Should the weapon weight return?

[CT075]

fe4's system was the best because it averted the trend of axes being unequivocably the best weapon type

if lances had 6-8 weight and axes had 12 weight (numbers off the top of my head) instead, the fe4 system would've been pretty balanced

[Florete]

no it doesn't

For real.

In FE5 it actually works, but that's because con can increase and capturing/stealing. In the GBA games it cripples units who aren't jacked males.

I have limited experience with Thracia, but I'm pretty sure Build and CON are effectively the exact same thing except that in Thracia units have small Build growths. Capturing/stealing isn't going to change any speed woes.

But really - and this is for everyone who has a big problem with CON - most female characters that are bad or not-great aren't so due to their CON. Some are noticeably hindered by it, like Isadora with axes, but I really can't think of a single unit whose primary issue is CON and simply can't get out of it, though if there is they would have to be in FE6 because enemies in 7 and 8 just aren't good enough (when Florina can double enemies with a Steel Lance, you know your opponent sucks). Maybe Echidna? Mostly because, as someone noted earlier, enemies also get weighed down. So if your Pegasus Knight is losing 4 Speed from weapon weight, but her opponent is also losing 4 Speed, there is no difference.

[Straylock]

Personally, I'd be fine with it remaining gone. If it did come back however, I really do think it should be something a character grows out of. In the GBA games, it was a tad ridiculous how quite a few characters couldn't use stronger weapons effectively until they either promoted, or if the player decided to dump body rings on them. I know it's been said already, but high level tomes should not weigh as much as they do in those games.

My favorite system was the strength based system in the Tellius games. The build system of Thracia 776 is fairly similar, however I preferred how build and a character's ability to wield a weapon were seperate. It's been a while since I last played Thracia, but isn't it possible to have instances where a character can no longer rescue a character they were able to if the rescue target's build grows too high? With the strength system, a character's build will remain constant so that you don't have to worry about that happening. I get most people rescue with mounted units to get around that, but what if that isn't an option?

Edited August 14, 2014 by Nylock

[Mighty Kamina]

I have limited experience with Thracia, but I'm pretty sure Build and CON are effectively the exact same thing except that in Thracia units have small Build growths. Capturing/stealing isn't going to change any speed woes.

I think Thracia's weight system works best because it actually adds to gameplay (Capture/Stealing was pretty amazing) rather than just slowing your units down and making them dodge less.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kamina

[Florete]

I think Thracia's weight system works best because it actually adds to gameplay rather than just slowing your units down and making them dodge less.

But the weight system is exactly the same. Capturing is just another feature, it's not a part of the [weapon] weight system. It could easily exist right alongside GBA CON with no problems (That is, no problems with CON itself). And how does needing to be aware of weapon weight and what weapons will work for a unit not add to gameplay?

Besides, there's also rescuing.

[Mighty Kamina]

But the weight system is exactly the same. Capturing is just another feature, it's not a part of the [weapon] weight system. It could easily exist right alongside GBA CON with no problems (That is, no problems with CON itself). And how does needing to be aware of weapon weight and what weapons will work for a unit not add to gameplay?

Besides, there's also rescuing.

I think my wording has been poor, so let me restart. I think weight works in Thracia because it works in unison with Con to make new, interesting mechanics (Stealing/Capturing) rather than just slowing some units down. If stealing worked like in Thracia for all FE games I'd be fine with weight coming back, if the Con or Build stat could increase as well. In the other games, I personally feel weight does nothing more than keep me away from steel weapons and make a lot of units who would be pretty good otherwise outclassed by units with similar stats but higher con.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kamina

[dondon151]

FE5's randomly growing bld stat was frustrating because bld is not something that's unequivocally better the higher it is.

[arvilino]

FE5's randomly growing bld stat was frustrating because bld is not something that's unequivocally better the higher it is.

That wouldn't really matter though in a newer title because Fire Emblem games don't/won't use the rescue mechanic anymore.

Edited August 14, 2014 by arvilino

[dondon151]

which is a shame, because that's one of the best mechanics in the series.

without rescuing, i wouldn't care about a constitution system, either.

Edited August 14, 2014 by dondon151

[Jotari]

That wouldn't really matter though in a newer title because Fire Emblem games don't/won't use the rescue mechanic anymore.

That doesn't mean it can't come back. We are talking about something else that's been removed after all. Personally I would like to see rescuing come back if weight was coming back, so Con was a stat with multiple uses. And I do think rescue and pair up could both work as features at the same time.

[Florete]

I think my wording has been poor, so let me restart. I think weight works in Thracia because it works in unison with Con to make new, interesting mechanics (Stealing/Capturing) rather than just slowing some units down. If stealing worked like in Thracia for all FE games I'd be fine with weight coming back, if the Con or Build stat could increase as well. In the other games, I personally feel weight does nothing more than keep me away from steel weapons and make a lot of units who would be pretty good otherwise outclassed by units with similar stats but higher con.

CON is a stat just like any other. Should we get rid of Speed because it makes some units better than others who have similar stats, but less Speed? Of course not.

The point of weapon weight is the tradeoff. Use the stronger, heavier weapon? Or the weaker, lighter weapon? Steel also had the advantage of usually giving increased weapon experience, which I thought to be its particular niche; one point of good execution in the system. The system could easily make use of more features as well, such as capturing (though I personally don't like capturing).

Like dondon, though, I don't think it should have a growth due to the way the stat works. I think it would work best if higher weapon levels gave attack speed loss buffers, so the higher your weapon level, the less you lose from weapons that require lower ranks. S rank could also be the point at which there is no longer any speed loss since that's supposed to be the point of weapon mastery.

[arvilino]

That doesn't mean it can't come back. We are talking about something else that's been removed after all. Personally I would like to see rescuing come back if weight was coming back, so Con was a stat with multiple uses. And I do think rescue and pair up could both work as features at the same time.

That seems a bit redundant though, Pair Up even without canto/re-move can do more things than Rescue can and the one type of movement rescue could do that Pair Up couldn't is emulated through the Rescue Staff. Rescue itself is pretty much obsolete in the new set up.

[Mighty Kamina]

CON is a stat just like any other. Should we get rid of Speed because it makes some units better than others who have similar stats, but less Speed? Of course not.

You can increase a unit's speed without speed wings. Outside of Thracia the only way to increase Con is with a body ring or whatever it's called.

Like dondon, though, I don't think it should have a growth due to the way the stat works. I think it would work best if higher weapon levels gave attack speed loss buffers, so the higher your weapon level, the less you lose from weapons that require lower ranks. S rank could also be the point at which there is no longer any speed loss since that's supposed to be the point of weapon mastery.

That would be an execution I wouldn't mind.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kamina

[Shadow Mir]

fe4's system was the best because it averted the trend of axes being unequivocably the best weapon type

if lances had 6-8 weight and axes had 12 weight (numbers off the top of my head) instead, the fe4 system would've been pretty balanced

There's also the magic triangle, bu even in FE4, where it was arguably more relevant then it ever was in succeeding games, it was laughably fucked up (You know something's wrong when a wind mage essentially is on equal footing with a fire mage).

For real.

I have limited experience with Thracia, but I'm pretty sure Build and CON are effectively the exact same thing except that in Thracia units have small Build growths. Capturing/stealing isn't going to change any speed woes.

But really - and this is for everyone who has a big problem with CON - most female characters that are bad or not-great aren't so due to their CON. Some are noticeably hindered by it, like Isadora with axes, but I really can't think of a single unit whose primary issue is CON and simply can't get out of it, though if there is they would have to be in FE6 because enemies in 7 and 8 just aren't good enough (when Florina can double enemies with a Steel Lance, you know your opponent sucks). Maybe Echidna? Mostly because, as someone noted earlier, enemies also get weighed down. So if your Pegasus Knight is losing 4 Speed from weapon weight, but her opponent is also losing 4 Speed, there is no difference.

Err, Echidna actually has decent con relative to most female characters in the GBA era (the only other females I can think of who have cons that are AT LEAST equal to her 9 are Wendy, Amelia, Miledy, Vaida, end list).

Edited August 14, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Jotari]

CON is a stat just like any other. Should we get rid of Speed because it makes some units better than others who have similar stats, but less Speed? Of course not.

The point of weapon weight is the tradeoff. Use the stronger, heavier weapon? Or the weaker, lighter weapon? Steel also had the advantage of usually giving increased weapon experience, which I thought to be its particular niche; one point of good execution in the system. The system could easily make use of more features as well, such as capturing (though I personally don't like capturing).

Like dondon, though, I don't think it should have a growth due to the way the stat works. I think it would work best if higher weapon levels gave attack speed loss buffers, so the higher your weapon level, the less you lose from weapons that require lower ranks. S rank could also be the point at which there is no longer any speed loss since that's supposed to be the point of weapon mastery.

Steel Weapons give above average weapons exp? I didn't know that. I wish Fire Emblem made more info readily available. It's one gripe I have about the series. Especially growth rates. The games treat it like you should know what they are yet never displays them anywhere.

That seems a bit redundant though, Pair Up even without canto/re-move can do more things than Rescue can and the one type of movement rescue could do that Pair Up couldn't is emulated through the Rescue Staff. Rescue itself is pretty much obsolete in the new set up.

Pair Up can't do the one thing rescue is designed to do, and that is save a weakened unit. Once a unit has moved they can't become the support in a pair up, only another unit can support them so there's no way of saving them using pair up if they're on 1hp save giving them enough defense/resistance to survive. And the argument that rescue staves make it obsolete is silly. We've had rescue staves ever since, I believe, the third game in the series and rescue as a mechanic has still been a viable aspect of the game.

[Icon of Sin]

You can increase a unit's speed without speed wings. Outside of Thracia the only way to increase Con is with a body ring or whatever it's called.

What about promotion bonuses. Very handy for magic users and somewhat for Falcoknights.

[Florete]

You can increase a unit's speed without speed wings. Outside of Thracia the only way to increase Con is with a body ring or whatever it's called.

Doesn't matter. It's a setback the unit needs to work around. (and some will never have enough Speed for it to mean anything regardless)

Advantages and disadvantages are in every aspect of the game. There's no reason CON and weapon weight should leave for being just the same.

Err, Echidna actually has decent con relative to most female characters in the GBA era (the only other females I can think of who have cons that are AT LEAST equal to her 9 are Wendy, Amelia, Miledy, Vaida, end list).

I was talking about units being particularly hindered by their CON stat, not simply having low CON. 9 CON is great with swords, and Echidna has swords, but she "mains" axes and comes with a Steel Axe, which makes 9 CON look not very good, especially in FE6.

[PKL]

Steel Weapons give above average weapons exp? I didn't know that. I wish Fire Emblem made more info readily available. It's one gripe I have about the series. Especially growth rates. The games treat it like you should know what they are yet never displays them anywhere.

Pair Up can't do the one thing rescue is designed to do, and that is save a weakened unit. Once a unit has moved they can't become the support in a pair up, only another unit can support them so there's no way of saving them using pair up if they're on 1hp save giving them enough defense/resistance to survive. And the argument that rescue staves make it obsolete is silly. We've had rescue staves ever since, I believe, the third game in the series and rescue as a mechanic has still been a viable aspect of the game.

There's also stuff like Stefan and hidden items that you wouldn't have any clue they're there without a walkthrough.

[Shadow Mir]

CON is a stat just like any other. Should we get rid of Speed because it makes some units better than others who have similar stats, but less Speed? Of course not.

The point of weapon weight is the tradeoff. Use the stronger, heavier weapon? Or the weaker, lighter weapon? Steel also had the advantage of usually giving increased weapon experience, which I thought to be its particular niche; one point of good execution in the system. The system could easily make use of more features as well, such as capturing (though I personally don't like capturing).

Like dondon, though, I don't think it should have a growth due to the way the stat works. I think it would work best if higher weapon levels gave attack speed loss buffers, so the higher your weapon level, the less you lose from weapons that require lower ranks. S rank could also be the point at which there is no longer any speed loss since that's supposed to be the point of weapon mastery.

I guess you have a point. That said, I never saw increased weapon exp as reason enough to bother with steel (specifically, steel axes and lances), other than if the unit in question either took no penalty or the penalty was negligible, given that in general I never had issues with weapon exp (Well, aside from FE6, that is, given that all weapons only give you 1 WEXP in that game).

I was talking about units being particularly hindered by their CON stat, not simply having low CON. 9 CON is great with swords, and Echidna has swords, but she "mains" axes and comes with a Steel Axe, which makes 9 CON look not very good, especially in FE6.

Okay then.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Jotari]

There's also stuff like Stefan and hidden items that you wouldn't have any clue they're there without a walkthrough.

Hell weapon exp itself is something that is never explained. Sure some games show a gauge going up on your weapon ranks but I don't think we're ever told certain weapons raise it quicker than others.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i wish i could remember who it was but i remember afew posts in this thread being like.

'weight sucks cause my 16 year old skinny waifu couldn't lift as much as a muscular middle aged male"

i admit i do prefer the STR based system, just because it makes abit more sense.

Edited August 14, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Julius Nepos]

The main issue with weight is that it functions entirely differently from other weapon statistics. Might gives a bonus to attack, hit gives a bonus to accuracy, critical gives a bonus to critical, but weight gives a penalty to attack speed. If we're debating whether we want a static stat like Con or a progressing stat like Str to reduce the penalty, the point of the debate is: do we want units to be impaired by weight the entire game or do we want units to grow out of weight being a hindrance to them?

I would certainly choose the former. Despite weight functioning so differently than other weapon stats, it still is a weapon stat. All other weapon stats remain important throughout the entire game: the further you are into the game, the higher your units' attack, hit and critical will be (because of strength and skill growing as they level-up). However enemies will have higher defence, resistance, avoid and critical evade, so your increase in attack, hit and critical is balanced by the enemies' increase in attack reduce, hit reduce and critical reduce, so the "might issue", "hit issue" and "critical issue" remain. But enemies have no attack speed reduce. As a unit's weight buffer grows, it simply grows, and the "weight issue" simply grows smaller and smaller, until it ceases to exist altogether. That's why I am in favour of a static buffer rather than a progressing one.

[Shadow Mir]

The main issue with weight is that it functions entirely differently from other weapon statistics. Might gives a bonus to attack, hit gives a bonus to accuracy, critical gives a bonus to critical, but weight gives a penalty to attack speed. If we're debating whether we want a static stat like Con or a progressing stat like Str to reduce the penalty, the point of the debate is: do we want units to be impaired by weight the entire game or do we want units to grow out of weight being a hindrance to them?

I would certainly choose the former. Despite weight functioning so differently than other weapon stats, it still is a weapon stat. All other weapon stats remain important throughout the entire game: the further you are into the game, the higher your units' attack, hit and critical will be (because of strength and skill growing as they level-up). However enemies will have higher defence, resistance, avoid and critical evade, so your increase in attack, hit and critical is balanced by the enemies' increase in attack reduce, hit reduce and critical reduce, so the "might issue", "hit issue" and "critical issue" remain. But enemies have no attack speed reduce. As a unit's weight buffer grows, it simply grows, and the "weight issue" simply grows smaller and smaller, until it ceases to exist altogether. That's why I am in favour of a static buffer rather than a progressing one.

Bold: Are you playing the same game as the rest of us??? Because enemies DO have AS reduction, last I checked.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Julius Nepos]

Bold: Are you playing the same game as the rest of us??? Because enemies DO have AS reduction, last I checked.

Yes, their own attack speed is reduced, but they do not reduce the player's attack speed, which was my point. The effects of the player's growing attack, hit and critical are balanced by the enemies' growing attack reduce, hit reduce and critical reduce, but as the player's weight buffer grows, the enemy's "weight buffer reduce" does not grow, because there is no weight buffer reduce. This makes weight less and less relevant as the game progresses.

[Shadow Mir]

Yes, their own attack speed is reduced, but they do not reduce the player's attack speed, which was my point. The effects of the player's growing attack, hit and critical are balanced by the enemies' growing attack reduce, hit reduce and critical reduce, but as the player's weight buffer grows, the enemy's "weight buffer reduce" does not grow, because there is no weight buffer reduce. This makes weight less and less relevant as the game progresses.

Okay, just what the hell do you mean by a "weight buffer" ???