ClevelandSteve Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Like with all topics, we can turn to xkcd for the answer. On girls wanting "bad boys": http://www.xkcd.com/1325/ On the "Friend Zone": https://xkcd.com/513/ These hit kind of close to home because I used to be like this in high school. Luckily, I grew out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 What I'm trying to say is that girls prefer indifferent/aloof guys aka "bad boys" to Mr. Nice Guy because they don't actively try to pursue them and gain their attention, and as such they find them less creepy. They also come across as more confident because they're far less desperate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Lamenting unrequited love is reasonable and all, but complaining about "friendzoned" is not. It implies that you feel that friendship is only second string to a relationship. I'm not sure I understand your use of second string here. But yes, friendship is definitely worse than being in a relationship, especially for someone who suffers from a case of unrequited love. Anyways, we've already had a topic on this and I've said my piece enough. I feel like the oddly negative take on Nice Guys and friendzones is rather odd, since I have honestly never known someone that behaved in the way that's being discussed, and the terms were originally largely used to refer to awkward weak men too desperate to avoid rejection to manage to enter into a relationship. I guess that there are people out there that behave like those mentioned in the topic, but I think more often than not many of these guys are just frustrated at their loneliness and failure, rather than some sort of sociopathic predator as is being implied continuously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) It means that friendship should not be treated as some fucking bullshit consolation prize or something If my friendship means so little then you don't even deserve to be friends with me you go in the curbstomp-zone so many people think romance is the end-all-be-all and utterly devalues friendship when friendship is just as valuable Fuck when I look for friends I don't want to find someone that could be friends with me only to be put into the date-zone or sex-zone if we follow that line of rhetoric If you get rejected, you get rejected. Tank it up and don't call it the friend-zone. Also maybe you don't see them because you aren't on the receiving-end of post-"friendzoned" hostilities Edited May 3, 2014 by Thor Odinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I don't understand what is so difficult to understand that there are people who are interested in a romantic relationship with a specific person, but not a friendly relationship. Friendship can be as valuable to some, more to others, but to say they are equally as valid in every case is presumptuous. It's equally worrying to claim that anyone who feels like they don't want to be friends with someone who doesn't feel the same way they do is mindlessly selfish. And no, I haven't been on the receiving end of post-friendzoned hostilities. If I had that luxury I doubt I would relate very strongly with the typical Nice Guy. Have you considered your experiences are equal but of an opposite nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 It means that friendship should not be treated as some fucking bullshit consolation prize or something If my friendship means so little then you don't even deserve to be friends with me you go in the curbstomp-zone so many people think romance is the end-all-be-all and utterly devalues friendship when friendship is just as valuable I think your missing the point people are trying to make, yes, friendship is improtant and valluable, but if you happen to develop feelings for said person and s/he doesn't feel the same way (rejeced or fear for rejection), it makes it a lot more difficult to be around the person, it doesen't need to be about sex, it could just be that you have strong feelings for the person, and the harder it is to be around the person, the likelier it is to slowly crumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I want a guy that's honest about his motives. If I feel I'm being manipulated, things end right then and there. Learned this one the hard way. That's a huge difference between kind men and Nice Guys. As for absolute doormats. . .I know I can be extremely dominant, and I know that it will lead to an unhealthy relationship; thus, I try to avoid that quality. This doesn't mean that I want a jerk; it means I want a man that knows how to pick his battles. A man that's willing to cater to my every whim is not what I'm looking for. However, that kind of man may be a good fit for another type of girl. As for abuse. . .this one's complicated. Maybe the abused grew up in a household with abuse (which may normalize it in the abused person's mind). Maybe the abused REALLY LIKES the attention from the abuser, no matter how negative. Maybe the abused thinks that they can't get out of the situation (financially, kids, etc.) right now. Maybe the abused has become so intellectually dishonest with themselves that they can't find a reason to leave. Maybe it's something else. It's a messy situation, and one that I wish didn't happen. . .but it does, and it's not just men that do the abusing. I think this is a HUMAN problem, not a gender one, so I don't see how it ties in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 It means that friendship should not be treated as some fucking bullshit consolation prize or something If my friendship means so little then you don't even deserve to be friends with me you go in the curbstomp-zone i think you have to look at it from the guy's point of view. let's say that i make it very clear that i would like to pursue a romantic relationship while you are adamant about keeping it platonic. the problem here is that i can't choose to stop liking you - that's not a switch that one can turn off. so the exhortation to suck it up and take the rejection in stride doesn't really work, try as i might. some men might not care too much about it, but others do, and it's also not something they have much choice over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) Thor did say before in this topic that she sympathizes with unrequited love, though, just less so with calling it the friendzone in a pejorative way. I think part of the dissonance there is that the most common ways people think of the friendzone are fallacious, because, while friendship might not be what the person wants in the relationship, it's still, like. Friendship with a cool person is pretty great, or it ought to be. If the friendship hurts, possibly moreso than its benefits, because unrequited love etc, that's fine and natural enough (as Thor said before), but there's no need to treat the relationship as it is like a punishment or a consolation prize- one still ought to be capable of just looking at the situation honestly, recognizing that what each other wants out of the relationship doesn't match up, breaking contact and moving on, in favor of the long-term interests of both parties. It's the implicit(?) devaluing of non-romantic friendship and this accompanying sense of resentment to the term that's irritating/flawed. Again, the hurt feelings themselves are fine to have. It's just hanging onto it, to the extent of thinking that the other person owes one something, that's less socially defensible in the end. Edited May 3, 2014 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I am really not liking the tone posters like sangyui, thor and loki have taken towards what is in my opinion a stereotype of inxperienced and/or unconfident people who are trying to get people who they like to like them back. It is insulting to them to stereotype them as people that they only or generally want to get in your pants - you are really disconnected from reality if you even dare think that - and it's disgusting to me to know that you apparently think it alright to apparently look down upon them for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) Thor did say before in this topic that she sympathizes with unrequited love, though, just less so with calling it the friendzone in a pejorative way. I think part of the dissonance there is that the most common ways people think of the friendzone are fallacious, because, while friendship might not be what the person wants in the relationship, it's still, like. Friendship with a cool person is pretty great, or it ought to be. If the friendship hurts, possibly moreso than its benefits, because unrequited love etc, that's fine and natural enough (as Thor said before), but there's no need to treat the relationship as it is like a punishment or a consolation prize- one still ought to be capable of just looking at the situation honestly, recognizing that what each other wants out of the relationship doesn't match up, breaking contact and moving on, in favor of the long-term interests of both parties. It's the implicit(?) devaluing of non-romantic friendship and this accompanying sense of resentment to the term that's irritating/flawed. Again, the hurt feelings themselves are fine to have. It's just hanging onto it, to the extent of thinking that the other person owes one something, that's less socially defensible in the end. yes thank you this is what I've been trying to say except I'm really bad at words I do not have a problem with getting hurt by rejection itself. I do not have a problem if you can't even be friends with a person after you get rejected because you're hurt. I have a problem with using the whole "Nice Guy (and in before someone comes and here and be like ~ooooh not all men~, I'm talking only about a subset of guys who do this) gets friendzoned" schtick. Edited May 3, 2014 by Thor Odinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 In my more awkward life then most guys, I've tried to be equally nice to people while also not being a doormat. I have confidence issues, I have issues with socializing in general. Job Corps is finally helping me with that but even then I struggle sometimes still. I have never been in a relationship in my life, I've liked a few number of girls, all whom said I was a nice guy.. buuut, and you know what even though that stung every single time. I stayed friends with all of them except the second time it happened because my best friend at the time (I was 15) asked out the girl I had been talking too a bit that year and knew I was attracted. But that was simply highschool. I had a bit of a flare temper. And I yelled and such. But as a result I curbed my anger and jealousy issues by learning from that mistake. Prayer also helped me a significant amount. Also I don't look for relationships for sex. I eventually do wish to find my one true companion in life, with whom I can share the world with and I hope she shares it with me as well. Sex is something that I personally feel should only be shared between a married couple but that's another can of worms I'm sure doesn't want to be opened here. So I'll leave that there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomX2 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Well, this has been genuinely been enlightening. @Sangyul: dondon's speaking from a social evolution perspective. What would be the best behaviour that people would adopt in the past that would give them the best chances of survival? (S)he's saying it'd have been better for an ancestor to prefer a partner who favours them exclusively over the one who favours everyone, because it confers a larger advantage. More attention and more survival. This, in turn, could lead to an effect today wherein people who are too genuinely nice (to use this thread's definitions, the nice guy instead of the "Nice Guy") are less likely to be seen as relationship partners because they won't give enough exclusive attention. Therefore they're less capable of taking care of their partner, because they use their resources carelessly to help others as well. It could, in theory, be a subconscious turn-off. I'm not sure what the purpose of linking the article was though lol, there's no way anyone is gonna go through that whole article to look for some researcher's perspective and supporting evidence for what we're saying here. Unless you're just introducing the idea that the world acknowledges that evolution can affect mate choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 The whole Nice Guy thing kind of grates on my nerves too, like the other people in this topic. That said, the more I think about it, the more I think that it's behavior based off of naivete and not a sociopathic view on how relationships work. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even realize they were being manipulative. That doesn't mean I think that they'd realize if you pointed it out or even change immediately, but I think it's mainly a form of immaturity and something they might grow out of (mainly with teenagers anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Pff, I never thought guys had much right to complain about anything. They have it so much easier than us girls in relationships, particularly sexual ones. Aside from not having to worry about pregnancy and pain, did you know that guys are also much less likely to get STDs? The reason is that their man part is in and out of the woman's passage, so to speak, and they leave behind their fluids while women pretty much don't leave them anything. Men are also much less likely to find themselves in abusive relationships and more likely to become sex addicts. They also don't typically spend as much time around their crying babies as the mothers do, because the mothers have to breast-feed and such. A lot don't even love women for who they are either. They love them for their bodies. Men most often seem to want big boobs and asses and sex and don't seem to think that you can love a woman without those things. And they leave women like me, who are fairly flat and don't want sex/children, in the dust. I realize not all men are like this, but the sad thing is, the ones that aren't are few and far between. If only I could get with a man what would love me for me and respect my choice not to get pregnant (because pregnancy phobia and baby crying driving me up a wall due to sensitive hearing). I could possibly change my mind about sex one day since there's ways to prevent pregnancy while having a sex life, but as of now, I still decline it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I am really not liking the tone posters like sangyui, thor and loki have taken towards what is in my opinion a stereotype of inxperienced and/or unconfident people who are trying to get people who they like to like them back. It is insulting to them to stereotype them as people that they only or generally want to get in your pants - you are really disconnected from reality if you even dare think that - and it's disgusting to me to know that you apparently think it alright to apparently look down upon them for it. There's a difference between someone who has no confidence and someone who is trying to get in my pants on a pretext. No confidence isn't a quality I admire, but it's not outright dishonest. If I'm being guilt-tripped INTO a relationship (for example), it tells me that I'm better off staying FAR away from him. Trust and respect are important if I'm dating someone! Jedi: I can elaborate on passiveness vs. assertiveness, if you'd like. Feel free to shoot me a PM! Anacybele: Guys who don't want kids exist. Hope you can find one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 eclipse, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by your reaction. Are you making a general feeling reply, are you agreeing with me but with a small addendum, or are you disagreeing with me in the sense that you believe that this particular group of people are actually trying to get sex instead of seeking a connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) There's a difference between Nice Guy and just a guy who has no confidence. The Nice Guy feigns niceness and only goes out of the way to "befriend" a woman because he wants some kind of relationship. When he fails in securing that relationship, he villifies the woman for it. It's okay if you lack confidence. Lacking confidence by itself does not make you into one of those. That does not make you a bad person. It's not okay to villify the woman for ~oh no daring to make her own choices of partners~ and whomever she may choose as her partner consensually for whatever her own reasons are. Except that's what the word "friendzoned" is usually used in context of. It wouldn't be entirely terrible if it doesn't carry the connotations that her friendship is just some shitty consolation prize, and it's ~all her fault~ and ~she's a fucking bitch~, but it does. Women have been fucking murdered because of that. I know how it feels to be rejected by someone who's a friend whom I've developed feelings for. It's hard, but it happens. And I know how much it sucks and it's entirely okay to feel bad. But do I paint them or whomever they like as the villain? No. Sometimes it so much and if you need to distance yourself, that's entirely okay. But don't you dare villify their choices. And that's what the Nice Guy getting friendzoned rhetoric boils down to. For the record, I have nothing against guys who may be unconfident who are upset they are rejected for whatever reasons. I have everything against a small subset of men who are manipulative and blame-shifts when they don't get what they want. Edited May 3, 2014 by Thor Odinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 eclipse, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by your reaction. Are you making a general feeling reply, are you agreeing with me but with a small addendum, or are you disagreeing with me in the sense that you believe that this particular group of people are actually trying to get sex instead of seeking a connection? No confidence/being naive, etc.: Meh. Probably a deal-breaker for me, but it's because of the type of guy I'm looking for. However, a regular friendship is possible. Being "friends" for the purpose of getting into my pants: NO, and I don't like those qualities in any sort of person. Probably not good friend material, either. One may be honest, one is dishonest. I don't like the dishonest ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Anacybele: Guys who don't want kids exist. Hope you can find one! They must be extremely rare then, because I've yet to meet a guy that doesn't want them. And I've met lots of guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I'm not sure what the purpose of linking the article was though lol, there's no way anyone is gonna go through that whole article to look for some researcher's perspective and supporting evidence for what we're saying here. Unless you're just introducing the idea that the world acknowledges that evolution can affect mate choice. because it's interesting and relevant? if people are going to toss around anecdotes like they're evidence, then clearly they have a low bar for evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) baby crying driving me up a wall due to sensitive hearing You don't want to have babies because you don't want to deal with their crying? To be honest, I think you need to be a lot more patient with children to be a suitable parent in the first place. And they leave women like me, who are fairly flat and don't want sex/children, in the dust. It's an evolutionary necessity that men want to have sex and create offspring. Men are just fulfilling their innate needs. Edited May 3, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I just want to say this to you guys/girls who feel hurt about getting friendzoned: consider yourself lucky. I've had most girls give me the cold shoulder and shun me completely after they find out my feelings towards them. That's definitely a lot worse than the girl just wanting to stay friends. I understand that they think a direct rejection, no matter how nicely put, would be painful. But a simple "I'm sorry. I'm not interested in you that way and I want to just stay friends" is a lot less painful than losing a friendship completely and having the person shun you for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I am really not liking the tone posters like sangyui, thor and loki have taken towards what is in my opinion a stereotype of inxperienced and/or unconfident people who are trying to get people who they like to like them back. It is insulting to them to stereotype them as people that they only or generally want to get in your pants - you are really disconnected from reality if you even dare think that - and it's disgusting to me to know that you apparently think it alright to apparently look down upon them for it. How many times do I have to say this before people finally get it THE TYPE OF PEOPLE I AM TALKING ABOUT ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE WHOLLY ENTITLED ASSHOLES WHO FEEL THAT THEY "DESERVE" SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE THEY LIKE THEM. LIKE, THIS IS LITERALLY THEIR ENTIRE DEFINING SHTICK. I DO NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE MERELY INEXPERIENCED WITH LOVE OR UNCONFIDENT. AT LEAST ONE OF MY FRIENDS HERE CAN VOUCH FOR THIS. GET IT? I AM NOT STEREOTYPING ANYTHING. I AM LITERALLY SAYING THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE I DISLIKE ARE PEOPLE WHO ACT AS IF THEY ARE ENTITLED TO A GIRL'S FEELINGS JUST BECAUSE THEY LIKE HER AND ARE NICE TO HER, AND THIS TYPE OF PERSON IS LITERALLY MY DEFINITION OF A "NICE GUY". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 There's a difference between someone who has no confidence and someone who is trying to get in my pants on a pretext. No confidence isn't a quality I admire, but it's not outright dishonest. If I'm being guilt-tripped INTO a relationship (for example), it tells me that I'm better off staying FAR away from him. Trust and respect are important if I'm dating someone! Jedi: I can elaborate on passiveness vs. assertiveness, if you'd like. Feel free to shoot me a PM! I will certainly do that. Going on the confidence thing, I'm alot more confident then I have been in years, yet when it comes to talking to a girl I have an interest in. I tend to seize up and get nervous when I really shoulden't be. It's embarssing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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