It's Time To Duel!!!! Mafia [Game Over]

[Vhaltz]

Like I feel like #456 could easily come from scum who just slapped two additional suspects onto their D1 list and called it a day. I don't see evolving thought processes.

Comparing it to #174, I don't see a followup on why Randa is scummy from your point of view? And why is SB suddenly off your list with no followup either? Your thought processes as a whole are a big question mark and it feels like there's a whole chunk of content missing.

[Vhaltz]

Also Randa I see you hanging around the thread rather often due to apparently being in similar timezones. You haven't really said anything ever since you were asked who you thought was scum, step it up and post something man.

[Randa]

I will once I get home. Ive been checking in on my phone so I don't get behind. Will post actual content in 4 hours.

[Zkirsche]

Well you changed your mind on me towards deadline

I never said you were town. I meant that you were less likely to be scum.

hen the Prims suspicion also seemed to stem from him voting Psych over Eury, which would only make sense if you were considering him to be buddies with Eury avoiding lynching her by voting Psych.

"Creating a turbowagon on someone would only make sense if it's to save someone else"

There's also the fact that turbolynches generally leave less associative reads

So how is that not thought through well?

W.r.t Eury maybe I'm biased because I wanted a Eury lynch and didn't even care about lynching Psych but I don't feel like Prims' Psych vote was him giving up on Eury because she wouldn't be lynched, Prims acted like he thought a Psych lynch was preferable.

I don't see evolving thought processes.

Again, nothing so far today really interests me or screams "super scummy" to me. Most of the day has been spent on speculating on the kills and figuring what happened. I'm not going to force myself to evolve when I'm still not happy with my previous suspects.

Your thought processes as a whole are a big question mark and it feels like there's a whole chunk of content missing.

What you described is like 2 lines of me explaining an obvious thought process. I'll explain them to you here:

Randa: "People forgetting one of the main lynch candidates yesterday is suspicious"

SB: "D1 suspicion has been nullified by generally ok content"

Also please spam less. I am the polar opposite of Prims and would much rather see a wall. I would read neither but I'm less likely to get bored when scrolling down a page.

[Elieson]

...:::Seeking Sub:::...

[charlie_]

11/4/1 is pretty standard for 16p games here Vhaltz.

[Green Poet]

This post is really bad. The way he phrases the first part is like bearclaw didn't actually give any reasons for him wanting to lynch Randa, and the second part assuming bear is mafia and fitting actions to it.

I meant to state that he lacked reasons as to why Vhaltz would be a bad lynch. I can see now how my wording could've been confusing, though.

I don't see what's wrong with theorizing what scum would do, and trying to see if people's actions fit them. In a best-case scenario, I could successfully find scum, and at worst, I could be dealing with WIFOM.

Nobody had anything on Baldrick's slot at all, so going into D2 with no info whatsoever on him would be a complete crapshoot.

We had claims, including some very questionable neighborizor claims, that would have been better investigation targets. Garland/Baldrick's inactivity might have made him an ideal vig target, but not much else.

And because it's an "easy claim to fake", it means that it's also a likely possibility to be true.

How so?

You're voting me because you don't like my night action choice and it's not 100% provable? Wtf is that, this is you complaining about my night action choice not a legit reason I'm scummy. Try again and don't trump something up next time.

It's not just that I think Garland wasn't an ideal investigation choice, it's that he's dead, and no one's offered any other investigation results involving his role or his interactions last night. At the time of your post, no one was going to claim to have information about him, and scum could easily claim to have investigated him in order to suggest that their role is town-aligned.

Cases? I haven't got time for that, weekends literally suck

Also it seems like people are voting me for not having the time to do anything and a weak randa case? sorry for having schoolwork I guess, idk how I could possibly defend myself from that.

Your Randa case was the other primary reason for my voting you. I understand and respect that you're busy, but I hadn't known this prior to my vote, and even now it doesn't change the content of your D1 posts.

With that said, I'm not sure if the sub was requested by bearclaw or Shinori, so I'll give things some time and

##Unvote

for now.

[Vhaltz]

@kirsche

Ok I get where you could be coming from with most of your stuff now, but there's one thing left that irked me in the first place, why did you bring up the point about Prims knowing better about turbolynches think when he turbo'd you as town in MLP?

Make it two things, why is a lack of discussion about Randa bound to make him scum? and how come that suspicion is at the same level as Prims and Shinori whom you at least have some sort of a case going on with?

Also I was just talking to Mitsuki about the redirect for the gajillionth time and I finally understand why it's odd. If scum could essentially redirect the vig onto whoever they wanted without having to worry about a doc stopping the kill (since it would've been redirected into Kay) then why did they pick BBM to redirect onto over, say, kirsche or Prims? It's odd considering that BBM had minimal content and was bordering the need for a sub.

[Randa]

Okay I'm just gonna run over the major points of interest right now since the longer I make my drafts the less coherent they became.

Bear: I don't like his choice for Rolespec. Especially considering we had a neighborizer claim from Poly that could've been investigated. Aside from that and poor vote choice I don't see anything wrong.

Green Poet: Gives all these reasons he voted for Bear and then unvotes. I understand that you don't know if he's subbing out or what but its not like we're gonna hammer him anytime soon.

And I can't think of anything else. I don't think Shinori is scum. I'm not sure about Prims. And I doubt Eury is scum. I'm gonna take a nap so I'm off for a bit.

[MRDRHAWK]

I'm not sure where this Prims case came from. I mean, yeah he's usually not this active in scumhunting as he currently seems, but I don't see if that's bad per se. Besides, he recommended the Kay shot to me last night, and I doubt that he'd have done so if he were scum unless he wanted to bus, which I doubt.

Green's all over the map right now. It's not like EO where she was seemingly uncomfortable with her posts... no, this feels a bit different. Her posts still read very awkwardly and with very mediocre reasoning, and then that empty unvote when she seemed to have at least passable reasoning to vote Bear is just... what the hell?

Speaking of Bear, his rolecop scan last night was unusual. Garland's slot didn't have a single post to its name, and yet you chose to scan it... why?

I'm not really understanding the Shinori slot's case, either. Where'd this come from, exactly?

##Vote: GP

This feels best to me right now. I'll look over Shinori's ISO and see if he seems off to me.

[Zkirsche]

@Vhaltz: Prims does it way more as scum though.

Also, I just remember what people were like in inception, where we basically discussed who would be a good mislynch every night. I feel like if Randa was town people would be trying to mislynch him. None of Shinori/Prims/Randa are strong reads, mind.

[Green Poet]

Green's all over the map right now. It's not like EO where she was seemingly uncomfortable with her posts... no, this feels a bit different.

Just the product of my gaining experience, I suppose. I remember this was brought up in EO2 when apparently my posting style began to differ, and that was because Xinnidy had advised me to discontinue being apologetic and such.

Her posts still read very awkwardly and with very mediocre reasoning, and then that empty unvote when she seemed to have at least passable reasoning to vote Bear is just... what the hell?

What would you say is off about my reasoning/posting, exactly? I wasn't targeted by the post restriction card, if that's what you're suggesting.

As for my unvote, I thought I'd made my reason behind it clear. Between my intial vote and unvote, Elieson had announced that a sub was required, and this was likely for either Shinori or bearclaw. On the chance that it was the latter, I would want to hear that sub's thoughts before voting. Again, my unvote from bearclaw has nothing to do with a change in priorities or renege of scumreads.

[scorri]

If you still view bearclaw's slot as scummy, why unvote? There's nothing helpful about unvoting. It just seems like you're giving an excuse to back off. We're not going to hammer any time soon and so there's nothing hurtful about leaving your vote there.

[Prims]

@kirsche: Yeah I waffled on Eury last minute and honestly did think Psych was the better lynch. I'm actually not that confident on Eury, I think she's done some scummy things but her effort level late D1 read as town to me. I also didn't drop Green Poet, she just wouldn't have been lynched that late. If you're going to attack me for lynching somebody last minute then don't attack me for not trying to lynch somebody last minute, what the hell. also why are you ignoring Green Poet entirely

bearclaw is either non-mafia or Baldrick had a rolecop card when they janned him. If bearclaw uses another rolecop card of the same name I'd pretty much buy him as town. I guess it's also possible that scum had a 1-shot rolecop, but it seems more likely to me that Kay was the one who owned two fullcops and was essentially scum's rolefinder.

##Unvote

##Vote: Green Poet

Her vote today didn't satisfy me and after that unvote she looks really finicky about voting in a way town shouldn't be. A sub request isn't going to change bearclaw's alignment so why do you care?

[Prims]

@Vhaltz: Prims does it way more as scum though.

this is factually incorrect btw

[Randa]

Requesting Votals.

[Green Poet]

A sub request isn't going to change bearclaw's alignment so why do you care?

Of course it wouldn't, but it'll change what the slot is willing to say. Just a difference in our policies regarding cases like these, I suppose.

We're not going to hammer any time soon and so there's nothing hurtful about leaving your vote there.

Between Shin and Randa expressing doubt towards him on similar lines of reasoning as myself, I thought it would be best not to keep my own vote on him.

I went and re-counted, and it seems that there's only one vote on bearclaw, Shin's. So, sorry for the lapse of attention on my part.

This could be seen as an appeasement/uncertain vote, but I still think there's a high chance that bear's slot is scum, and do agree now that it's worth keeping the pressure on whomever ends up representing that slot to keep speaking.

##Vote: bearclaw

[Zkirsche]

@Prims: You dropped Eury, not GP (who I didn't ignore, I'm just not finding the scum intent from most of her posts. I'll admit I'm being rather lazy though when I read them) , and I don't see where I implied otherwise so ???

I might be wrong about you and your turbolynches, but it's the impression I got.

[Da Bear]

I have another rolecop card, same name and all that shit.

It's not just that I think Garland wasn't an ideal investigation choice, it's that he's dead, and no one's offered any other investigation results involving his role or his interactions last night. At the time of your post, no one was going to claim to have information about him, and scum could easily claim to have investigated him in order to suggest that their role is town-aligned.

Your Randa case was the other primary reason for my voting you. I understand and respect that you're busy, but I hadn't known this prior to my vote, and even now it doesn't change the content of your D1 posts.

So because it's easy to fake, claiming it is a scummy thing to do, at worst me outing the results are null because scum could do it easily but town could also say that they scanned the jan target. I fail to see how this is even a remotely good part.

Thanks for explaining why it's scummy so that I can answer your point?

Nice job acknowledging your revote was purely an appeasement vote btw, at least you know you're being scummy.

In other news Content should be around tomorrow afternoon because I get back to my comp and can ISO people+read on something that's not a tiny screen.

[Green Poet]

So because it's easy to fake, claiming it is a scummy thing to do, at worst me outing the results are null because scum could do it easily but town could also say that they scanned the jan target. I fail to see how this is even a remotely good part.

I'm not saying that claiming results on Baldrick's slot is inherently scummy, but that it's something scum has far more reason to do than town has reason to actually have investigated. Your result is arguably believable, or not, but it was far from an ideal choice to investigate, as both Poly and Randa have also stated.

Nice job acknowledging your revote was purely an appeasement vote btw, at least you know you're being scummy.

Not sure what sort of response you're expecting from this line. I didn't say it was purely an appeasement vote, or an appeasement vote at all, just that it could be seen as one. If I didn't want to risk being misrepresented that way, and if I was uninterested in trying to find scum, I simply would've kept my vote off you.

[Vhaltz]

The cases on GP over the unvote sound kind of ech so far but I'm not actively against them, GP posted a few things that made me go "???" last phase and I just handwaved them because I thought her deadline posts were mostly alright and Shinori was scummier.

This one most of all

In any case, since a Psych lynch is becoming more and more possible at this point, I'll assist. My reasons for voting him were listed clearly in my last post, and no one's raised any issues regarding them.

##Vote: Psych

Which sounds like scum reviewing whether or not it's safe to vote somewhere than town evaluating whether somebody is more likely to be scum than other candidates. She does actually evaluate why Psych over the others in a different post here but it's far away enough and ambiguous wrt Eury and Poly that it could've been made a posteriori. Her replies to Prims' suspicion and willingness to shove her off a cliff through loverizer also feel like scum caught for the wrong reasons when she complains that she was only being suspected over being part of a wagon.

And your willingness to loverize me with a bomb, primarily just for being part of a wagon, is rather alarming :/

##Unvote

##Vote: Green Poet

Trying to get a full reread and comparison to EO2 now, I had been procrastinating it because Shinori was scummier but if Shinori is literally not playing or getting a sub then I'd rather make my vote more useful atm even if it's a weaker read. Still want a Shinori lynch over anything else.

btw Prims, what do you think about the Kay/GP interaction around here, does it read like Kay is purposefully coaching her scumbuddy in-thread?

Haven't really been talking about my reads in general for the day so here's a brief overview, skip if uninterested.

kirsche is mostly null atm.

I could also use a scorri!scum game if anybody could link one over.

Eury is a big ???, I thought I'd be able to read her easily due to her being a buddy in Healer, I thought she was townie D1 because she had no reason to continue hard defending me after she picked up a wagon for it, but now she has completely disappeared ever since the votes/suspicion on her died off which makes me somewhat worried.

SB should post a bit more, I think he's town and his posts are still good, but a higher activity rate would make me less paranoid that I could be wrong. What do you think about scorri?

Will follow up on the drive thing once I'm sure that everybody has checked in and nobody claimed it, only Shinori and Eury missing iirc

[Vhaltz]

Went back to check on D2 decks and fully read Kay's role mechanics

bearclaw is either non-mafia or Baldrick had a rolecop card when they janned him. If bearclaw uses another rolecop card of the same name I'd pretty much buy him as town. I guess it's also possible that scum had a 1-shot rolecop, but it seems more likely to me that Kay was the one who owned two fullcops and was essentially scum's rolefinder.

I find it pretty unlikely that Kay was the scum's rolefinder since her power would essentially only be useful if roleblocking somebody took priority over giving him two damn fullcop cards. She could switch her hand with somebody else's stopping them from using cards that night, so I figure Kay's hand had more alignment-neutral cards to avoid the hand-switch being an outright scumclaim (maybe the deck checks and hand theme cops). If the setup is really 12/3/1 or 11/4/1 then it's completely justified for the fullcop cards to come from town (and the fullcop cards also gave alignment so scum having them could potentially screw up the ITP big time and heavily cut down on his winning chances)

That said I also don't think it's very likely for bearclaw!scum to out his result as scum rolecop because the whole point of janning somebody is to hide their role to town and all. Could be WIFOM but eh, I think scum is bound to have better cards than a rolecop that doesn't get card info.

[Randa]

But if Bear is scum and Baldrick wasn't vanilla than it makes sense. Especially if the Rolespec wasnt even used in Baldrick.

[charlie_]

I meant to state that he lacked reasons as to why Vhaltz would be a bad lynch. I can see now how my wording could've been confusing, though.

I don't see what's wrong with theorizing what scum would do, and trying to see if people's actions fit them. In a best-case scenario, I could successfully find scum, and at worst, I could be dealing with WIFOM.

It's scummy because you're working from the assumption that bear is scum and then you're trying to justify his actions towards it. You're not looking for scum intent based upon his actions, there's no real thought process there.

We had claims, including some very questionable neighborizor claims, that would have been better investigation targets. Garland/Baldrick's inactivity might have made him an ideal vig target, but not much else.

Are you serious. You think someone is lying about a completely provable role? And his target can be justified by him having a completely different thought process than you. It doesn't make him scum.

How so?

Because There Are Vanillas in the game, and probably a decent amount considering everyone else has powers anyway?

It's not just that I think Garland wasn't an ideal investigation choice, it's that he's dead, and no one's offered any other investigation results involving his role or his interactions last night. At the time of your post, no one was going to claim to have information about him, and scum could easily claim to have investigated him in order to suggest that their role is town-aligned.

Just because nobody else has claimed anything on him, it doesn't mean the info is false. Imagine that bear is town for a second. Would it really be that weird for him to do that? It's not like he's claiming anything that could possibly drive a mislynch anyway, so I don't see why this is definitely a scum move?

Also unvoting because someone who might be bearclaw subbed out is what?

Net is being a fuckup. Going to continue in another post.

[charlie_]

As far as I can tell votals are:

bearclaw (3): scorri, Shin, Green Poet

Green Poet (3): Polydeuces, Prims, Vhaltz

Shinori (1): SB

Eurykins (1): kirsche

I'm pretty sure we have more players than this?