Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Mafia [Game Over]

[Terrador]

Wow, hooooooooly moley, I didn't expect so much overnight activity.

I've gotta shower, eat, etc., but after that I'm gonna plow through ISOs, make a vote-tracking utility, and get a lynch priority going. Not going to bother walling for everyone; just people high on my lynch priority (and those that aren't, but are rather popular on others'). Brevity is the soul of wit, etc. etc. We've all read the Shakespeare.

[Terrador]

Piss in a bucket, I've gotta be rolling out too soon to realistically do this before I go.

After, I promise! I'm alive, I'm watching, I just don't have the time yet!

[Zkirsche]

So it's my birthday don't expect me to do much.

Tbh I probably shouldn't have joined as I'm pretty busy over the next few days.

If I was demotivated, I could have not posted at all and gotten less shit for it.

This is not how people work though. You can post because you think you have to and then the motivation and emotion can get sucked out of you post.

Also this feels very Ragey which happens to me a lot as demotivated scum. It made me do an ISO.

This is a bad post. Doesn't like GP but doesn't vote her based on meta that he doesn't seem fully bought into. Doesn't like Prims' case but doesn't vote him or even comment on if he's scummy or not. In short, very few conclusions, not much of anything new and lacking a conclusion.

#129 is a bad vote that accomplishes nothing and basically dodges reaching any conclusion on the current issue (mainly gp vs Manix).

Admitting that you don't have scumreads doesn't clear you from the sin of not having scumreads. You could've vote GP despite the town meta just for pressure to see how she would react. You can't criticise SB for being annoyed that his reads are weak when yours were so weak that you decided to do nothing at all with them.

So Prims' case was forced but that told you nothing? Really? What about now?

If you really felt that way, you should've left your vote on me considering I was at L-2. Maybe some idiot mayor would've quickhammered me.

This seems incredibly defensive. I understand that it's frustrating to be early wagoned but wagons evolve and I think you know better than thinking it's all over for you.

You actually pull out your finger and make some good cases afterwards though. Specifically Eclipse/Eukyld.

W.r.t. other people, FFM is bad and I don't think you need me reiterating everything again (at least, not for a second time). GP v Manix didn't really give me a lot of reads but I haven't read their posts properly. Eclipse/Euk is worth watching out for for reads Refa said, but Refa is still the scummiest in-thread atm imo.

##Vote: Refa

[Elieson]

Elieson's "Such votes, much fast, very work" Votals

Refa (4): Euklyd, eclipse, Curly Brace, kirsche (L-4)

Prims (2): Polydeuces, Green Poet

Pascal (2): SB., Prims

Euklyd (1): Refa

kirsche (1): Eury

Green Poet (1): BBM

Curly Brace (1): Pascal

Voteless (3): Da Bear, Shinori, Terrador

Day 1 ends in 59 hours and 15 minutes, which is at 2200 GMT-5 on 5/3/14 (11PM EST, 10PM CST on 6/3/14), or if a player reaches the daily hammer requirement of 8 votes before then.

bladescape is now a Sub.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Elieson

[Elieson]

Also, slight rule modification/update/grammatical fix, and several players may have noticed minor edits to their roles. Carry on.

[Shinori]

He said this before admitting that he did send the message though, so it wasn't really clear to me if that was really part of what he wrote.

Yeah, my bad. I couldn't tell it was a joke until Prims posted the paraphrased message containing both the cult leader claim and the request to out scumbuddies.

The way Prims handled admitting that he was the sender still pings me as rather odd, though. He backed off rather quickly, and I don't see why he switched to Refa (guessing it's an RVS vote?) when he disagreed with Manix's choice to claim.

Being able to read others' messages does sound like a scummy role, but it's not as though a standard investigative role would be able to tell that Manix had been scumhunting with it, so he wouldn't be under suspicion even if someone tracked him. It's not considered standard to claim solely because your role sounds scummy, is it?

This post I really didn't like. Like I hated this post and would have voted if I was here at the point int ime.

because it could be that BBM's role is hated because it's a scum role that's too powerful otherwise and needs something to balance it out.

I wouldn't really rolespec stuff like right at the moment. It doesn't really look that good. I kinda took this post as if you were fishing for a viable reason to vote BBM without looking bad.

Well, this is interesting.

I thought I was the handicapped role, but Elie answered some questions and I'm not as sure anymore.

Basically - being killed doesn't affect my capacity to continue furthering the town wincon, but by the same coin, it's close to a NL in practice and that may not be worth the potential loss of information. Whether or not this triggers is conditional as well, and I'm not told what conditions I need to fulfill.

I've never seen a role like this, so I'm asking the more experienced players to advise on how this should be handled, and whether or not offering myself up for an experimental lynch is worth the effective NL.

This claim is really out of place even more so than the handful of other random claims we have had so far this game. Like can we stop that. Thanks.

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

Quit lurking, scum. :V

I really dislike this random vote after he just spouted stuff off making it seemed like he disliked manix. Frankly I'm not liking Refa at the moment.

Man, I forgot what it was like waking up to like 5 pages overnight, thanks Manix. I think we should play with NOC TOWN LEADER as soon as we get a clear too.

SUPERHATED is probably our Doctor and it's just making it much easier for us to lynch it, so BBM is probably town. So is Manix for his claim and general playstyle.

I'm not sure that confident that GP is scum, honestly. A lot of her pushes seem based on kinda sketchy logic, but it that isn't really much of a tell for her and I'm not so sure she'd be this loud while fighting a losing battle as scum, rather than backing off a bit or asking buddies for help with what to say.

Don't really like Refa's posts, they amount to a couple of questions after quotes and the only thing he really pursues in that post is from RVS which is kinda eh too, and his jokevote on me almost feels like he's trying to hide his lack of opinions.

##Vote: Refa

My reads all feel really weak considering the amount of words that happened tbh.

I dislike Refa but I feel like this post really is weak. He waffles on GP, spouts random rolespec about hated role(Most likely a joke but still), then he votes Refa without commenting on the other players.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

I'm beginning to think the exchange between Manix/Prims might be busing. Manix claiming part of his role may be an attempt to appear to be the most townie out of the two. Once GP got involved, they perhaps thought they could get her lynched.

Manix was the one who started the vote between the two so that's where my vote goes.

Also the whole "Refa is being half-assed because he keeps on rolling scum" meta sounds like grasping for straws.

Please no. No bussing theory. They would have zero reason to bus at this point in time in the game.

Bearclaw, Poly, Terrador, Shinori, Kirsche and Eury have barely posted if at all, so there's precious little to go on for them.

GP I've covered and BBM/Euk/Clipsey haven't done anything overtly scummy that requires mention.

I'm town, so that leaves Refa, Manix, Prims and SB. Prims' reason for voting Manix - "He's high-profile and posts a lot and likely to actually say something." - is a pretty flimsy reason, but it's so flimsy that it sounds like a joke. It feels like Manix voted him in retaliation and then jumped on the chance to vote GP afterwards in a possible attempt to avoid attention. If only one of them is scum I feel like it's more likely to be Manix.

Still waiting for more from Refa. Keeping his vote on SB after SB voted him feels a lot like OMGUS (on both sides, actually) and it feels like he's under pressure. SB is suspicious for the OMGUS-seeming response to Refa's vote.

This post is just awful. I dislke this. Blah.

Okay now that most reread(for the most part) is done. I skimmed slightly over the last 2 pages or so. LETS GET THIS STARTED.

##Vote: SB

SB > FFM > Refa at the moment I'll post more to go over this in a bit.

[charlie_]

My GP comment was less of a waffle and more of a "I disagree that they've been scummy", and I DID have opinions on other people there, even if they aren't scumreads.

[Green Poet]

Here now, lemme read everything and take a look at this Refa wagon.

[Eurykins]

--Will have a post out later tonight. Started making one, but unable to finish them in lieu of errands and IRL situations. ;/--

[eclipse]

Now, where was I before I went to bed?

This came right after I went to bed. Rather than do anything about Prims/Manix (which was the main event), I saw some comments with no reads, followed by a tangent to SB. That looks like you're trying to stay out of the spotlight. Also, if you hadn't posted, I'd still have you up there in scum reads along with "oh and Refa should be relevant as opposed to looking at the thread and leaving".

Meh. Don't really care about how anyone reads GP unless she becomes the sole wagon of D1 (which means that we'd be in danger of NLing on D1 with no one else, and that's lame).

And why can't any of the inactives be scum? Refa had posted quite a bit at this point. . .and you want more? Also, where's the answer to my questions?

What if GP is scum? What then?

This sounds like scum-levels of paranoia. If some role or other incriminates GP, we'll deal with it then. Right now, the only way we're going to verify that is to lynch her, which in turn will trigger her role, which she's implied might as well be a NL.

Then I'm wrong and that sucks, I'm don't feel like GP is scummy right now.

. . .this is the first thing I don't like from SB (and not 'cause of grammar). It feels like a halfhearted response, which is completely unlike the SB I know and heart.

Other reads: Refa feels scummy, and there's also a tone component; he reads as kinda passive aggressive I guess? Not sure how to describe it. At this point I really don't know about anything beyond what I've already said, and it was a mistake to try to mafia at 3+ AM. I tried re-reading things and I'm not really retaining anything or really concentrating well at all. I'll probably just be re-reading everything tomorrow.

Going to bed.

I pasted that into the address bar. Go me. ;/

I'm reading frustrated (otherwise known as "null"), which is why I'm ignoring his tone and going after content.

And now, time to pick on Refa's reads. I know being the center of everything is headache-inducing, but I'm pretty sure Elieson would throw a fit if I let someone off because they sound annoyed.

FFM - I got "shitty rolespec" out of the hated thing. What bugs me about FFM is how my questions regarding "explain your thought process" are being ignored.

SB - Scummiest thing I have on him is a sorta-weird passive post, and that's it. I don't see the rest of this.

ME - Hey, have some reference. I explained why I didn't like FFM at that point. Didn't see anyone else as worth a vote at that point. What I'm rather surprised you didn't point out was how Yours Truly and SB were posting the exact same things to FFM about a minute apart.

GP - That's a lot of "forced" you have in there.

Euklyd - It feels like you're finding excuses to call people scummy. He posted a lot of that earlier, so why is it a huge problem only now?

Prims - Why does Prims get a neat little gold star when Manix is left out, despite the fact that you had earlier issues with one of the latter's vote and claim?

Terrador for "least number of non-content posts for clipsey to poke at". Like, in the nearly two hours that you had between those two, you had nothing to say?

. . .and I think that's it. Would like Shinori's explanation that he's promised.

kirsche is scum if he celebrates his birthday by playing drunk mafia, along with everyone else who claims to have a productive life outside of SF

Fine with leaving my vote where it is. Though Refa is finally responding to the center of attention (in this case, himself), his recent content has done nothing to improve my read on him. FFM not explaining his thought process is also bad, and I won't object if he's lynched. Everyone else either needs to post more or isn't worth my vote ATM.

[charlie_]

Would still like Refa to respond to the second part of this post.

[BBM]

ugh GP's claim

If somebody else has a handicap mentioned in their flavour they should contact me or I'm going to assume it is GP even if she's not sure.

##Unvote, ##Vote: FFM

His play is scummy as fuck. He began by trying to spin a case on me for what looks like the sake of spinning a case, because a more relevant reason for suspecting my claim would just be that I'm faking Hated so that I don't get votes on me. People have already gone over the Manix/Prims thing, and his SB/Refa thing doesn't make sense either because he's saying they're both suspicious for OMGUS votes against each other? That's just like more bussing theories for no reason, and the abrupt change on Refa from "not too scummy" to "kind of agitated" to "wow so OMGUS" seems fabricated.

Don't really like Shinori's last post. His SB vote kind of sucks and is based off SB's first post in the game and ignores everything else SB has posted- ironic because he accuses SB of ignoring other players even though the only person SB doesn't really talk about there who'd posted a lot was Prims. The "random rolespec" is half-joke and half the basis of a townread on me so it's not really random at all. He also says one of GP's posts was scummy enough that he would have voted there but then doesn't even have her in his lynch priority? Why? Also nothing about Refa other than a mention while speaking about SB, but Refa still

makes it in that list. Really it looks like he should be voting FFM but he's voting for SB for dumb reasons.

tbh I don't get why Refa has so many votes on him. Will reread in a bit.

[Green Poet]

and what's the likelihood that Refa would roll scum again? I want to give him the benefit of a doubt for now, especially since it looks like there's a wagon forming

Refa rolling scum in this game is independent of his tendency of rolling scum in previous games. Like I've played seven or eight games and only rolled scum once, but that isn't indicative of me being likelier to roll town in this game. You should look at Refa and not let the assumption that "he's not statistically likely to be scum again" influence your judgment.

and it also seems that everyone is voting him (Refa) because of luck-based meta which I'm not a fan of

No, I don't think anyone else actually referenced Refa's luck/chance.

That being said:

Eli may also have rigged scum!Refa because he hates him or something too, so there's that.

That is a joke though, right?

SUPERHATED is probably our Doctor and it's just making it much easier for us to lynch it, so BBM is probably town. So is Manix for his claim and general playstyle.

I get that BBM is probably town because superhated mafia is pretty nerfed, but why is Manix's claim townie-sounding? It looks understandable if he's town since a suspicious-looking role like that should probably be outed early on, but since there isn't a way to verify or investigate how he's used it, it's an easy enough claim for scum to make, fake or not.

Like I don't think Manix is likely to be scum because of what he's claimed, but I don't think that it's in any way a townie claim.

You (Refa) asking questions but not pursuing anything looks terrible, especially since I don't see your questions to me, Manix or GP leading anywhere when you don't have real opinions on any of us. Why was a SB prodvote better than putting your money where your mouth was and voting one of the people you questioned as pressure?

I'm willing to vote FFM for tagging along without doing anything too since he's evidently reading closely enough to ask for clarification.

eclipse: why point out the worst things Manix and I did if you don't actually find them scummy?

Euklyd: is Refa's SB vote a "scummy-weird"? What bugs you about it in particular? I think you're looking at everything on a surface level instead of trying to be inquisitive. I don't like how frequently your post states one thing only for you to say you just don't know.

I feel as though this is calling people out for not voting those that they're talking about? It's not so much "they're not committing to their reads" as it is "they're not voting people they've quoted" and I think that's an overly hasty approach to hunting and you're not commenting on the reads themselves.

If I have reason to think someone is town, I clear them super quickly.

and

The first sentence is responding to you saying "oh SB wouldn't clear people this quickly as town" which was blatantly wrong.

Self-meta isn't particularly convincing. I do remember when SB made a comment in P3M about how I made a townslip D1, though no one (myself included) really understood it, so I can see that it may be a real tendency for SB. But it feels like SB's emphasizing this habit to argue why he had more null/townreads, and I don't like how it's basically all just self-meta.

I'm beginning to think the exchange between Manix/Prims might be busing. Manix claiming part of his role may be an attempt to appear to be the most townie out of the two. Once GP got involved, they perhaps thought they could get her lynched.

For what reason would one bus their buddy ED1, though?

Bearclaw, Poly, Terrador, Shinori, Kirsche and Eury have barely posted if at all, so there's precious little to go on for them.

GP I've covered and BBM/Euk/Clipsey haven't done anything overtly scummy that requires mention.

I'm town, so that leaves Refa, Manix, Prims and SB.

Sounds unnatural to say this since you're looking for who has content for you to comment on, not who the scumteam can be.

What if GP is scum? What then?

Reads like it's trying to put responsibility of SB being correct about my alignment. Like, if I'm scum and SB guessed wrong, then SB's simply wrong. . . what else would there be to say?

Right now he's not leading town and he hasn't claimed mayor or something, so why do you speak as though you're questioning SB's judgment?

Getting odd vibes from Euklyd because of how frequently I'm noticing him going "but yeah I also have weak reads because it's D1" or "I don't really know much past what I've said," etc. I think it's rather odd how he decided to make an RVS vote on SB and then keep it on him once he was voted by SB. Seems pretty reactionary and not in line with the then-relevant discussion of Prims/Manix.

[spoiler=naturally I'm not complaining, but his reason for townreading me is pretty meta-based]

Someone tell me how Green Poet's terrible forced case and lousy logic is any different than her normal town behavior

:D

:/

:(

[eclipse]

I thought Euklyd voted Refa?

(more thoughts in a bit)

[Green Poet]

Will read what's left some hours from now and probably change my vote then too

[Green Poet]

I thought Euklyd voted Refa?

(more thoughts in a bit)

my bad, if we're talking about the same thing, I think that second to last line was meant to have come after a linked post by Refa that got eaten somewhere down the line.

[eclipse]

BBM: I'm waiting for Shinori to explain himself first, since that was his first major post outside of his role. Also, I saw that "hated" thing as a bad rolespec - bad rolespec by itself isn't scummy, but when there's other things happening and rolespec is brought up instead, it's scummy (bad or otherwise).

GP: I think SB brought up Elie disliking Refa as a possibility (albeit a spurious one) to illustrate why FFM's logic was awful. As for Manix, I probably wouldn't have claimed right then and there, but that's because I really dislike claiming unless absolutely necessary. I can see why he'd do it as town, so I don't have a problem with it. Not really feeling Euklyd as a case ATM - the sense I get from his posts is that he's paying enough attention to know what's relevant, but is too tired to generate in-depth reads.

[BBM]

Urgh, so.

Rereading Refa, the only truly scummy thing I can see is the beginning where he was asking questions and then just prodvoting. I feel like his play after that is less scummy and more just bad logic wrt stuff like Prims choosing to vote the scumread with less votes vs the one with more. Also with that thing- I feel like if he had any buddies with more experience they'd be telling him to drop it.

I feel like Euklyd could be scum off gut and because he's not comparing individual facets of GP/FFM's play to their play in games where they've been badtown. It's just a generic "GP and FFM are scummy every game as town so they probably are town again" even though that doesn't precldude them from rolling scum. It's also not really clear to me exactly how scummy he finds Refa because his RVS vote was there too. Also his play feels like Almost OC with the tunneling. I want to see more reads on people other than Refa.

Basically right now I think we should lynch FFM and Shinori and Euklyd should be our CHINESE FIRE DRILL targets (thanks bladescape)

[BBM]

@Eclipse- you're acting as if rolespec was all SB did. He had one line about it to justify a townread on me and then talked about non-rolespec stuff.

[eclipse]

I was talking about FFM?

[eclipse]

Er, that thing I said in my first major post. I've stated more on FFM as the game went on.

[charlie_]

Manix is obvtown (aside from being an easy read) because the mafia don't claim stuff like that unless they have horrible fakeclaims - he could've used that to wreck a NOC town leader or something if he was scum (which I still think we should do but I don't think anyone commented on this) so I don't see why he would claim that considering he'd need to out targets later on in the game.

I used self meta (which isn't even really a good scumtell, see Kay using it to push MLs in ITTD) because Refa attacked me with a meta argument that was obviously wrong. So why is this scummy again?

I feel like GP is kind of taking both sides of the Refa/Me argument to an extent and it's bugging me a bit.

[Terrador]

As an opener, I have a gift for you! A lynch vote spreadsheet, which we can use to keep votals current. I trust that anybody using it won't try to put something in AB84 for somebody to dig up, or intentionally lie. Keep things style-consistent to keep this from being an outside contact method, and I'm sure Elie won't mind.

Not addressing everyone here; only those that ping me or ping a lot of other people.

Pascal: I fail to see what makes him appear scummy, honestly. This reads as a town attempt to call out distancing in the event of one of them flipping; a minor misuse of a term because hoh man, nobody would bus out of the blue! This as well reads as poor town phrasing; he doesn't think Refa being bored should be grounds to be automatically suspicious of him, and frankly, I would agree. There are a million reasons to fall out with a game--strategy, mental fatigue, boredom with your role, the list goes on and on. His last post is pinging me a bit, but all in all, this feels like he's not worried about his own skin, but isn't pinning down reads because there's little information and it's early Day 1. Give 'im some slack, in my opinion. Leaning town.

Refa: Not really worth mention; he's reading town to me. Euklyd case looks solid; can't see any scum intent here. He alludes to a PR at one point, and I'd like to see him out it, but barring that, I don't have any issues with him, and can't quite tell why there's a wagon on him at all. Null read.

SB: ...something about him just strikes me as off. Feels like SB is talking a lot and contributing little, particularly in his... hunt, if you can call it that, on Refa. Null leaning ever-so-slightly scum.

bearclaw: He's literally not posted. Just thought I'd note that.

Euklyd: Personally admitted that he's doing a lot of nothing. Can't pinpoint scum intent, but I have a weak gutread on the bugger.

Manix: This is very worrying. Either there's a cult recruiter, or this is some sort of scum ploy messing with town. Also, your partial claim is very worrying. I hate that I'm rolespeccing this early in the game, but so much of this just doesn't fit into a potential town role. Let's look at the Theorymon , shall we?

1. You can look at outside contact. That's jolly, sure... except scum aren't using the extraordinarily-limited outside contact to strategize. That would be dumb. This isn't a scumhunting tool, so... what does town have to gain? Spying on... other townies? To what end?

2. You say this is a partial claim. This is pretty powerful on its own... powerful, multifaceted roles are traditionally scum.

3. You're claiming with... no perceivable reason for doing so. "Making scum more careful"? Ohh, man, they'd have to talk circumspectly, which hinders them something approaching not at all. And that's if they don't have a QuickTopic you're not privvy to, which I highly doubt.

I generally sort of feel bad about your posts after this, but I can't quite pin it down. You're mostly defending your RVS fight, and... then you tunnel GP for awhile, and switch off to a Refa wagon that I really don't see.

Scummy~

Prims: This seems very, very strange. Why burn your outside contact on Manix, whom you know wouldn't believe it? As ITP or as town fishing, I can't understand it. Even if you were clowning, I'd expect you to try to shoot a smaller fish. ##WORRYING.

In addition, you claim that there's an informed townie and a census taker. Euklyd claimed he had some info, so... where's the other claim? Respective links would be greatly appreciated.

All this said, your cases have generally been constructive and protown, and I fail to see scum intent behind anything else you've posted. Null read, but watching you hard.

Arright, nobody else pings me. Re-reading cases, I'm trusting my own townread on FFM less, and would probably call him null. All in all, I think Manix is behaving most suspiciously today.

##Talk to me, Manix. What you've divulged doesn't line up with what's reasonable or probable.

[charlie_]

How am I contributing very little again?

Terra's Manix case is bad, it's almost entirely based on rolespec over what Manix has actually done. He doesn't really have any other strong reads apart from a FFM townread that doesn't really seem to make sense to me, it kinda feels like he's ignoring the possible ways that FFM could be scum and is just going YEP THIS IS TOWN and stuff like bear not having posted if completely filler. Don't like that post at all.

[eclipse]

No I'm not quoting this

Okay, my thoughts (since I'm bored):

- FFM: I don't see where that "Refa is bored" thing came from. I also see a lack of the "hated" thing, which is what FFM is getting heat for.

- Refa: NO WE ARE NOT CLAIMING RANDOMLY ON D1. I think there's more than enough claims out there, and asking Refa about his role at this point reeks of role fishing. You say he's a town read then end it with null. Which one is it?

- SB: This is the SB I'm reading. If that's "little" contribution, then you should have half the game up for doing nothing (Shinori's worse, IMO, and I'm still waiting for his explanation).

- bearclaw: This was necessary why?

- Euklyd: Eh, fair enough.

- Manix: Y'know what I said earlier about FFM being scummy because he chose to pick on roles instead of content? This is a worse example of it. I honestly don't care what the rest of Manix's role is, and what he said about his role isn't scummy by itself. Using relative power levels as an argument that Manix is scum? No one's flipped, so I have literally no idea what's considered "powerful". And then that summary about Manix's interactions fails to account for the FFM screaming.

- Prims: Already explained himself.

I thought Refa had odd reads. . .this is worse. I see things that are outright missing or completely spun about to generate a case, and that's enough for me to move my vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: Terrador