School of Hard NOCs - Night 6 ends on Mar. 15 at 9:00 PM HST

[Kaoz]

What do you mean, "lately"? He never put effort into it to begin with. If you're claiming Watcher, then yeah, it's pretty possible he's mafia, but in general effort != alignment. With this new information I'd definitely entertain his lynch though.

[Kaoz]

Also who did you watch N2 and what results did you get?

[Prims]

He put some semblance of effort into reading the game D1. Then D2 there was less, then D3 he put Bal at L-1 without commenting on any of the serious events going on or contributing to the song massclaim.

Effort doesn't equal alignment, but lack of effort can be scummy, especially when somebody's effort put into the game drops off over the course of it. Town should be trying to figure shit out right now, it's a critical juncture in the game. Basically, compare FFM's newb play to Randa. I mean, sure, new players can approach the game differently, but FFM barely posts anything resembling a thought process, even when he's been asked to.

Also: just realized your theory sounds even more likely when one consider nobody has claimed hooked at all. I'm pretty sure eclipse tells non-investigative roles if their active ability fails. Whichever player who wasn't tailored could be Godfather, though.

lol if scum really are Haze/SB. Where did SB even go?

[Prims]

Also who did you watch N2 and what results did you get?

I couldn't watch anybody on N2.

[Kaoz]

Did you get anything N1 then? Assuming no because you didn't mention anything, but just to make sure. And you couldn't because it's a non-consecutive Watcher I'm guessing?

[FrostyFireMage]

Uh, my song is "Follow Tomorrow". Don't know how it's relevant since I've already stated my tracker role, but whatever.

[Rajam]

Paper/Bal should still go first. As scum rblocker it means scum would have 2 ways (rblock+nkill) to handle townies and their abilities. We need to remove that. Tailor + right guess is much more unlikely that this scenario between me and Bal being 1vs1 imo.

Actually idk how the Tailor thing could "clear" Bal. The only thing that Tailor does in this scenario is clearing me, since Bal being the hooker sill remains 'cause that's not my role.

[Rajam]

also you bring up a good point about the tailor, but even if bal is town there's no way FFM is too. look at the total fucking non-effort he's been putting into the game lately and how he put bal at l-1 without a care. i kind of want to lynch him over bal now, actually - when you think about it, rajam would've been the perfect tailor target for scum N1

and to nip the whole "BUT RD WAS A NINJA!!!" thing in the bud i'll say that i watched ffm N1 since apparently i didn't crumb that blatantly enough

ok. Since you spitted it out, what was your N1 action? Actually, hold this claim until Paper/Bal claims. If he doesn't and hence we lynch him, claim during Twilight.

And yeah although Tracker and Watcher are not directly in conflict, I highly doubt both are town, and I'd go with FF before Prims all day.

Also, Kaoz can you still vig? We can lynch Paper/Bal now, get rid of the roleblock, and give Kaoz a clear path to vig FF. Thoughts on this?

[Rajam]

^ I meant N2, and I saw now you couldn't watch -_-

[Rajam]

Prims why did you watch FF N1 (results?)? Didn't you think that your role and his were sorta in conflict?

[Rajam]

Prims can you quote your crumbs as well?

[Kaoz]

The point is that I don't think there's another Hooker because Eurykins flipped (Non-consecutive) Hooker and rule 3 states that fake claims wouldn't be needed for this game. So unless you think that non-consecutive Hooker does not counter claim Hooker, there's a contradiction there. The only way I see for this contradiction to occur is that one of you got his by a Tailor.

[Kaoz]

got hit*

[Rajam]

The point is that I don't think there's another Hooker because Eurykins flipped (Non-consecutive) Hooker and rule 3 states that fake claims wouldn't be needed for this game. So unless you think that non-consecutive Hooker does not counter claim Hooker, there's a contradiction there. The only way I see for this contradiction to occur is that one of you got his by a Tailor.

Doesn't tailor mess only with alignments though, and not with mechanical roles?

[Rajam]

Also, is rule #3 meant regarding safe claims? What exactly does rule #3 mean anyways?

[Rajam]

Reading #288 now, and it's confusing me:

After rereading I would lynch any of: FF, Shinori, JB/RD in roughly that order. While a lynch on e.g. JB/RD might give more in the way of associative tells, the behaviour hasn't seemed as questionable, imo. I prefer to vote where I think the scum's more likely, not necessarily whose flip will (possibly) tell the most.

But with the overview out of the way, let's get to some of the meat behind each of the individual cases, shall we?

FF:
Did not like his #151. "What if acting clueless is part of my strategy?" glib reply to the rather serious nature of the prims poke about L-1. ...yeah, not the best approach.

His #153 he calls out SB as being "pretty defensive" in addition to "sowing confusion" with an early joke claim (though he hedges his bets by claiming SB is not "too suspicious". In his #274 he tries to turn this around on JB, claiming JB's suspicion being based purely on FF being "too defensive". If acting defensive was enough for you to get a (slight) scum lean on SB, why would it not be enough for others to get scum-reads on you? Not to mention, this misreps JB's case, which as laid out in his #205 includes beyond the defensive aspect that FF "p much nothing original, blowing up random points" etc.

#173 seems to betray either a clear lack of understanding on why sheeping is undesireable or trying to slide on by with a fast one. Also delicious irony of admitting to sheep in very same post. "Also other players seem to know his play-style so may as well listen to what they have to say."

His #195 is a list post, which has a lot of words in it, but most of them are waffley. The only really solid conclusions in the list were paper leans scum, rajam leans town. maybe a bbm leans town too? It's very noncommital throughout.

While I do appreciate in his #274 he's starting to take a critical look at Prims (and it's probably something I should spend time investigating over night phase) imo it's honestly too late in the day to try to make a move on someone who's been under almost no suspicion throughout, and from whose flip we would gain little, particularly when any scum intent to be found is well hidden.

I feel like FFM could do with somebody typing up a nice tutorial for him, but I'm not inclined to do it in-game where it will clutter things up, and certainly not while he's still alive and I doubt his alignment.



Shinori:
In your #142 for the love of everything, if you're going to tell me to "read the bold" then please erase the formatting of the original post your quoting. Leaving SB's bolded vote in there causes potential confusion, and honestly, I just really hate that whole method of reply. It makes it harder for others to quote you and address what you say in it, and it's more clutter than it's worth. But enough on style. Here is one of your first places where you bring up what becomes a major plank in your case on SB. That he'd "asked Rajam a question" and then didn't follow up on it. That he was around and "doing things" but not actually doing "anything". The criticism resurfaces in your #146 and your #179 and so forth. Let's actually look at this question in detail.

SB's #41 "How is bear preventing the game from advancing when other players can still comment on things he's talked about afterwards?" How is this not a rhetorical question? How does the fact that BBM already answers it in his #43, meaning there's no point to keep harping on Rajam to answer it make it worth continuing to crucify SB for. There's got to be more questionable things SB's done than that to build your entire case out of. I mean, I haven't done the most in depth read of SB yet, but I thought I saw a few other things I wasn't exactly fond of in there. Why are you building a mountain out of this molehill?

Leaves his vote on SB all phase, up until his #239, while spending large chunks of his time investigating other worries like JB/RD, with the occasional potshot at some others (Rajam, BBM, Panda, Prims), but not actually trying to drive anything there. The only new reasons he provides for maintaining a vote on SB are the fact that he didn't like SB defending FFM for being new. Maybe I'm losing some context in focusing on the ISO too much here for the moment, but that doesn't feel the best to me.

Does manage to make some good points, though, like his criticism of Panda in his #232.


JB/RD:
Honestly, there's not as much content here to work on as I would like, but a lot of what there is involves both of them going at each other. In lieu of anything I feel this is kind of a last resort for me at the moment. Also, it's been like 3 hours since I started researching all this, and I really need to get something posted soon.



I'll be continuing to look into these here, and hopefully finish constructing a little better case on one or the other. It really felt like I had a lot more to say than I ended up actually saying, but maybe that's just the nature of D1, and the fact that I don't want to end up repeating too much of what's already been said. The fact that SB has been coming up quite a bit in my Shinori and other research kind of makes me want to take a closer look at him, but I'm already feeling crunched for time.

##Unvote
##Vote: FFM

Bus? What puts me on the fence is the votecount at that time:

The "clipsey needs to go to work" vocals

Paperblade (1) - Prims
BBM (1) - Kaoz
Rajam (3) - JB, bearclaw
SB (1) - Paperblade
JB (3) - Radiant Dragon, Scarlet, BBM
Scarlet (1) - Rajam
Prims (1) - Frosty Fire Mage
Frosty Fire Mage (4) - Haze, Shinori, SB, Eurykins

No Vote - Randa

A bit under 11 hours remaining in D1, as of this post Votals aren't in order, but I'm in a hurry.

(This votecount actually has some mistakes according to me, and it should be:

[4] Fire Flower – Haze, Eurykins, Shatter, Shinori
[3] Shatter – Radiant Dragon, BigPlaysMeteor, Scarlet
[2] Paperblade –Prims, Shark Bait
[2] Rajam – dragonfang13
[1] Shark Bait – Paperblade
[1] BigPlaysMeteor –Kaoz
[1] Scarlet – Rajam
[1] Prims – Fire Flower

Not voting: Randa

Doesn't change the fact that both FF and Shatter were at the top of the votecount though)

---

ok, my confusion here: In that post of Bal, he could've just twisted his priorities and actually said that Shatter was a cool 1st option because of connections, nonetheless he pushes against FF. Very confused here as idk what to make of this. I still want to lynch Balcerzak but I'm not really sure FF would be his scum mate

[Kaoz]

Doesn't tailor mess only with alignments though, and not with mechanical roles?

Not necessarily. As far as I understand it, for us Tailor is just a catch-all term that refers to a role that changes how their target gets displayed to investigation roles, but not necessarily only alliance checks.

Also, is rule #3 meant regarding safe claims? What exactly does rule #3 mean anyways?

Yeah, it means the mafia (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't have any safe claims.

[charlie_]

The thing I find weird though is that there hasn't been a hook announced at all for the entire game, and I don't think anyone has actually claimed a passive role either.

Haze: do you think Kaoz could be antitown solely based on the potential he's an ITP? What is your read on him ignoring this? It sounds kind of lazy imo.

The "fakes won't be needed" rule should be completely ignored. It said this in semi-precious and we had fakeclaims there. Not enough to go around, but they existed.

Going to read Bal in depth now.

[charlie_]

Okay so I'm alright with a Balcerzak lynch. After his early posts which were okay, he sort of drops off of the radar which just reads to me like scum who's happy that they managed to dodge a mislynch and just coasted off of his old reads. JB and RD going at each other isn't an excuse to try and get out of giving reads on them, especially after the former got lynched, so I'm not really happy with that either.

Not voting to keep him from going to L-1, but yeah.

[Prims]

I watched FFM N1 and got no result. Figured he would likely claim blocked and wanted to either catch the roleblocker or catch him in a lie.

I don't see the need to claim anything beyond "I could watch somebody N1"; scum don't need to know my full role.

[Prims]

My crumbs are when I said it's weird nobody targeted FFM N1 like, twice. Once today and once yesterday. Because I knew 100% sure that absolutely 0 people targeted.

[Prims]

cows, if bal/rajam were a probable tailor target then who are the mafias

[Rajam]

Prims, what do you think of lynching Bal and viggin' FF?

[Prims]

would prefer the other way around but if Kaoz has another shot I'm down

I mean I'll be "watching" so it's not like they can roleblock him lol.

[Rajam]

Ah true, forgot about that

Then it's just a matter of preference and both lynches should be ok (FF, Bal). I'd still lynch Bal first if he doesn't come here and claim. Also lynching Bal today guarantees that Kaoz' vig can go through toNight which will saves us a Day Phase.