What's this thing about "nice guys" and getting frienzoned?

[Roy: Marquess of Pherae]

Sometimes, I see complaints about guys not getting a girl's romantic interest because they're being "too nice", or...something like that. You know, the kind of guy that a girl considers more "like a brother" and stuff like that.

Now, I doubt any person wouldn't appreciate someone that's nice, as a romantic partner. And by "nice", I mean, a person who's...I dunno, kind? Without having to be bound to things that people would normally think of, when they think of a "nice guy" (such as, being softie, spineless, guillable, etc.)?

So yeah, I don't quite understand what's the matter in those cases. It's never happened to me (the times I've liked a girl, I've been neutral/indifferent towards them), but it makes me wonder why being "too nice" would be a reason not to find someone attractive.

If you don't understand what I mean, just ask. I'll try to rephrase it.

To the original question, I think I may know the answer.

I've been in this position before. Over a year infact. I was always there for her. Did everything for her. She always complimented me back and made me feel good about myself, too. I told her how I felt one day and she said there was someone else and I was more like a brother. I remained her friend for the next half year and she came back with the same proposition. We've been together for almost two months now and going strong. The conclusion: It happens. Being too nice is unattractive because it gives you a different image...an image as a friend. That's what the friendzone really is. It's not UNattractive. Its just misleading. What to do?: Don't live without ever trying.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Roy: Marquess of Pherae

[Aizenberg]

i've heard that girls do indeed dig jerks. it's a known scientific fact

[shadowofchaos]

i've heard that girls do indeed dig jerks. it's a known scientific fact

I'm laughing at this statement. There *ARE* girls who do. There are girls who don't.

I just hope you're being sarcastic on the last part.

[Rehab]

I saw exceptions in this very thread. I was trying to explain a trend and nothing more. No offense meant.

You actually can have control over your genitalia and facial structure if you have a lot of money.

It's demeaning because people rarely identify as their body and would like to be valued for who they are instead of what they are. People who liked to be personified instead of objectified find it demeaning when people view them as objects instead of people. People who prefer to be objectified may exist. I have not met any of them.

Would that it were more affordable and more widely accepted.

(not trying to argue anything you said, just saying thoughts)

[MercyWalk]

I saw exceptions in this very thread. I was trying to explain a trend and nothing more. No offense meant.

You actually can have control over your genitalia and facial structure if you have a lot of money.

It's demeaning because people rarely identify as their body and would like to be valued for who they are instead of what they are. People who liked to be personified instead of objectified find it demeaning when people view them as objects instead of people. People who prefer to be objectified may exist. I have not met any of them.

"might" ;)

I'm not trying to argue anything at this point but I'm assuming that, for a short ONS or just fucking for fun, it would usually be objectifying being taken place and mutual objectifying between the two, but anything further than that, even a basic friendship, is when being personified is preferred.

[RandomX2]

i've heard that girls do indeed dig jerks. it's a known scientific fact

We've all taken grade 8 science bro, no need to state the obvious.

For those interested, the precise statistic of digging jerks is 60% of the time every time.

[BANRYU]

friendzoned is something that entitled dickbags came up with anyway

attraction can't be forced, friendship is no less important than a romantic relationship, and if you became friends with a girl JUST to try to date her you're a fucking asshole, faking an entire friendship to get with a girl are you fucking kidding me

Rejection hurts, yes, but if you're actually friends with this girl without the intent of getting in her pants at first and just happen to become attracted to her then your friendship should be more fucking valuable than a relationship anyway

They should be lucky to even be considered in the "friend-zone"

instead of

punch-zone or curbstomp-zone

Also those assholes call themselves "nice guys" to mask the fact that they're fucking useless and have literally nothing to offer and they aren't even actually nice, their niceness is faked and as soon as they're rejected they reveal their true vitriolic misogynistic shitstain self. NOTHING entitles you to a relationship, no matter what you do. Attraction cannot be forced. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Deal with it.

Hallelujah amen and sing it louder, sister.

...I ain't really got much else to say on the topic that anyone else hasn't already said. RedFox made good points for the opposing side of the argument too.

Edited May 5, 2014 by BANRYU

[Phoenix Wright]

the friendzone is not something "entitled dickbags" came up with. it's something that describes feelings that are unrequited. for example, there's some girl that's quite interested in me, but she's not really my type romantically, so i view her as just a cool friend. if she tries to escalate, i'll tell her as much. she didn't do anything wrong, she's not just trying to get some dick (i think), she just feels something towards me that i don't reciprocate. you could say i "friendzoned" her.

the very same thing has happened to me. a lot, actually. it's painful, but it's not unbearable. it's a part of life. most of my blunders come about from not initiating romance soon enough--perhaps this is a problem others have as well?

the whole "nice guy is just a term assholes use to shift the blame" thing going on in this topic is also pretty hilarious. as a few have said, not all "nice guys" are just trying to get in a ladies/another fella's pants. it's very possible that a person doesn't know how to talk to people that he/she has taken interest in--is this a bad thing? should this person be persecuted if the only real way they can seem interesting/desirable is by being incredibly kind? i don't think so. on the other end of the spectrum, there are people who are successful at getting sex and calling it a day--they're called pick-up artists, playas, etc. i don't see much of a problem with what they do, either.

in short, "nice guys," are, generally speaking, just people with poor romantic skills. out of spite or jealousy, some may develop a sense of entitlement or what have you, but the majority aren't like that, and shouldn't be treated like they are.

[Makaze]

the friendzone is not something "entitled dickbags" came up with. it's something that describes feelings that are unrequited. for example, there's some girl that's quite interested in me, but she's not really my type romantically, so i view her as just a cool friend. if she tries to escalate, i'll tell her as much. she didn't do anything wrong, she's not just trying to get some dick (i think), she just feels something towards me that i don't reciprocate. you could say i "friendzoned" her.

the very same thing has happened to me. a lot, actually. it's painful, but it's not unbearable. it's a part of life. most of my blunders come about from not initiating romance soon enough--perhaps this is a problem others have as well?

the whole "nice guy is just a term assholes use to shift the blame" thing going on in this topic is also pretty hilarious. as a few have said, not all "nice guys" are just trying to get in a ladies/another fella's pants. it's very possible that a person doesn't know how to talk to people that he/she has taken interest in--is this a bad thing? should this person be persecuted if the only real way they can seem interesting/desirable is by being incredibly kind? i don't think so. on the other end of the spectrum, there are people who are successful at getting sex and calling it a day--they're called pick-up artists, playas, etc. i don't see much of a problem with what they do, either.

in short, "nice guys," are, generally speaking, just people with poor romantic skills. out of spite or jealousy, some may develop a sense of entitlement or what have you, but the majority aren't like that, and shouldn't be treated like they are.

Under what circumstances would a genuinely nice guy outwardly claim to be a nice guy?

Under what circumstances would they take that so far as to complain that women are too stupid to go for nice guys, in reference to themselves?

[Phoenix Wright]

for the latter, delusion. they'd have to be deluded to say such nonsense.

for the former, i'd say it just takes someone who's insecure with who he/she is to feel the need to claim that he/she is a "nice person," or specifically, for a dude to claim he's a "nice guy."

i think you and i disagree on what the definition of a nice guy is, based off of your previous posts. so, all in all, i don't think we'll find each other to be in any disagreement with regards to the ways some people behave (shallow assholes). i agree with your point, i just don't agree with your defintion of "Nice Guys."

Edited May 5, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[dondon151]

Under what circumstances would a genuinely nice guy outwardly claim to be a nice guy?

this seems like a trivial question. have you never described yourself in a positive manner before?

[Shadow Knight]

To be honest after twenty years of living I'd hav to say that nice guys getting friendzoned is mostly true. Imo its mainly bc most nice guys aren't brave enough to tell girls how they feel, but as far as I've seen its also bc the girls themselves put more stock into looks, status, and money than personality. Example, the first girl I ever liked never gave me the time of day no matter how nice I was to her or whatever. She ended up dating a basketball player for about a week before he tossed her aside. The second time around with a different girl I was less nice and teased her like crazy. We dated for about a year until we both went off to college. Moral of the story is that nice guys don't always get friendzoned but it is extremely rare.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Shadow Knight

[Makaze]

this seems like a trivial question. have you never described yourself in a positive manner before?

I try to avoid doing that because I don't believe in self-diagnosis.

[jiodi]

hehe.

I used to pull the "nice guy" card because I was always generally a doormat for everyone. Then I read an article somewhere that basically said I was gigantic asshole who tried to use friendship as a backdoor into ladies' back doors.

I fall somewhere in the middle on this. Crying about being a nice guy and getting shafted is only gonna give you a perma-v-card and you will grow to resent women in general, which will lead to you becoming an asshole that treats woman like horseshit because you weren't really a nice guy to begin with.

But man, I definitely treated lotsa girls with respect and I always tried to make it a point that I wanted to be friends with a girl before I decided to pursue her. I've always wanted a best friend to go with my significant other because it feels natural. It cost me a lot of potential relationships and I'm cool with that, they woulda been shitty relationships anyway.

Thing is, the guys that piss and moan (like me, back in the day) prove their shittiness by not realizing that being in the "friend-zone" isn't a god damn bad thing.

Women like to have friends that are guys that aren't always trying to get in their pants. They enjoy companionship without being slobbered all over. When you offer up the nice-guy-ness and try to move in as a friend you are opening a door a lot of women will jump at because of this fact. By coming out of nowhere and not stating your intentions up front you're putting unnecessary pressure on the lady of your affections and making them feel terrible for their own emotions.

I lost some good friends that were female by doing this-- without consciously thinking about it as some sort of strategy, mind you-- and still regret it.

anyways, tl'dr; if you've been lamenting your nice-guy-ness always losing out to the bad boys, try and make sure you are being up front with people. When I started to tell a lady I was into that I was into her before showering her with affections it always played itself out quickly, either she'd say nope not okay with dating and we'd just stay friends and I'd either get over it and be friends or cease contact cause I didn't wanna be jealous, or I got married to the woman of my dreams ^_^

[Ansem]

song related

also, it is not the nice guy that finishes last, it is the boring guy. just keep working out until someone loves you.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Richter

[Tryhard]

song related

shit, I was gonna post that.

I'm a jerk, why ain't I rolling in chicks?

Edited May 5, 2014 by Tryhard

[Esau of Isaac]

Under what circumstances would a genuinely nice guy outwardly claim to be a nice guy?

Under what circumstances would they take that so far as to complain that women are too stupid to go for nice guys, in reference to themselves?

Evaluation from third parties is a valid reference for both.

Guys, the term seriously originated quite awhile ago in reference to "nice guys finish last." I don't know how in the world this has apparently evolved to referring to selfish dickbags but it's a pretty popular classic view. I don't think this should need a Wikipedia article, but hey there's a Wikipedia article.

[Rehab]

I personally think the happiest outcomes for both those uses of "nice guy" would see them getting a good airtight sealing in a casket, then being lowered to the ocean floor.

I imagine that this would require the completion of about 3 minor paradigm shifts:

-for guys who're actually nice to become self-aware and considerate enough not to invoke anything of the sort while somehow complaining about the state of their relationships

-for people being assailed by somebody actually doing something like that to become free to simply call them a manipulative doucher

-for people whose definitions of "nice guy" and "guy capable of accomplishing and/or dating things" to cease to exist, whether through changing their minds or dying out

(I worry there may be a potential unfortunate side effect of there simply being a term called "nice guy" with multiple, even contradictory pejorative meanings, that some guy, somewhere who hears the "quote unquote Nice Guys^TM are bad"* thing might at the same time internalize either the idea that "girls like douchebags," or that "guys who are nice are bad")

*and a person who actually fits the bill of a Nice Guy^TMshould change, to be sure

Edited May 6, 2014 by Rehab

[BANRYU]

All the fucking terminology and the stigma surrounding it just confuse this issue and make it way more complicated than it should be.

In my experience, it's pretty simple: girls like guys who are confident in themselves and are legitimately nice people.

The only person I've ever known who fits the cartoony trope of 'girls like bad boys' is my fiancee's aunt, who pretty much straight up has a bad taste in men. She'll stay with guys who rob her blind and dump ones that tend to her needs and treat her well. She's about the only one I've seen, though, and guys who are seeking relationships should definitely not aspire to that.

The simplest and most effective advice I've heard on the subject is be yourself, be CONFIDENT in who you are, and keep yourself available. Do that, and then you just have to be patient until the right person comes along. I realize it's not always that simple, but that's the basic way to address it, I feel.

Edited May 6, 2014 by BANRYU

[Aizenberg]

does this happen with the opposite sex at all? like there's a girl that really likes you but you only see her as a friend or whatever.

[shadowofchaos]

does this happen with the opposite sex at all? like there's a girl that really likes you but you only see her as a friend or whatever.

This just happened to my friend 3 months ago.

He turned her down in that way. They're still just friends.

...please tell me you honestly didn't believe that it doesn't happen to girls.

I mean SURE it's a hell of a lot more frequent to guys than girls, but it's pretty ignorant to assume it never happens to girls.

[Aizenberg]

This just happened to my friend 3 months ago.

He turned her down in that way. They're still just friends.

...please tell me you honestly didn't believe that it doesn't happen to girls.

I mean SURE it's a hell of a lot more frequent to guys than girls, but it's pretty ignorant to assume it never happens to girls.

no. just wondering if it happened to anyone here before

[mewyeon]

I think at least for me, some nice guys that I know, I'm just not attracted to. They're nice and kind and all, but...idk what it is. It's like, they're just nice, and that's all. I still like them as a friend, but well...we're not super good friends. For me, I'd prefer to be really good friends with someone first before I jump into a relationship with them.

[Phoenix Wright]

does this happen with the opposite sex at all? like there's a girl that really likes you but you only see her as a friend or whatever.

of course. read my post here.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[MercyWalk]

does this happen with the opposite sex at all? like there's a girl that really likes you but you only see her as a friend or whatever.

Yes but in my case, this may sound shallow, but she really wasn't that great to look at. Sure she's fun to be around but... that's it. No sexual attraction to her whatsoever.