I still don't get the praise of this game...

[RJWalker]

If it has such a reputation, I'd say it's 1) undeserved, and 2) possibly held by people that don't know any better.

No, I like the story/gameplay balance as-is. There is probably no such option on the table anyway; how much more could they add in the way of gameplay features by firing whatever high school students wrote the support conversations? I expect that it would be minimal.

OK, I'll explain my point in your language. Let's take a random sample:

Mother of god, chewing back vomit here. Somewhere, an actor in a soap opera is slightly uncomfortable without quite knowing why.

Suppose we have a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is the greatest literary masterpiece known to man, and 1 is an erotic Star Trek fanfic with furries and a self-insert. Let's say that The Great Gatsby is an 8, or something. Where does this above passage rate? Or the whole set of conversations? Is it even a three? Seems pretty difficult to have Awakening be "far" worse, without either 1) using non-English gibberish, or 2) a whole lot of Hitler.

I hope that helps you understand what I meant by suggesting a lower limit on how bad something can be. Although I suppose there's always "so bad it's good", like Plan 9. I've never seen a Fire Emblem game reach that lofty perch, though.

Ahh, Hitler. I was wondering when he'd show up.

Anyway, you're the one rating it and compairing it with books. Games don't focus on stories as much as books (duh) and when people say a video game has a good story, they're generally comparing to to the medium. They're especially not comparing with books where story is the only goddamn focus.

FE has generally enjoyable stories that integrate well enough with the gameplay and are well written considering the many limitations of not only the medium but the genre.

[Mbf]

I'll never understand why people keep hating on Awakening. It's as if they can't accept that different people enjoy different things, and that their opinions aren't objective truths.

Personally, I have played most of the games in the series, and yet Awakening still ended up becoming my favorite FE once I played it. Yes, it has flaws. It's very difficult to find a game without, especially when it comes to Fire Emblem. That doesn't stop it from being fun.

All the hate comes from the fact that it's such a casual game, people are probably worried about the fact that there will be more FE games in this mold since it's so popular (I mean, the next game is a crossover?! Really??) It doesn't measure up to earlier titles in the series, and if there are more games like this then FE is headed in the wrong direction. And then, there's all this emphasis on "fun"...whatever happened to challenge being an important part of the game?

(edit) Oops, just realized the conversation has gone in another direction. Still keeping the post tho, adding my two cents.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Mbf

[Baldrick]

OK guys, show's over. Godwin's Law is in effect, y'all can go home now.

[Hamicsat]

All the hate comes from the fact that it's such a casual game, people are probably worried about the fact that there will be more FE games in this mold since it's so popular (I mean, the next game is a crossover?! Really??)

Yes, it's going to be a crossover... with Shin Megami Tensei, one of the most hardcore RPG series even made. As long as Atlus has any influence upon the development (or if the game even comes out), it will definitely not be a "casual game".

More importantly, what's wrong with being casual? Are people upset that Awakening introduced new fans to the franchise? Are they upset that Awakening sold incredibly well and kept the series alive? I simply don't understand this complaint at all.

And then, there's all this emphasis on "fun"...whatever happened to challenge being an important part of the game?

Games are meant to be fun. That's how they're designed. That's why people play them. There have been many games that were challenging without being fun, and they were forgotten instantly; no one wants to beat their heads against a wall for no reason.

Furthermore, I don't think Awakening is pointlessly easy unless you want it to be. If you don't grind and play on a difficulty above Normal, it's quite a challenge for the average player. I'd say the main reason that it's considered so easy is because SF is, for the most part, a gathering place for hardcore players who would consider any game in the series to be easy.

[Interceptor]

Interceptor, your hyperbole is really not helping your position. You had me until you started getting really pretentious about it. :/

So what you're saying, you think FE7 is a four?

Think on this: if you base your feelings towards a given position on the attitude of the speaker, rather than the fundamentals of the argument, of what worth is your allegiance?

What balance? You just bloody said you skip all the optional story content in Awakening [...]

Now that I've already read most of it, I do. Having played through a bunch, the immersion has no value anymore. I only had feels for poor Cordelia the first time.

If Awakening had top notch story and character quality, it seems to me like you still wouldn't really care.

No way to know, since it doesn't seem to have been in any of the other titles, either. Show me a Fire Emblem that isn't some trope-filled romp towards a Big Bad™, and maybe we can find out.

I know what your point was.

Why did you say otherwise, then? Just do the "make a flippant comment and then ignore the issue" thing; I'll get the message.

There can (emphasis on this word) always be something worse.

But "far" worse? How wide do the gaps get once you're down to "minor character development in an SRPG"? I object to the concept.

Anyway, you're the one rating it and compairing it with books. Games don't focus on stories as much as books (duh) and when people say a video game has a good story, they're generally comparing to to the medium. They're especially not comparing with books where story is the only goddamn focus.

It's important to have a proper sense of perspective. I had assumed that people were saying that a given FE's story was good for what you expected of it (i.e.: very little), but then things took a turn for the bizarre, as if the classic support conversations weren't little more than fodder for a Bazooka Joe comic. Arguing about the relative quality of characterization and story in a Fire Emblem game seems incredibly silly.

FE has generally enjoyable stories that integrate well enough with the gameplay and are well written considering the many limitations of not only the medium but the genre.

I agree, and Awakening is perfectly fine in this respect.

And then, there's all this emphasis on "fun"...whatever happened to challenge being an important part of the game?

Eh? Lunatic+ is plenty challenging. Awakening sucks for LTC, but is LTC really that important?

Edited June 8, 2014 by Interceptor

[Phoenix Wright]

ltc is teh only thing that matters in fire emblem, m8

[RJWalker]

I agree, and Awakening is perfectly fine in this respect.

It really isn't. THe story is unenjoyable. I expect competent storytelling from a modern game. Unfortunately, 10-15 year old games still trump it despite the limitations of the systems some of them were on..

[eclipse]

Side note: Presentation counts. The best point in the world can be lost if the response elicits an emotional reaction before a logical one.

[Sunwoo]

My stance on the matter is that you can point out the flaws in Awakening and still enjoy the game. Personally, I think the story had a lot of potential that was wasted, which is disappointing, but it's still fun to play for me and so I like it. Also, I like the older games too. (My only complaint is that after staring at the 3DS XL screen for so long, the DS Lite screen feels small in comparison and my eyes are bad already.) There are some things that I liked better about the older games, but that doesn't necessarily mean Awakening is a terrible shame to franchise.

Also, casual mode and being easy to play on normal isn't a bad thing. A lot of us Fire Emblem veterans think that this series is easy or can be trivialized, but keep in mind that to many non-veterans Fire Emblem is a ​really hard game. I talked to one of my friends who got into FE through Awakening, what he liked the best about it that he didn't about the previous games. For him, casual mode and easier gameplay was the factor that made him like it best. At least 2-3 of my friends who have Awakening (I have four friends with the game last I checked) seemed to struggle with it on the easiest difficulty. It's not necessarily an easy game for everyone else.

tl;dr you can like something and still point out the flaws in it. Just because it didn't meet your standards doesn't mean that other people did not enjoy it. Old games are still good.

[Jotari]

My stance on the matter is that you can point out the flaws in Awakening and still enjoy the game. Personally, I think the story had a lot of potential that was wasted, which is disappointing, but it's still fun to play for me and so I like it. Also, I like the older games too. (My only complaint is that after staring at the 3DS XL screen for so long, the DS Lite screen feels small in comparison and my eyes are bad already.) There are some things that I liked better about the older games, but that doesn't necessarily mean Awakening is a terrible shame to franchise.

Also, casual mode and being easy to play on normal isn't a bad thing. A lot of us Fire Emblem veterans think that this series is easy or can be trivialized, but keep in mind that to many non-veterans Fire Emblem is a ​really hard game. I talked to one of my friends who got into FE through Awakening, what he liked the best about it that he didn't about the previous games. For him, casual mode and easier gameplay was the factor that made him like it best. At least 2-3 of my friends who have Awakening (I have four friends with the game last I checked) seemed to struggle with it on the easiest difficulty. It's not necessarily an easy game for everyone else.

tl;dr you can like something and still point out the flaws in it. Just because it didn't meet your standards doesn't mean that other people did not enjoy it. Old games are still good.

Here Here. Old games have flaws and new games have flaws. So long as you can kill a few hours playing them then where's the harm?

[Interceptor]

It really isn't. THe story is unenjoyable. I expect competent storytelling from a modern game. Unfortunately, 10-15 year old games still trump it despite the limitations of the systems some of them were on..

Enjoyable? That's an even easier bar to clear than "good", because it's not even subjective. Awakening's story is absolutely enjoyable, and we know it because people have enjoyed it. Hell, I usually don't care about this shit and I got a kick out of it on the first playthrough. Who cares if it's nonsense? It's silly fun.

[Dark Sage]

Enjoyable? That's an even easier bar to clear than "good", because it's not even subjective. Awakening's story is absolutely enjoyable, and we know it because people have enjoyed it. Hell, I usually don't care about this shit and I got a kick out of it on the first playthrough. Who cares if it's nonsense? It's silly fun.

Plenty of people have enjoyed Twilight and the Michael Bay Transformers movies too, that doesn't absolve them from being banal insipid pieces of shit.

Gods forbid someone take the good with the bad! HOW DARE THEY!!!

<_< No.

That wasn't my point at all, but I suppose it's within your pedigree to jump to such a conclusion.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Black Frost

[Interceptor]

Plenty of people have enjoyed Twilight and the Michael Bay Transformers movies too, that doesn't absolve them from being banal insipid pieces of shit.

Try to keep up, here. This isn't about quality; he said it was "unenjoyable", which is just objectively false. It's not even a matter of opinion, as plenty of people enjoyed the story.

[The Geek]

Plenty of people have enjoyed Twilight and the Michael Bay Transformers movies too, that doesn't absolve them from being banal insipid pieces of shit.

That wasn't my point at all, but I suppose it's within your pedigree to jump to such a conclusion.

This is what I'd classify as elitism.

[Hamicsat]

Plenty of people have enjoyed Twilight and the Michael Bay Transformers movies too, that doesn't absolve them from being banal insipid pieces of shit.

The Twilight/Transformers comparison has come up twice in this thread, and I really don't think it works well. The Michael Bay Transformers movies are bad movies when you compare them to most other movies; same with the Twilight books when you compare them to most other books. Awakening, when compared to most other games, is an incredible game; it's only when compared to other Fire Emblem games that people consider it sub-par. It is a slightly weak entry (my opinion) in a series of games which are almost universally fantastic (again, my opinion), while those other two are just flat-out bad.

That wasn't my point at all, but I suppose it's within your pedigree to jump to such a conclusion.

People who like/defend Awakening must be racially inferior. Obviously. Opinions? What are those?

EDIT: Sorry, meant to edit my comment rather than post a new one... can someone delete this?
MODEDIT: yes i can m8

MODEDITRESPONSE: Great, thanks

Edited June 9, 2014 by Hamicsat

[Dark Sage]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean that the story is literally unenjoyable in that nobody has enjoyed it but is just using hyperbole. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by what you're doing though; I guess the only people who should be allowed to use hyperbole in such discussions is you, not the filthy plebs who don't like Awakening very much.

This is what I'd classify as elitism.

People who like/defend Awakening must be racially inferior. Obviously. Opinions? What are those?

What the fuck are you going on about? I was talking about that specific user, since most of what she's been doing has been going "lol vocal minority" and shit. I never once implied that everyone who likes Awakening is inferior.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Black Frost

[Loki Laufeyson]

So what you're saying, you think FE7 is a four?

Think on this: if you base your feelings towards a given position on the attitude of the speaker, rather than the fundamentals of the argument, of what worth is your allegiance?

The hell are you even on about? You stopped making sense a long time ago, mate. gg on the Godwinning there.

My stance on the matter is that you can point out the flaws in Awakening and still enjoy the game. Personally, I think the story had a lot of potential that was wasted, which is disappointing, but it's still fun to play for me and so I like it. Also, I like the older games too. (My only complaint is that after staring at the 3DS XL screen for so long, the DS Lite screen feels small in comparison and my eyes are bad already.) There are some things that I liked better about the older games, but that doesn't necessarily mean Awakening is a terrible shame to franchise.

Also, casual mode and being easy to play on normal isn't a bad thing. A lot of us Fire Emblem veterans think that this series is easy or can be trivialized, but keep in mind that to many non-veterans Fire Emblem is a ​really hard game. I talked to one of my friends who got into FE through Awakening, what he liked the best about it that he didn't about the previous games. For him, casual mode and easier gameplay was the factor that made him like it best. At least 2-3 of my friends who have Awakening (I have four friends with the game last I checked) seemed to struggle with it on the easiest difficulty. It's not necessarily an easy game for everyone else.

tl;dr you can like something and still point out the flaws in it. Just because it didn't meet your standards doesn't mean that other people did not enjoy it. Old games are still good.

This.

[Hamicsat]

What the fuck are you going on about? I was talking about that specific user, since most of what she's been doing has been going "lol vocal minority" and shit. I never once implied that everyone who likes Awakening is inferior.

That wasn't my point at all, but I suppose it's within your pedigree to jump to such a conclusion.

"Pedigree" refers to one's ethnic background. To assume that someone disagrees with you due to their ethnicity implies that you think they are racially inferior. Perhaps I misunderstood what you said, or perhaps you have no grasp of what "pedigree" means...

More importantly, Loki is going "lol vocal minority" because that's the proper response; the rabid fanboys and vicious critics of Awakening are the vocal minority, as they are in any other community. Most people don't care enough to take the time out of their day to, let's say, argue for 16 pages about it.

[Jotari]

So many comments have been posted in such a short frame of time. What exactly is the subject of debate right now? Has it gone back to just Awakening in general or are we still on some sort of topic?

[Interceptor]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean that the story is literally unenjoyable in that nobody has enjoyed it [...]

Perhaps we let him speak for himself.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by what you're doing though; I guess the only people who should be allowed to use hyperbole in such discussions is you, not the filthy plebs who don't like Awakening very much.

You guess wrong; nobody is withholding permission. Knock yourself out; people going overboard makes my work easier.

The hell are you even on about?

Wasn't a complicated point: keep your eye on the fundamental argument, not the speaker. Or don't; makes no difference to this poster.

So many comments have been posted in such a short frame of time. What exactly is the subject of debate right now? Has it gone back to just Awakening in general or are we still on some sort of topic?

Near as I can tell, current topic is a discussion of the best way to substitute personal opinion for mass truism without getting called out on it.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Interceptor

[RJWalker]

I was speaking for myself. Awakening's story is so bad that I can't enjoy the game anymore. Pressing start gets boring after a while.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

My stance on the matter is that you can point out the flaws in Awakening and still enjoy the game. Personally, I think the story had a lot of potential that was wasted, which is disappointing, but it's still fun to play for me and so I like it. Also, I like the older games too. (My only complaint is that after staring at the 3DS XL screen for so long, the DS Lite screen feels small in comparison and my eyes are bad already.) There are some things that I liked better about the older games, but that doesn't necessarily mean Awakening is a terrible shame to franchise.

Also, casual mode and being easy to play on normal isn't a bad thing. A lot of us Fire Emblem veterans think that this series is easy or can be trivialized, but keep in mind that to many non-veterans Fire Emblem is a ​really hard game. I talked to one of my friends who got into FE through Awakening, what he liked the best about it that he didn't about the previous games. For him, casual mode and easier gameplay was the factor that made him like it best. At least 2-3 of my friends who have Awakening (I have four friends with the game last I checked) seemed to struggle with it on the easiest difficulty. It's not necessarily an easy game for everyone else.

tl;dr you can like something and still point out the flaws in it. Just because it didn't meet your standards doesn't mean that other people did not enjoy it. Old games are still good.

i don't like awakening, and i agree with this.

I was speaking for myself. Awakening's story is so bad that I can't enjoy the game anymore. Pressing start gets boring after a while.

same here really, in my opinion i can sit threw the other game's storys and still go "alright yeah that makes sense, fair enough" not like gushing over it but it doesn't make me think of contradiction over contradiction or asking "and why is this like that?" and not getting an answer back

Edited June 9, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[eclipse]

Have your opinion: Fine.

When you start shouting down points that may be harmful to your opinion: Meh. Your call, but it doesn't help discussion.

[Constable Reggie]

Think on this: if you base your feelings towards a given position on the attitude of the speaker, rather than the fundamentals of the argument, of what worth is your allegiance?

Jesus christ dude can you get more pretentious

Now that I've already read most of it, I do. Having played through a bunch, the immersion has no value anymore. I only had feels for poor Cordelia the first time.

Not what you said.

In other words, I mash START. I have this thing I do when I want to read a good story: I pick up a book.

No way to know, since it doesn't seem to have been in any of the other titles, either. Show me a Fire Emblem that isn't some trope-filled romp towards a Big Bad™, and maybe we can find out.

Way to dodge my point in order to needlessly and meritlessly bash on the other titles.

Why did you say otherwise, then? Just do the "make a flippant comment and then ignore the issue" thing; I'll get the message.

I challenge you to point out to me where I said "I don't understand what this means", rather than "your post is literally nonsensical and stupid"

But "far" worse? How wide do the gaps get once you're down to "minor character development in an SRPG"? I object to the concept.

Enough that it can't be quantified with a meaningless number rating system.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[shadowofchaos]

So, where's the part where everyone starts calling me a terrible person for loving the crap out of Awakening despite its flaws? I mean crap, I still love the story even if it has so many holes in it that it looks like it's been shot with a machine gun.

...In all seriousness, why does everyone need the feel to point out every time that "Awakening's story is shit". We know that.

So what if I actually enjoy the story? So what if I enjoy the support conversations? So what if they're anime tropes?

For goodness sake, the story was enjoyable enough on my first playthrough.

I cried on Chapter 10's music and what happened.

Does that mean I have terrible taste?

Am I as bad as a twilight fan?

I got my money's worth out of the game.

And you all know I spent more money on this game than all of you combined.