Etrian Odyssey 2 Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

And you're also creating a false dichotomy between me and SB when there is no guarantee at all that one of us is scum. My best guess is still that Fleur was also the mafia's kill target. She was an active player who'd crumbed an investigation role; that's more than enough to draw a kill.

Where did I say that?

[Refa]

Also not intentionally ignoring your other points, I'll reply to them later when I have time to focus on this. Just thought that kind of stood out when I don't remember saying that either you or SB was scum. Like I don't think Mafia and Kopfjager both killed Fleur but yes, there could be a Doctor or some other protective role out there.

[BBM]

Also all of this rolespec is probably making Manix rolling in his grave. Already stated why I found BBM scummy last phase, so I don't feel like my vote is based on rolespec alone and therefore I'm fine with it. I'll need to ISO SB, it is possible that some other Hooker blocked the NK, I guess.

this post. You say that your vote isn't purely for rolespec reasons, which implies it is partially, and then also say that it's possible some other Hooker blocked the kill by targeting SB. This implies you think that the kill was blocked because either SB or I took the kill

[Refa]

I think you took the kill. Yes, it's possible that SB got blocked from taking the kill as well, but I agree with you that those aren't the only possibilities. Sorry if I didn't make that clear before.

[BBM]

Why do you think it's unlikely that the mafia killed Fleur? That's the second time you've said so without a reason behind it. If you were the mafia, who would you have killed?

Elie, scorri, Eclipse, kirsche, Xinny, Wen, Poly, and Shinori were all inactive (lol half the game, also two of them had asked for subs). You, SB, and GP were all wagons on D1. I wasn't a wagon but a few people had stated suspicion of me near the end of the phase (you, Shinori, Elie). Bearclaw had just subbed in. So that leaves like... Fleur and Shin? And Shin hadn't really been super-active either, and Fleur had crumbed an info role.

[MRDRHAWK]

Question to Poly- why did you/Marth want to drive GP with me/SB? Did you want to drive things away from GP or did you want to drive things towards GP from me or SB?

I figured that keeping the NK off SBuh - who's a strong player who only had one vote on him, and therefore could have easily provided an associative read if he were to be targeted with an NK - was a good idea.

No clue why Marth wanted to target you as opposed to SBuh, who I'd suggested him to drive with GP instead of you, since I didn't think you'd be as likely of an NK target.

[BBM]

I was rereading the lurkers because it's easy.

Elieson's content post was kind of shitty. His suspicion about me is like... literally about stuff from RVS. Yeah, I admitted I wagoned Refa for a shitty reason two hours into the game. Totally worth commenting on >60 hours later, right? And what does RD having responded to the case or not have to do with me being allowed to sheep it?

His read on Shin is literally just "wow your townread on BBM is unjustified". Worthy of third scummiest person in the thread! Also, note that RD and I think GP as well also say they're leaning kind of town on me, and Elie doesn't call either of them out for that.

He points out several things about why Refa is scum but then Refa is missing in his scumlist. OK. I also thought Refa was scum but one of the reasons Elie offers was really bad. "Asking people why you're scummy is scummy" isn't something used by people in the year 2014. If people don't elaborate on why they find you scummy, you have to ask them, or you can't defend yourself. It was a shit reason when people used it in 2012 and it's a shit reason now.

The Fleur case is just like... idk. I don't know how to explain it but it just seems really heavily exaggerated. And despite all of the contradictions or whatever that he points out in her posts, there's no indication as to why those contradictions are due to her being scum, or what the scum intent is. As evidenced by her flip, town can also have poor logic at times. And I tried reading between the lines, I really did.

Poly- did you seriously try to redirect a kill towards the claimed info role?

[BBM]

and why the fuck would you change your name to Mango Sentinel seriously

##Vote: Elieson

[MRDRHAWK]

tbf I didn't know she'd claimed Follower

he messaged me for approval before I'd gotten unbanned and had a chance to read the thread

[Shinori]

Rather lynching bbm or sb because they were hooked would be dumb. A legit case would be cool.

Because honestly we had a vig claim saying they were the reason the person died last night.

Which means either scum idled(Lol doubt it.), Scum got blocked, or doctor saved. With how many role blocks we have honestly I feel that one of the roleblocks hit a scum.

I also feel that Green poet is very likely to be scum as well, but I'll have to read a few things and get caught up.

[Wen Yang]

Because honestly we had a vig claim saying they were the reason the person died last night.

Which means either scum idled(Lol doubt it.), Scum got blocked, or doctor saved. With how many role blocks we have honestly I feel that one of the roleblocks hit a scum.

I also feel that Green poet is very likely to be scum as well, but I'll have to read a few things and get caught up.

Or that scum and me aimed for the same person, which is still a possibility we cannot discount entirely.

[Shinori]

Oh yeah there is that.

[Grace]

Eurykins subs in for eclipse, effective immediately.

[Da Bear]

So GP has almost 20 posts this phase and hasn't really said anything about who she thinks is scum and hasn't voted. Pointless posting does not make me feel any better about her.

##Vote: Green Poet.

BBM's Eli case is good, I prefer this atm though.

[Green Poet]

So GP has almost 20 posts this phase and hasn't really said anything about who she thinks is scum and hasn't voted. Pointless posting does not make me feel any better about her.

What? Giving information about my role and night action is pointless?

Voting a claimed informational town role without debunking the claim or offering any sort of argument as to why my claim could be false is inherently scummy, as is the way you've tried to wave off the information I've presented as simply "pointless."

##Vote: bearclaw

[Da Bear]

What? Giving information about my role and night action is pointless?

Voting a claimed informational town role without debunking the claim or offering any sort of argument as to why my claim could be false is inherently scummy, as is the way you've tried to wave off the information I've presented as simply "pointless."

Claiming your action is great, that requires one post. You spent an extra twenty~ doing ????, all we have from your posts is your action and you being confused about roles I guess.

Why should I believe the claim of someone I believe to be scum? Scum!Follower is easily possible, scum!roleblocker is very common. Use your role to defend yourself all you want, I'll vote you for scummy actions anyway.

[MRDRHAWK]

##Vote: GP

That vote is so incredibly bad and reactionary it's almost physically hurting me. Like, do you have any sort of justification for voting Bear aside from the fact that he's voting you and calling you out on a legitimate point?

The claim coasting doesn't help much either, since both aspects of her role have been commonly used as scum roles in the past, much as Bear said. Plus ISO padding, and being truthfully all over the place since before I got suspended and Marth took my spot for a bit.

Like, I don't even know if I can write this off as noob town anymore. In addition, she's given precisely one consistent scumread throughout the game (on Clipsey, who subbed out and caused GP to back off of said read), and that one read was mostly justified by the meta read that "oh, clipsey's a mod, she should be posting more". So, you're basically voting an inactive to push an easy lynch? When you specifically mention Kopf alongside of her, who would likely have been easier to lynch based on inexperience in mafia compared to Clipsey (NOT ACTUALLY SURE IF THIS POINT IS TRUE, IF KOPF'S PLAYED A BUNCH OF MAFIA BEFORE THEN DISREGARD THIS)?

Also, early on D1, you kept pushing Shin as scum based off of... I don't even know what, exactly (I think it was the RVS votes he threw down on me/Refa? Correct me if I'm wrong here). Where'd that read go?

I should be re-reading Shin too to see if this one's a decent read, but for now I'll put my vote here.

I really should talk to Marth about what he got out of the game during D1 after he subbed in for me during my suspension, as well.

[charlie_]

I'd like to ask why as scum I would claim hooked if my factional kill was hooked? It's pretty clear that's a scum hooker now who was on Green and was redirected to me. I doubt two scum would target the same person so Poly is probably town too. If BBM is town then Refa is likely town due to two scum roleblockers being unlikely (but possible). Refa/BBM could be scumbuddies maybe though (or town Refa/scum BBM.)

Now rolespec is over I should probably read people, I guess. Don't support a Green wagon anymore. Something about BBM and scorri kinda bugged me earlier but I need to read into them more closely I guess.

##Unvote

[charlie_]

So I realized that my gutread on BBM was just based on dumb meta/10 where in PToE and Kirby he was really eager to get into 1v1s as town but he kinda shyed away from it here, but it's not really scummy itself so idk. His play does seem okay itself, although something about it seems sort of underwhelming? I guess that's how I'd put it. I want to read this closer later but for now I really should do some work.

eurykins post(inthe)game

[Eurykins]

I'll do what I can to post, SB. I'd just been off the forums for a while, and offered to sub in when I realized this Mafia game needed subs (so trying to work through the 24 pages on little sleep. @_@). Will take me a short bit to compile a post.

[Shin]

Or as previously said, that both scum and me were aiming at Fluer, since she did kinda make a big target out of herself right off the bat... if for differing reasons >_<

It kinda puzzles me that you'd vig Fluer for looking scummy and scum would kill her for looking towny. It pings some sort of bizarre contradiction in my head. There's the possibility of a a doctor existing, but with so many roleblocks and redirects going about, it wouldn't surprise me if scum's kill somehow made it to Fleur. Of course, that's assuming that your vig claim is true!

Other than lots of confusing role spec, I'm disliking the Green/DA BEAR exchange. DA BEAR makes an incredibly poor vote, then Green kneejerks back. I haven't really had much to say on DA BEAR so far, I'm gonna comb through Green's posts to see if they're as empty as DA BEAR has said. Flan (I think it's him?) seems to be pretty on the ball.

From the events of D1, I'm still fairly convinced that Green is scum, there's been too many slips. Imma reread D2 so I can make some sense of the night, but for now;

##Vote: Green Poet

[scorri]

Why would scum roleblock one of their own?

No but really. We have a claimed driving between SB and GP and SB claims blocked. So unless you're saying that Poly is lying about his action, that means that someone tried to hook GP last night. We have one claimed hook and one unclaimed hook. The fact that no one has stepped up to say that they tried to hook GP makes it pretty likely that the remaining hook is a scum hook. It's not 100%, but it's fairly likely. Plus, the lot of you seem to be ignoring the fact that GP's actually claiming safeguard, not hook, which is a much less common scum role. Like... extremely less common since it has the ability to make the scum kill a lot more powerful.

Yes, GP's reaction was kneejerk. But, she's also new. Bear's vote on her was not the best and while it was an OMGUS, I don't think it's enough to warrant voting her since overall her play has been fairly solid.

[Shin]

Yes, GP's reaction was kneejerk. But, she's also new. Bear's vote on her was not the best and while it was an OMGUS, I don't think it's enough to warrant voting her since overall her play has been fairly solid.

My voting basis was mostly D1, where Green essentially tried to wagon me, failed then tried to retract it and pretend nothing happened. I'm all for giving new players a chance, but her play was shaky D1 and there's been no improvement since then.

[charlie_]

Shin: what do you think about Green getting hooked by an unclaimed person?

[Eurykins]

Okaaaaaay... so let's see what exactly I've stumbled into with this game.

[spoiler=Based on D1 Activities:]

Shinori - Lolz, Final Fantasy fanboy was off running Lightning Returns. Not sure if that completely warranted his lack of posting, but lack of content to what he could've been posting yields a null read currently.

Refa - Holy crap the walls. I need to re-read a lot of the earlier posts, but at least the posts themselves have a feel of worth/content to them, so null read until further notice.

*(Edit: Though I remember seeing this post, and wondering about it- you cleared RD as being town at the bottom of the post, but never stuck RD on the list in terms of priorities/reads? I find that a lil' odd.)

Shin - Nothing too much is sticking out to me from when I first read through the thread/first day phase, so null atm.

Poly - His post content stopped by page 6 or so... and not much else? Forgot about the Bluedoom sub. Overall (it feels weird to say this, but...), I had a better feel in terms of Bluedoom's posting/content than I did from Poly's own posts. Either lazy or busy, but null leaning not-so-clean from D1 shinanegans.

Green Poet - Seems to have gotten hung up over Eclipse's lack of activity and the small shreds of content she had prior to her asking for a sub, and aside from the early Shin vote, never moved said vote elsewhere to where it brought meaning to the table. Glimpsing over the posts, I find it a bit intruiging that the vote stayed on someone who was otherwise pretty inactive, as opposed to delving into the content and trying to read out more of the active bunch. Null at best, but seeming a little dirty imo.

SB - Similar to Shin, in which there was nothing overly scummy/odd that stuck out to me during the first read through the thread. Null, leaning town, based on the content/responses (relatively solid/reasonable).

Scorri - in the league of few-posts from the first day phase. Couldn't tell much from that.

BBM - Hmmm... tough one to say. There is a lot of content/posting to be seen, which leads me to believe/read a townish vibe, though this and all of the bolding in it makes my eyes bleed for some reason. x_x Overall, still leaning more town than scum atm.

Kopfjager (...just typing the name...lol...) - Sooooo..... this was his last post of the day phase, drops a vote... and then doesn't reappear 'til D2? (Claiming the vig shot claim no less come the next day phase.) Not sure if it's just me, but that kiiiiiiiiiinda screams lurker/ezpz vote dropping (especially since RD was the one who was shoved out to get lynched D1), without having to worry about last-minute voting contributions. Not liking the feeling- scummy actions are scummy.

Kirsche - in a similar boat to Scorri and the others who kinda fell off the face of the thread in terms of posting content in D1. As a result, keeping it null for now.

Elieson - Augh, so many people in the 'so few posts in D1' group! Seems to have put some effort into the one chunk wall post, so not the worst feeling in the world from him. Null atm.

(If I missed anyone, please let me know, I was trying to run through the thread/ISO's, and trying to catch up with the content ASAP.)

So, as of D1 (of those who survived 'til D2), my priorities sat as such:

Kopasl;dfjasld;fkj (Totally a better spelling of it imo) > Green Poet > Poly > Everyone else.

As of D2 content/D1 claims seen:

(This is the post I'm using as means of overview for what happened during the last night phase, so long as all of the information in said post = correct. Will re-read later to confirm the info.)

Right, ok.

Here's what we have:

Kop claims to have vigged Fleur

GP followed Refa and saw him roleblocking someone

Refa claimed to block BBM which BBM confirmed

SB also claimed blocked and redirected to himself.

Poly/Marth slot claims to have driven SB and GP.

So, what this means is the following:

We have two claimed hooks, one of whom acted last night and one of whom did not (Refa and GP). We have two claimed people who were blocked last night (BBM and SB). This means either GP is lying, or there's a third hook out there. Now, lets look at the situation where GP is lying. To do that, he would have had to target himself, which is a complete waste of an action, and thus not very likely. That means that there's almost certainly a third hook out there (or I suppose Refa and BBM could be scum buddies) and that third hook is likely scum since they targeted a claimed follower.

We have a claimed redirecting action (Poly/Marth) and someone who claims to have been redirected. SB: Did you target GP last night? If so, that means that you probably just got redirected to yourself and then blocked. If not, that means we have a second redirect out there. Null on alignment, but leaning slightly more towards Poly/Marth being town trying to redirect away from claimed follower.

If not for this claim, I would've stuck by the initial gut read from D1 completely. Though I am not completely sold/convinced of Kop being completely clean now for claiming the vig shot, it yields some wiggle room for doubt.

Not quite sure how I'm feeling considering D1/N1/ED2 posts/actions/etc. thus far. It adjusts my priorities slightly, given Kop's claim, but albeit slightly:

Green Poet > Poly > Kopasl;dfjasld;fkj (Totally a better spelling of it imo) > Everyone else.

Will try to get more reads/posts in later- my internet's cut out twice while trying to post this. ;/

##Vote: Green Poet