Conspiracy Mafia - End of Days

[BBM]

and Prims holding onto a Proto vote for shitty reasons is further scummy bc Proto is super-easy lynch bait and I would expect Prims to at least take that somewhat into account.

That being said I don't disagree with what he said about Euklyd but I also think that Refa made a really good point wrt Euklyd. I remember in NSFMM4 he'd copy every other post into the scumchat before he entered it onto SF. Euklyd's posts don't seem to have that hyper-vigilance.

I also find Eclipse suspicious. Blitz vote is bleh; rolespeccing isn't innately scummy and plenty of people do it. Blitz have a few lines role/flavour speccing when he had more talking about actual scumreads (which Eclipse disregards completely btw) isn't automatically worthy of a vote as Eclipse seems to indicate. LAME META reminds me a little of her D1 kirsche case in Masquerade although the shitty reason she considered automatically worthy of a vote was different. She also prods Refa for deriving a scumread on Weapons from 4 lines even though her Blitz vote is pretty much the same.

FFM needs to do something more than claim Miller and leave. LAME ROLESPEC Miller + PGO/Nexus/Ascetic/whatever Eclipse is in the same setup seems kind of weird to me.

FURTHER ROLESPEC though this isn't really lame- I thought that the purpose of the Via flip in the OP was to tell us that there's a cult/recruiting role in the game where the recruits keep their roles.

[Prims]

My case was made under the impression Proto's vote on Refa was serious but posted with silly rhetoric given how he immediately backed up his views on the Euklyd discussion. In hindsight he only did that because you pressed him on not doing anything, but the implication I took from his answer was that he was justifying voting people talking about Euklyd at the same time. In any case, I'm confused how the vote was okay when I first made it but not now, when I never even posted after Proto responded to me.

Also Proto being easy lynch bait doesn't matter since he can still be scum. I still don't find him impressive; naturally wary of "I find this bad, but it COULD be town because WIFOM *no conclusion*".

##Unvote

##Vote: Euklyd

Feel stronger about this than Proto since Proto explained himself but still down to lynch Proto for other reasons.

Vhaltz's Refa case is bad for framing Refa as pushing a false dichotomy when in context it's evident he was trying to convince people to vote with him. I agree with him about Refa casing Proto only to take it back though, what was even the point of that paragraph if you think Proto is town?

[BBM]

When I said "now" I actually meant #64, not "after Proto responded" because it seemed pretty obviously a joke to me considering the reasoning given. It was ok when you made it because there was nothing really going on at that point. I don't really get why you think that Proto would make a serious vote with silly rhetoric either, considering how ultra-serious he was in all his other posts.

However I would like Proto to look at the rest of Refa's stuff rather than considering parts of it, and would like an overall opinion on Refa since he has a vote on Refa and then posts doubting it.

I agree about the bit on Vhaltz; I'm too used to skipping his posts sigh. Don't really get the Blitz blurb, sure there were other people with RVS votes down but Proto was the only one with an RVS vote after a point where there was arguably non-RVS content to work with.

Weapons, do you have opinions on people other than Refa? Also while your point about why scum!Refa would draw attention to themselves is valid, the bit about sticking to your first impression seems like an excuse to never re-evaluate reads.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Eclipse

worse atm; actually almost did this right after my Eclipse case because Prims has more+better non-Proto content than Eclipse has non-Blitz content but I wanted to hear from Prims first. Eclipse > Prims > maybe Vhaltz? right now.

[Blitz]

Okay, I don't know where to start (thinks for a while and realizes this will be a large posts and gets depressed already)

First off,

@Kay

I am sure joke posting is fine, but saying he had no better votes to make (in RVS) is downright disagreement to contribute to RVS, so Euklyd is actually scummy for it.

I believe this game started on D3 for a reason and all these flavors left here are also left here for a reason and we should most definitely try to take advantage of it. (if you don't, you are just trying to play with your hands tied up for no reason)

And besides that, I most definitely want to know why the game started in D3 instead of D1 or say D2 for that matter (if Paperblade just wanted to show the cult, he could have started this D2 with a N0 to start things up, but instead he goes to the trouble of showing an extra 2 roles, why do you think that is?)

next up

@ Refa

I thought Weapons was just setting a trap and Proto stepped on it, so, I think Proto is the worse one if I just regard the first interaction. At the moment, I think Proto has no real content (other tan agreeing with weapons twice) and isn't doing anything useful either. I do not really get why you feel better about Proto. I also do not realize why you have to make Weapons realize that you claimed town in that post as well, why is that and why do you feel better about Proto? (like Vhalz asking before me)

next up

@Vhaltz

I thought Proto 's vote on Refa was serious at first, so I thought he should make a case (if I realized it wasn't a serious vote, I wouldn't have bothered him about it) but then, he changes it to a serious vote with no real reasoning of his own and for a being suspicious of a post where Refa makes a joke about town win con (I think Weapons made the post as a trap to get some discussion started, so, not blaming him yet)

next up, role specs: Rule 13 hints existence of an alignment changer (Cult would be the easiest role here), the game started on D3 and there is anti town role PM outed (like BBM said) it shows the recruited kept his role, but the alignment changed (cause the part in our role PM that says "Innocent Person" is cut out and it has Illuminati inserted there, just shows it must have been a cult rather than a mafia thing. (unless you think mafia, which should not be the case,and even if mafia could, not more than once in which case there would be no point in starting the on D3.

My real thoughts on what Proto is doing is that he is trying to get a lot of people to find him scummy intentionally and planning on dispersing the pressure somehow (I haven't thought out what the how could be) and make thus himself less remarkable throughout the next few phases (and yes, he has done that before and not just once)

like Refa and Vhaltz said, FFM should really get in her and make a post other than just claiming miller and running off and tell us if his miller role is the same way as our dead vig

I must say, FFM's claim really rained on my parade, I thought there would only be one of each role (and very crazy mixed up bastard versions of those roles would be left behind, other than vanillas) but I now doubt that is the case since somone else already claimed miller

I cannot deduce what I think of Refa cause I agree with some of his points, but I don't see how he thinks Proto is townish all of a sudden

I actully find Eclipse scummy, too and I guess you could say everything I think has already been summed up by both Kirsche and BBM (and a lot of better points have been added, I guess it shows I really haven't played mafia in a long while), one thing I want to add however is that in her 2nd post, it sounds to me like she is role fishing (indirectly asking me what relation my role has with the dead guys), but this could be just me

Also, Proto should really post more content (I am keeping my vote here)

From what I have seen so far, I don't like Proto and Eclipse. Euklyd is next after that (cause he finds me to be scum, but isn't even voting me and his 2nd post, which I am not buying as a continuation of his joke either) and FFM for not posting anything useful other than claiming miller

I think weapons should set up more traps and Prims should attack more people


Holy sh*t this took forever and my PC isn't helping.

[Prims]

ok BBM so you think I am intentionally pretending to not have realized Proto was joking so that I would have an excuse to vote him? ~_~ Unfortunately all reasons for explaining why that's stupid border into self-meta but that's still really stupid.

@Blitz: When has Proto pulled something like that as scum? your thoughts on him seem contrived to me since there's nothing indicating he really isn't just genuinely coming off awkwardly due to different playstyle philosophies, which is what Proto is generally like in NOC from my experience. Also, if you think people (weapons) are trapping people then why would you out them, like, ever? Speaking of which Xinnidy please post.

[Blitz]

Itemafia and Ivalice mafia are what comes to mind when I think of this (especially itemafia)

I think his state of mind is perfect at the moment, so, hardly any chances of screw ups, especially the kind we see at the moment

and about Weapons, you are right, I should be more thoughtful ( I just thought I should say something regarding all the stuff where I might seem biased in opinion and didn't think about it)

So, Prims, what do you think of Eclipse?

[Xinnidy]

Speaking of which Xinnidy please post.

No.

Proto's first posts were pretty terrible in how they promoted ED3 discussion stagnation and I disagree with his logic though I am unfortunately aware that his playstyle just strongly clashes against common sense on a normal basis so I am going to take it as Bad Play and keep my belief that he'd just be literally fucked in an all-vanilla game.

...Now that I think about it though I'd like to see Proto give an opinion on kirsche since his Refa case does not seem to have evolved at all since page 2 and kirsche was in a similar position. I'm assuming you're not voting him for having implied scum like weapons said but to have implied town.

I don't like Kay only popping up to defend Euklyd and Proto and calling out Blitz for a stance that he corrected the post after the one she quoted, I just hope I can expect more.

Refa was over-eager to opine on almost everything and it doesn't help him (though I see that much content is gravitating to him right now). His case on Weapons is actually weaker than his case on Proto by his own waffling concerning weapon's motivation and I don't understand how he decided otherwise. It would made more sense if he hadn't given insecure reads on both proto and weapons.

Like even when you said proto is more likely to be town you say that the points against him are valid and him sheeping weapons is bad, and he's done nothing but sheep weapons.

Then we have a OMGUS (been so long) on a legitimate point. I know it's not that strong, and I wouldn't use it past early game, but it's pretty clear that scum has motivation to do it (for the WIFOM) whereas town doesn't.

I'm having trouble understanding this, how is it an OMGUS if you concede the point is legitimate, and what is the scum intent that can't ever be town intent in it?

Also, when did Refa imply he was scum? I see you bringing it up later, but I don't think that was ever the case.

Won't disagree that my vote was OMGUSy, but I don't think your point was legitimate at all.

... and then there's this. This self-consciousness is pretty awful especially after all the attention you brought onto yourself. How much of your read on weapons is thanks to how weapons started your wagon? Because right now it feels like you're weighing more on that to push one of your weaker cases and that feels pretty scummy imo considering when you started defending yourself and voting weapons.

##Vote: Refa

I don't think I've seen enough of Euklyd to understand what he's doing, just a few shared opinions with Refa and some defences here and there. I'd like for him to expand on who he actually finds scummy. Like Blitz apparently.

Not really bothered by the rolespec itself, but does this ping anyone else? Like I thought the Illuminati was just a scumteam, not a cult. Dunno if this is a slip or just a silly assumption, just seemed off to me though.

It seems pretty damn obvious to me that Illuminatti is modconfirmed cult, unless they don't do previous allignment strikethrough on cults anymore since I dropped off of sf mafia.

[Xinnidy]

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

In epicmafia I didn't need to unvote dammit.

[Shinori]

Blitz? WHO ELSE CLAIMED MILLER?

[SB.]

Refa (5): Polydeuces, Vhaltz+Mitsuki, Xinnidy, Proto, Weapons (L-3!)

Blitz (2): eclipse, Kay

Euklyd (1): kirsche, Prims

Weapons (1): Refa

Vhaltz+Mitsuki (1): Euklyd

Proto (1): Blitz

eclipse (1): BBM

Voteless Illuminati (2): Shinori+Eurykins, FFM

You have 47 hours left in the phase... or do you?

[Vhaltz]

I finally got my replies from SB and just like I suspected I'm part postive utility/part negative utility as well. Inclined to just ignore the negative utility claims since bastard games are a thing.

Also wrt all spec by Blitz/BBM and others, the Illuminati thing obviously points towards cult existing in this game (flip is coloured yellow instead of red) but with my limited knowledge of what Paper is like and the wording of pretty much all that the mods have posted it feels like this game is just intentionally trying to get people to speculate about literally everything. There are rules that imply roles involving dead people, there are rules that imply alignment changing roles, there are outright uncertainly-worded rules/mechanics and my PM in particular is a clusterfuck of paranoia. I don't think there's a cult as much as mods are trying to make everybody believe there is.

Vhaltz's Refa case is bad for framing Refa as pushing a false dichotomy when in context it's evident he was trying to convince people to vote with him.

No it wasn't? Refa was attempting to get people to weigh Proto/Weapons which is ok if you're trying to push your own scumread like you're saying but in context Refa's case on Weapons was weak enough that it didn't make sense to me that he'd do it for this purpose. It felt like he was forcing the hard-pushing type of post at a point of the game where it made no sense in order to get people to look in a certain direction (weapons/proto).

My real thoughts on what Proto is doing is that he is trying to get a lot of people to find him scummy intentionally and planning on dispersing the pressure somehow (I haven't thought out what the how could be) and make thus himself less remarkable throughout the next few phases (and yes, he has done that before and not just once)

What

This reasoning is ??? Why would Proto act scummy on purpose for something that scum would gain no benefit from doing? As scum you can't predict where people vote so drawing attention to yourself is an awful move in almost any situation. This reads to me like Blitz is trying to twist Proto's actions into being somehow scummy in order to keep his vote when most of what Proto's been doing is posting weird game opinions.

I'm pretty sure Blitz and Proto aren't scum together. Both Mitsuki and I agree that Blitz is more likely to be scum than Proto atm.

Mitsuki has a hunch that Prims is town from this post as well but she needs to see more from him.

I have some stuff in a notepad but need to see posts from a few particular people before I update anything else.

[Vhaltz]

Wait there's one thing that I did want to post.

Last time I checked eclipse voting people for bad play like rolespeccing was her standard modus operandi, much like Bard's. Her assumption of town in-fighting in her first page 2 post also felt very much like her jumping to conclusions about Conq being town very early in NOCers so I'm not really seeing the cases on her atm.

Also BBM what did you not get about our Blitz comments?

I was going to argue that Proto being the only active player holding an RVS vote at the time was wrong because I thought Euk was there at the time too but apparently he posted like 20 minutes later so I can't say with full confidence.

[Refa]

lol should i claim or something

anyways reading thread now

[Vhaltz]

Eh don't claim imo, it's only slightly over 24h into the phase and at least one of the votes is RVS.

[Refa]

Not seeing Refa's reasons for Proto!town, he spends like a whole paragraph explaining why he's scummy but then handwaves it as "too scummy to be scum". Several people play as scum and have no accurate perception of how legitimate early-game suspicions are going to be in the long run, and if I were to expect to see this from anybody on SF it'd be from somebody who hasn't played in a while. What bugs me the most about this post though is how he twisted the Proto cases into a 1v1 "which of Proto or Weapons is scummier" when Weapons had posted once in barely-out-of-rvs. I can get defending somebody for something that you don't think is scummy but making it into "this other guy is scummier CHOOSE" feels like misdirection intent.

##Vote: Refa

Proto is a thing himself but I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other, defending his specific playstyle is something that I could see coming from either alignment in his situation and his #46 is pretty much continuing to do the same thing. Would like to see opinions on who they think is scum now since his content so far amounts to scumhunting theory discussion/playsyle and a sheep on Weapons' Refa case, neither of which help much wrt following his trains of thought on the game.

Checking timestamps Blitz's #36 is really weird. I initially thought he was voting Proto for his sheepvote on Refa but there's like 2 minutes between Proto and Blitz's posts and he further justifies his vote right after, so his initial Proto case was pretty much a poke on an RVS post asking somebody to build a case. There were many other people with no serious votes at the time so I don't see why singling Proto out of everybody else makes any sense, it feels opportunistic considering that Proto was starting to get flak for his unpopular opinions.

I didn't say I was townreading Proto, just that I was scumreading him and Weapons for similar reasons and what made me think that Proto was townier (read: more likely to be town, not a town read) than Weapons. Also it's not a 1v1 lol, people were scumreading Proto for similar reasons to Weapons (much like myself) so I wanted to know why they thought Weapons was less scummy overall.

Also regarding your Proto read, didn't you just say earlier that you were expecting my "too scummy to be scum" blurb on Proto to come from someone who hasn't played mafia in a while? So why is he just a null read for you despite that?

Because Proto's vote could be construed as serious, I'd assume (I was confused about the nature about it myself until he said it was a joke).

Too lazy to make more quotes, but kirsche asked me what was most indicative of alignments in RVS. It's hard to say, but I feel like scum will rigidly try to play to their town meta there, even if it's not something that they'd do as town in that situation (if that makes any sense). At least that's something I've done in RVS as scum before.

More to come, get hype (unless I get a sub...marine, I'm going in one of those).

[Zkirsche]

No don't claim we have lots of time.

Refa was over-eager to opine on almost everything

How is this scummy?

Also Weapons case on Refa was based on a false assumption (I believe he accused Refa of joking that he were scum when he was referencing town's wincon) which led to confusion on Refa's part.

I'll let Refa tackle the rest as I want to hear his defence. Xinnidy what do you think of my eclipse case? What do you think of BBM's points against Prims?

Last time I checked eclipse voting people for bad play like rolespeccing was her standard modus operandi

Except rolespeccing isn't necessarily bad play? Also it doesn't excuse the fact that it's a very dumb and easy vote to sit on. Policy voting is bad.

Her assumption of town in-fighting in her first page 2 post also felt very much like her jumping to conclusions about Conq being town very early in NOCers so I'm not really seeing the cases on her atm.

She isn't really jumping to conclusions, she stated that she had a few weak town reads and a bunch of null reads which is hardly conclusive.

Again, I almost feel like she's cheering on mislynches from the sidelines w.r.t. her Refa actions and I'll be interested to see if she can actually make a case which isn't "your being graspy" or "you're rolespeccing".

[Refa]

kirsche bring up some good points WRT Euklyd (specifically ignoring global scumtells and leaving his vote on an RVS wagon), but I feel better about him overall because of what I've said before (also I don't feel like he'd forgot to change his vote as scum).

Fair enough on your Blitz point (I earlier thought it was weird that he implied there was some alignment changing role), I didn't really pay that much attention to the OP (sorry Paperblade). Regardless if the recruitment is cult or mafia, I'll probably remain forever town because of all of the scumreads on me. :3

I think your eclipse point is legit actually (her oversimplifying my case). Also more importantly, I feel like she'd vote me as town (or say she wasn't voting me because there was a wagon) rather than simply voting Blitz because he was rolespeccing (which is something she's never liked, but I don't remember her ever thinking it was scummy).

Don't agree with your Prims vote, BBM. I wasn't sure of whether or not Proto's vote was RVS either, so I can understand Prims and other people being confused by that as well. Also at the time, Prims hadn't made a post since Proto announced it was a joke vote. I do think that his Euklyd case seemed stronger though.

FURTHER ROLESPEC though this isn't really lame- I thought that the purpose of the Via flip in the OP was to tell us that there's a cult/recruiting role in the game where the recruits keep their roles.

Damn, seriously? Then I'm definitely not claiming lol.

Also would agree with Prims WRT this: "Also Proto being easy lynch bait doesn't matter since he can still be scum. I still don't find him impressive; naturally wary of "I find this bad, but it COULD be town because WIFOM *no conclusion*"." At the same time, other people have done this as well (notably eclipse). What do you think of her?

Also I don't think Proto is town, just that he's townier than Weapons (who I find scummy for similar reasons). Maybe my wording sucked (too lazy to ISO myself), but that's how it is.

[Vhaltz]

I didn't say I was townreading Proto, just that I was scumreading him and Weapons for similar reasons and what made me think that Proto was townier (read: more likely to be town, not a town read) than Weapons. Also it's not a 1v1 lol, people were scumreading Proto for similar reasons to Weapons (much like myself) so I wanted to know why they thought Weapons was less scummy overall.

Wow I read this completely wrong, apparently Mitsuki read it the way you're saying the first time around and was trying to tell me the whole time. Go me.

ftr I read it like "Proto is townie and Weapons is scum everybody who is voting Proto should tell me why Weapons isn't scummier" and it read like a very weird combination of a hard defense on a badly based townread and a hard push on a weak scumread hence my thinking there were additional intentions etc.

Anyway what I was holding back was this:

That said I've been mulling things over during our commutes and I'm not really convinced Refa is scum anymore, seeing his earlier flurry of posts he could've posted that forced-sounding post earlier as a result of tryharding, and I didn't really have any other issues with anything else in his posts (his reasons for Euk townread are k). I also have trouble seeing him posting this as scum considering that it only serves to gather more attention upon himself and the cases on him, META ALERT I'm pretty certain Refa!scum would've waited it out and replied to the cases on him later to try to get people to reconsider while avoiding any additional attention in between.

...Which I intended to post right after my reply to Prims but figured I'd wait for you to post in case my reconsidering was dumb.

##Unvote

##Vote: Blitz

Also regarding your Proto read, didn't you just say earlier that you were expecting my "too scummy to be scum" blurb on Proto to come from someone who hasn't played mafia in a while? So why is he just a null read for you despite that?

Because his play at that point could've come either alignment and I thought your reasoning to call him town was way too stretched.

[MRDRHAWK]

wait did two people claim miller

cuz I know that ffm did

also can someone sum up why exactly Refa is scum because I kinda don't see it?

##Unvote

for now until I can actually go through and get a proper case on someone

[Refa]

Something that stands out to me about BBM is how he's never commented on me. Like BBM, am I null to you (and why)? Also what did you get out of Prims' response (since apparently you voted him to get a reaction of some sort)? That said, I'd totally sheep his eclipse vote and his other content was fine (...or was it?).

Already mentioned why I feel better about Proto, Blitz. There were things that he did that seemed to come from a town mindset.

Man that was a long post from Blitz. Seemed fine overall but I should probably reread it later since I just kind of skimmed it because it was so long.

Blitz? WHO ELSE CLAIMED MILLER?

Bizz in the OP. Also Shinori stop playing WoW/LoL and make a post. :>

Yeah, what Vhaltz says about the setup makes sense (specifically that it's just trying to fuck with us and we shouldn't really be assuming anything at the moment). Also Blitz's case on Proto is kind of weird but he honestly pulls that kind of stuff all the time (ask Mitsuki about MLP Mafia where he had similar baffling levels of logic like not knowing I was claimed scum and still ended up being town) so I don't think it's really scummy. Like for me it comes across more as a misinterpretation than a misrepresentation. That said, it'd probably be better for someone who's more used to playing with Blitz to say something about him because I haven't even played any games where he was scum.

ONLY THREE MORE POSTS TO COMMENT ON (Xinny's and kirsche's and Vhaltz's latest) AND I'M DONE FINALLY

[Refa]

Actually I have to go now (on vacation and all that), so I'll comment on them later.

REFA OUT

[MRDRHAWK]

wait hold on

FFM claimed miller

and a miller "flipped"

hmmmmmmmmmmm

##Vote: FFM

sus as sus can be

[BBM]

I should probably have a real opinion on you but tbh I don't. My gut is town but I don't like the way you were like "wow I'm definitely not claiming then" in response to what I said about cult. Maybe I shouldn't draw attention to it but it felt like a subtle PR crumb to dissuade voters which I generally find is something scum do? aaaand you're out

I didn't really vote Prims for a reaction; he was originally the person that stood out to me the most so I voted him. Then when I started talking about Eclipse I decided that she was actually worse but that I might as well wait for a response from Prims before switching over.

Poly that's a terrible excuse for content; FFM wouldn't fake Miller unless it was given as a mod-fakeclaim. And a role like Miller that's really more of a modifier can be there multiple times anyways, especially in a bastard game. Please try harder.

[BBM]

and also "bulletproof miller vigilante" is very obviously a joke flip other than the fact that it tells us there's a cult; come on dude

[MRDRHAWK]

you couldn't see the sarcasm dripping from that post? come on bbm you're better than that ;/

I'm still re-reading to see what I missed while I was out today, gimme some time