Starting RD

[Baldrick]

Connection shenanigans.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Baldrick

[dondon151]

If drafters haven't realized how overrated Haar really is, it's not my problem. They can replace him with Titania to great effect. You can tell from my turn count records that I know the game a lot better than any drafter.

if you want to prove a point, you should do a draft first. haar is more banworthy than jill in drafts for the reasons that CR stated above, until proven otherwise.

[Elieson]

if you want to prove a point, you should do a draft first. haar is more banworthy than jill in drafts for the reasons that CR stated above, until proven otherwise.

Furthering this, doing a Max-LTC run with a full-availability roster where you can pick and choose your units freely is significantly different than building a team based on what's available for you at specific instances of time

[Chiki]

You Haar fanboys and girls. Ok then, I'll add a Haarless and Jillless LTC run to my to do list. In fact, I won't even train Marcia or Tanith, and completely replace Haar with Titania for Part 3 (including 3-11) and Jill with Nolan for Part 1 and 2. Hopefully that should give an accurate representation of a draft.

Can someone tell me the usual best draft turncounts for 3-6 without Jill and 3-11 with Haar? On normal mode. I do recall 3-11 in 4 turns being very unreliable even with Haar.

Jill's 3-13 isn't unique; Laura can just as easily 1 turn it as she can with purge.

It's not unique in the strictest sense of the word. You can also give Boots to Nolan or Tauroneo, train them both to 3rd tier, or train up Laura. But all of those have a major cost. Fortunately, training Jill and giving her the Boots is the best thing you can do for Part 4.

Haar is basically easy mode in this case because you don't have to think of who you need to draft in order to cover certain chapters because he covers a lot by himself.

If a way to LTC 3-11 without a flier is found, then this'll decrease Haar's usefulness, since it means you can replace him with just Titania or Oscar.

Anyways, I'm confident Haar shaves only a turn in 3-4 (maybe I can find a way to do that quicker) and maybe a couple in 3-3. We'll have to see.

And in non-LTC contexts, Jill is good, but nothing special, and it's perfectly reasonable to not use her in the long term.

In my posts, I specifically mention that Jill is a great unit to dump resources into regardless of whether you LTC or not. The best way to handle 3-6 and 3-13 is to go on a massacre with a sturdy, bulky Jill and kill Ike quickly respectively. Jill is great for both of those jobs. Boots Jill is amazing for Part 4 since they're almost all rout maps.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Chiki

[Roy: Marquess of Pherae]

So...should I use Jill and haar?

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

So...should I use Jill and haar?

Yes.

Jill for the Dawn Brigde and Haar for Greil's Mercenaries.

You could also bring both to the endgame, if they have good stats.

Edited June 26, 2014 by TalesOf Hysteria

[IceBrand]

So...should I use Jill and haar?

Definitely. There's no reason why you shouldn't.

[Quintessence]

You Haar fanboys and girls. Ok then, I'll add a Haarless and Jillless LTC run to my to do list. In fact, I won't even train Marcia or Tanith, and completely replace Haar with Titania for Part 3 (including 3-11) and Jill with Nolan for Part 1 and 2. Hopefully that should give an accurate representation of a draft.

Can someone tell me the usual best draft turncounts for 3-6 without Jill and 3-11 with Haar? On normal mode. I do recall 3-11 in 4 turns being very unreliable even with Haar.

Thing is, LTC playthrough isn't comparable to Drafts because as Elieson said, in an LTC you have all the roster available, you have much more combinations of minimizing your TC, hence why LTCers get a lower TC than people in drafts. In drafts, you're limited to a cast of 9 drafteds and free units plus a couple of exceptions. Your experiment might be interesting to prove Haar's and Jill's usefulness but only in an LTC context, but drafters have more limited resources, because most of the time due to the mechanic of draft picking, players tend to let go statboosters, like the 1-2 Energy Drop which costs an extra turn (6 turns with the limited selected cast), even the 2-3 Speedwings when you don't pick an extra CRK.

Regarding TC, the usual one for 3-6 without Jill is 7 turns, but I've seen people even get 6 turns wothout Jill. And 3-11 without Haar/Jill/Marcia/Tanith/Sigrun/Ulki/Janaff is like 6 turns by ferrying Ike with a Silver/Gold Knight. And no way it's unreliable with Haar, by that chapter, in drafts, he has already capped a bunch of stats and should not see any issues against Sages or Bishops, and he'll be OHKOing enemies with a forge. Among these fliers, the most unreliable one I recall is Sigrun due to her bases and growths, but the rest of them are pretty fine.

[Jave]

There's no point in training Micaiah because she sucks and promotes too late. Volug relies on Olivi Grass, making him unable to do anything the first few turns, and some player phases, and even with S strike he has relatively poor offense and defense.

Actually, there is a point in training Micaiah. She does make a great Physic user and a Rescue user later on in the game. But she doesn't really need Paragon to do that well; Discipline would be better.

Bear in mind, when I was suggesting to give Micaiah Paragon we were talking strictly about Part 1, when nobody else really benefits from it because no Tier 1 units outside of Micaiah can use it, and Tier 2 units (and Laguz) don't gain enough experience to make much of a difference. Considering Thani can easily kill a huge amount of enemies in Part 1 and she's forced in every map she's available, restricting her seems kind of counter productive. There's plenty of exp. to go around in Part 1 to train Micaiah proper without neglecting other DB units (at least train four of them, plus getting Micaiah to Lv. 20 by 1-E). And near the end, Micaiah gets a map that's all for herself to rack up the exp. So why not slap Paragon on her and make advantage of it? Sure, one could argue that Resolve is better, but you don't need Resolvecaiah to beat 1-9.

For Part 3, Paragon should rotate. I usually give it to Jill or Nolan in 3-6 and 3-12, and any other DB I'm using in 3-13. If Micaiah lags behind I can give her Paragon for 4-P or 4-3, or if Sothe didn't gain enough exp. during Part 3 he can use it for 4-P. Then I let Micaiah keep Paragon through Endgame, because whatever units I'm bringing to Endgame likely don't need it by that point. Anything else is solved with BEXP, and since Micaiah ram caps Magic, Luck and Resistance, BEXP is great to solve her common Speed issues.

Discipline is terrible on Micaiah because she makes no good use of it. Her two Thani tomes give her 90 uses that get her through most of the game, so she can gain Light tome ranks without much aid (Although she'll probably need an Arms Scroll to get her to SS-rank if you want her to bless Rexaura). Micaiah also can't use Staves until Tier 2, but when she promotes she instantly gains C-Rank, which means Physic right off the bat. In order to wield Rescue (which Micaiah has no access to until Part 4), she needs to reach A-rank, which is spamming 15 uses of Physic and a couple of Torch/Mend uses without Discipline. She can easily do this in the three Part 3 maps, so I'm not sure why would she need Discipline just for Rescue.

I agree that Micaiah is better used as a healer starting Part 3, but she can certainly help around as an attack unit if properly trained, and most of the time she isn't even stealing exp. from other characters. Also, since Heal Power and Staff Range is measured by the Magic stat, giving Micaiah levels make her a better healer.

TL;DR "Ooh, he Miccy train good!"

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'm probably the only one, who always gives paragon to Ike's party via Ilyana.

But it mainly depends on the fact that my endgame team consists mainly of units from part 3.

In my runs Edward, Nolan, Micky and Jill get enough levels, so they don't need paragon anyway.

[AMCC4728]

So...should I use Jill and haar?

I think I'm going to try to dive into this slowly. I'll get characters as they go and I can assess their worth with the resources around me. Thank you all.

Do this. The people arguing in this thread are talking about who is better for optimal turn counts. They are literally debating who of the two best units in the game is better in a different playstyle. Their advice is overkill for completing the game casually. Just have fun with your first playthrough. Use units you like.

EDIT:Also you guys should probably make a new topic. This topic isn't about debating Jill vs. Haar.

Edited June 26, 2014 by AMCC4728

[Comet]

If a way to LTC 3-11 without a flier is found, then this'll decrease Haar's usefulness, since it means you can replace him with just Titania or Oscar.

keyword: if

Also rank A support with Nolan and Edward is really easy to get.

And haar is basically Titania that can fly with an eyepatch. I don't how this is so hard to understand. The eyepatch breaks the game.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Comet

[Junkhead]

I got Nolan x Micaiah B-rank by 1-E and the support started at 1-6's base. Go figure.

And yes, it's an LTC HM run.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Jeff Strongman