

Go learn how to use lances on horseback, then try to apply that technique while on foot.

Though the inconsistency in how mounted classes were affected means dismounting was executed better in MotE than in Thracia.

[RJWalker]

@Ranger Jack

Go learn how to use lances on horseback, then try to apply that technique while on foot.

Though the inconsistency in how mounted classes were affected means dismounting was executed better in MotE than in Thracia.

It's insulting to think that trained lance knights never prepared for the day when they might lose their horses and be forced to fight on foot. Even more insulting is when they can't use swords when mounted. We have both: foot based lance units and horse based sword units. And you want me to believe that professionally trained knights can't do what your average mercenary can?

I guess Finn is just hilariously imcompetent.

Dismounted mounts being locked to swords doesn't make any less sense than riding a horse in castle. Or a teenage boy being able to outfight various professional soldiers. Or some guy from a village being able to fight close to an empire's elite soldiers. Or Guy with capped strength being weighed by a Steel Sword. And so on.

Fire Emblem is a video game series.

"It's just a video game" is such an easy way out. Try harder.

I never said riding a horse in a castle makes sense. But you're selectively dismissing things that don't make sense while accepting other things that don't make sense either.

It's not about what makes more sense. It's about the undeniable fact that dismounted units being hilariously incompetent is just silly.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[The Void]

It's not more silly than any of what I brought up.

[RJWalker]

It's not more silly than any of what I brought up.

Way to miss the point.

Props to you for that. Well done. Good show.

[Baldrick]

You might as well complain that Fin can't use axes. Both infantry and cavalry axe users exist. Random villagers can do it, why can't he?

[The Void]

Fire Emblem is a Greco-Roman to Medieval to Victorian Fantasy Turn Based Tactics series.

It's not a completely accurate simulation of warfare in Greco-Roman, Medieval, and Victorian Europe. Hence the games having dismounted lance wielders only using swords, Archers not having more range than a guy with a Javelin without a Longbow, women riding horses without pants, and so on.