What Exactly Qualifies As Turtling?

[Junkhead]

Okay.

"Okay", what?

Turtling = Snowy playing Fire Emblem.

Don't think I've seen him play. But, I assumed he can't be that bad, if he partakes in debates every now and then. Edited July 10, 2014 by jorgito

[Tryhard]

"Okay", what?

"Okay", okay.

[BBM]

worse how

because if you're a better FE player you can strategize in such a manner that your units aren't any more in danger than when you're hiding behind a chokepoint, even when you're moving faster. It's not about LTC (LTC normally is a little unreliable actually) but you can play fairly efficiently and have the same chances of death as someone turtling (random enemy crits and stuff)

[Loki Laufeyson]

no one said that turtling is bad. it's just the hallmark of worse fire emblem player.

"not saying turtling is bad, but turtling is bad."

Uehhmm...yeah sure, mate.

Because it's not LTC.

hue

Im pretty sure everyone turtles to some extent on higher difficulties.

[solrocknroll]

Really, it is never necessary to turtle in Fire Emblem, but you're kidding yourself if you think that the same blitzkrieg strategies you use in FE

work for Advance Wars.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Rinoa Heartilly

[dondon151]

"not saying turtling is bad, but turtling is bad."

Uehhmm...yeah sure, mate.

unless you object to being called a worse fire emblem player (by the way, it's okay to not be great at fire emblem), then no one suggested that turtling is "bad."

i mean, a slow woodcutter is more likely to be a worse woodcutter. a slow accountant is more likely to be a worse accountant. a slow fire emblem player is more likely to be a worse fire emblem player. and so on.

Edited July 10, 2014 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

but you can play fairly efficiently and have the same chances of death as someone turtling (random enemy crits and stuff)

This is false. As a general rule, the more turns a strategy takes, the more reliable it is. Between two players of equal skill, the one playing more defensively can weather more bad RNs.

[Irysa]

Reinforcements would disagree with that assessment.

[dondon151]

This is false. As a general rule, the more turns a strategy takes, the more reliable it is. Between two players of equal skill, the one playing more defensively can weather more bad RNs.

this is false. as a general rule, the more turns a strategy takes, the more likely it is that something bad can happen.

[PKL]

Reinforcements, you risk more critical hits, more hits to land = more miss chances etc. There's playing cautiously and then there's turtling. Also, playing slowly usually means using up weapons more, so more money spent too.

Edited July 11, 2014 by PKL

[Baldrick]

If you have a good turtling strategy, the reinforcements will have the same chance of killing a unit as the starting enemies. Virtually zero. And if you still haven't killed the starting enemies, the reinforcements will be blocked off and not an immediate threat.

The less turns you take, the less miss chances you can afford.

Seriously guys, don't be obtuse. You know what FE often relies on proccing low probability crits and the like to get the absolute lowest turncount. It's simple to extrapolate from that.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Baldrick

[PKL]

I'm not talking about low turncount though. Simply that there is such a thing as too slow. You can play fast (not LTC fast) and still be maximum reliability in most FE games.

[General Horace]

I'm actually inclined to agree with Baldrick.

If you're playing something like FE11 H5 and you miss an 85% ridersbane, chances are you've lost a unit on the next enemy phase. If you wait and miss that 85% ridersbane on the enemy phase, chances are you can work around it on your turn. There are definately some exceptions where you can just get totally wrecked by reinforcements if you're turtling too much (like the FE5 prison chapter with the endless reinforcements and you get pincer'd between Dalshin's room and the Soldiers) but more often than not you'll be ok.

[Junkhead]

It's pretty obvious that "turtling" is taking it slow, in FE.

Please, let's not make a semantical discussion of off every little thing that's supposed to be obvious.

[dondon151]

Seriously guys, don't be obtuse. You know what FE often relies on proccing low probability crits and the like to get the absolute lowest turncount. It's simple to extrapolate from that.

i'm not being obtuse; i'm saying things that are true. the more turns you take on a chapter, the more likely you are to make a careless mistake (trivial to prove), and the less likely you are to remember a good way to go about the chapter afterwards.

i'm surprised (but, i shouldn't be) that you assumed one property of a turtling strategy but denied it to efficient strategies:

If you have a good turtling strategy, the reinforcements will have the same chance of killing a unit as the starting enemies. Virtually zero. And if you still haven't killed the starting enemies, the reinforcements will be blocked off and not an immediate threat.

if you have a good efficient strategy, enemies have virtually zero chance of killing a unit. duh. (i can also make meaningless statements.)

a player who turtles is usually a worse player, and he's more likely to make a mistake. the likelihood of making a mistake compounded over many turns means that the chance of committing a mistake when turtling is very high, anyway.

Edited July 11, 2014 by dondon151

[Florete]

The best defense is a good offense.

If you're moving faster it usually means you're killing enemies quickly; the opposite is true for turtling strategies. The idea that a strategy that uses turtling will always be more reliable is not true for 99% of cases in Fire Emblem if only because enemies stay alive longer and have more chances to give you a hard time. Good players can move at a quick pace (read: not LTC) while keeping risk minimal because moving quickly doesn't mean you constantly put allies in dangerous situations, it means you take out threats and always have a backup plan. Moving quickly doesn't mean a miss is a perilous situation, it means you need to adjust a bit.

Some might object to the statement that players who turtle are worse at the game than players who move quickly, but it really is true. Turtling means you're worried about staying safe; moving quickly means you're not worried because you know exactly what's going on, you've got things under control. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's the truth. In almost all cases, video games and other things in life, moving quicker is a sign of greater skill.

[eclipse]

In almost all cases, video games and other things in life, moving quicker is a sign of greater skill.

Not quite. And I'll use something that I'm sure the vast majority of this board can relate to - intestines.

Let's start with slow. VERY slow. The result is constipation, which is painful, messy, and not very healthy. Next up is fast, because things that go fast are good, right? Nope, diarrhea is also painful, messy, and not very healthy. The ideal range is somewhere in between - not so slow that things are being backed up, but not so fast that it causes more severe problems. This holds true for other things in life (heartbeat, breathing, doing one's taxes, driving. . .especially driving, etc.).

I think pacing in non-LTC Fire Emblem works the same way - not so slow that very little happens, but not so fast that my units are exposed to unnecessary danger. Turtling, in my mind, is a pace where there's little chance of death, even though a faster pace yields the same result.

EDIT: I CAN WORDS, I PROMISE!

Edited July 11, 2014 by eclipse

[Refa]

There's nothing wrong with it, but it's the truth. In almost all cases, video games and other things in life, moving quicker is a sign of greater skill.

NOT IN BED

Really though, I'd say turtling is needlessly waiting around when it doesn't actually improve the reliability of the clear.

[Baldrick]

The idea that a strategy that uses turtling will always be more reliable is not true for 99% of cases in Fire Emblem if only because enemies stay alive longer and have more chances to give you a hard time.

When is a high-threat enemy (like a swordmaster) is more likely to give you a hard time; if it gets three attacks on Gatrie, or if it gets one attack on Mia?

Turtling means you're worried about staying safe; moving quickly means you're not worried because you know exactly what's going on, you've got things under control.

Turtling isn't about hiding behind a chokepoint, quaking in fear at the enemy. It's about removing the enemies' ability to hurt you. How is that not having control of the situation? Admittedly, it is often overkill since most games have weak enemies, but when they are designed to be taken seriously (like in Awakening's Lunatic+) it's risky to try to power through the enemy.

[dondon151]

Turtling isn't about hiding behind a chokepoint, quaking in fear at the enemy. It's about removing the enemies' ability to hurt you. How is that not having control of the situation?

if by definition turtling renders the player formation impenetrable, then this discussion is not worthwhile, not in the least because it assumes a perfect player who can execute such a no-risk strategy. if you are allowed to assert this definition of turtling, then what stops me from asserting a similar definition for efficiency?

[Knight]

In almost all cases, video games and other things in life, moving quicker is a sign of greater skill.

Unless it's a survival game, a balancing act, slow cookers.

[Florete]

When is a high-threat enemy (like a swordmaster) is more likely to give you a hard time; if it gets three attacks on Gatrie, or if it gets one attack on Mia?

Neither, assuming the Swordmaster can't kill Mia. And if this skilled player is letting a swordmaster attack Mia, it wouldn't be able to kill.

Turtling isn't about hiding behind a chokepoint, quaking in fear at the enemy. It's about removing the enemies' ability to hurt you. How is that not having control of the situation? Admittedly, it is often overkill since most games have weak enemies, but when they are designed to be taken seriously (like in Awakening's Lunatic+) it's risky to try to power through the enemy.

If your goal is to remove enemies' ability to hurt you, you're not going to turtle, you're going to kill enemies so they can't hurt you. If you have to turtle, it's most likely because you can't find a way to move out safely. I mean, I guess it's possible that there are people who are legitimately good who just enjoy turtling, but I know that the better I got at these games, the faster I started moving.

Lunatic+ and SD H5 are the sort of exceptions to the rule since enemies are so tough that turtling can become a near necessity.

Unless it's a survival game, a balancing act, slow cookers.

I did say "almost" for a reason, but at least in a survival game, you'll still want speed in acquiring resources.

[Baldrick]

Neither, assuming the Swordmaster can't kill Mia. And if this skilled player is letting a swordmaster attack Mia, it wouldn't be able to kill.

Say that he could, if he landed a crit. Wouldn't moving quickly and resetting a Battle Save if he did crit be a sign of greater skill? Half-serious, since they'd be making use of the tools they're given.

If your goal is to remove enemies' ability to hurt you, you're not going to turtle, you're going to kill enemies so they can't hurt you.

I don't disagree the latter method is more efficient, more interesting to watch, more elegant, less tedious, etc. But I think it is just as effective, and less effective in those exceptional cases.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Baldrick

[Florete]

Say that he could, if he landed a crit.

The player wouldn't let him attack Mia.

Wouldn't moving quickly and resetting a Battle Save if he did crit be a sign of greater skill? Half-serious, since they'd be making use of the tools they're given.

For the sake of not going into such territory, let's just say any resets would be avoided.

I don't disagree the latter method is more efficient, more interesting to watch, more elegant, less tedious, etc. But I think it is just as effective, and less effective in those exceptional cases.

It's going to be more or less effective for some, that's for sure. Someone who usually turtles probably won't get good results from suddenly going fast.

[Passionfruit Cappuccino]

Isnt turtling just using basic defensive tactics without advancing? I generally use turtling whenever im in a chapter with a castle (unless theres a time limit and chests are availiable, or if there are thieves around) since reinforcements will generally arrive later on