Brave Weapons: how should they be handled

[Thor Odinson]

What is this nonsense about Brave Weapons onl being buyable at the end of the game? They're buyable immediately after you get access to the Bonus Teams. Nergal sells all 4 types of Brave Weapons. From chatper 5, you can get every brave weapon easily.

The point was that, in a setting without spotpass shopping, awakening's handling of it isn't too bad unlike with nosferatu, which even without SP use it's still as early as chapter 13 and that's very spammable

Spotpass broke everything but it likely won't be the norm, especially since they didn't advertise HEY PAST FE CHARACTERS ARE FIGHTING FOR YOU AGAIN, from what I hear Nohr doesn't even have a free(ish) roaming world map

Edited April 6, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[goodperson707]

Okay thats awakening stuff were going into now.

So availability is one way to go but then you still have your endgame team decked with brave weapons instead of legendaries and though that is partially the forges problem and we are not sure it is returning, dual strikes are in the game and even if dual strike procs are half as much as last game braves still seem to be better in every aspect but range.

[ckc22]

What is this nonsense about Brave Weapons onl being buyable at the end of the game? They're buyable immediately after you get access to the Bonus Teams. Nergal sells all 4 types of Brave Weapons. From chatper 5, you can get every brave weapon easily.

This is DLC.

[Knusperkeks]

This is DLC.

No it's actually spotpass. All you need for that is a working wireless connection. You don't have to pay anything to download the bonus teams.

[Vascela]

Make spotpass teams unlock the farther you progress through the game. Have braves and Nos be unlocked much later in the game. This lets people have as many as they want late game, post game, and limits running around with forged effectives and nos by chapter 4.

[Dragrath]

hmm Braves are a bit tricky realistically A rank is best if there exists more than one copy the catch is letting braves be reforged and or bought. These weapons are honestly too strong for availability if they are purchasable it should only be endgame.

Personally I would have their be one of each with them being buyable on the final chapter only(no aryl buys from Anna ect. Just a scripted one of each either coming from a character, chest, village/house or enemy. This way they would be accessible for endgame content if such a thing returns but would otherwise be a one of a kind special weapon.

^^ could you not get them from merchant or double skirmishes though? Spotpass probably wont be coming back though but im surprised it wasn't mentioned as you can get a brave weapon as soon as you can use it.

yep I can confirm they can on my hard mode no grinding play through I got a brave axe soon after clearing chapter 6 no one could use it at the time but still a brave is a brave.

The point was that, in a setting without spotpass shopping, awakening's handling of it isn't too bad unlike with nosferatu, which even without SP use it's still as early as chapter 13 and that's very spammable

Spotpass broke everything but it likely won't be the norm, especially since they didn't advertise HEY PAST FE CHARACTERS ARE FIGHTING FOR YOU AGAIN, from what I hear Nohr doesn't even have a free(ish) roaming world map

yeah Nosferatu was the one bad apple in regards to availability if memory calls its always been a rare heavy high rank (usually A) weapon the awakening makes it a mass buyable D rank what?

Edited April 6, 2015 by Dragrath

[ckc22]

No it's actually spotpass. All you need for that is a working wireless connection. You don't have to pay anything to download the bonus teams.

Nothing about the term DLC denotes payment - in this case spotpass = free DLC.

[Nik]

IMO the biggest problem with Brave Weapons was that they overshadowed the Legendary ones: a millenia old legendary epic sword was in fact much weaker than a simple Brave you could buy (and forge!) at the chapter 24 shop. In my opinion brave weapons need a nerf, both in stats(Lower might, hit, and maybe higher Weight) and mechanics(not allowing too many dual strikes and so on). Or you could just buff legendary weapons to fe 4 levels to compensate

[ckc22]

IMO the biggest problem with Brave Weapons was that they overshadowed the Legendary ones: a millenia old legendary epic sword was in fact much weaker than a simple Brave you could buy (and forge!) at the chapter 24 shop. In my opinion brave weapons need a nerf, both in stats(Lower might, hit, and maybe higher Weight) and mechanics(not allowing too many dual strikes and so on). Or you could just buff legendary weapons to fe 4 levels to compensate

The brave weapons have c rank mt + 1. I feel like d rank +1 would be a much better formula. I personally think the hit is already low enough as it falls by 5 with each weapon rank. And I vehemently oppose the return of weight in any incarnation we've seen before.

I'm always for buffing others instead of nerfs - this is generally the way to keep the player base the happiest in most games.

[Nik]

I'm always for buffing others instead of nerfs - this is generally the way to keep the player base the happiest in most games.

It would be pretty hard to buff every other weapon to make it comparable with the fe 13 braves. But you might be right to just opt for a lowered mt.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Nik

[NeonZ]

Spotpass broke everything but it likely won't be the norm, especially since they didn't advertise HEY PAST FE CHARACTERS ARE FIGHTING FOR YOU AGAIN, from what I hear Nohr doesn't even have a free(ish) roaming world map

I think they only revealed the past character/spotpass stuff in Awakening when they made an overview trailer detailing most of the game's features

http://www.siliconera.com/2012/03/13/marth-returns-for-3ds-fire-emblem/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A3mAnZ40dgI

Regarding Nohr's lack of free roam, I'm pretty sure there'll be some way around that. I don't think they'd limit all DLC to the 2 other campaigns. Maybe it opens up after finishing the story.

Edited April 6, 2015 by NeonZ

[Jedi]

I'd like Braves to be A or S rank, considering we aren't likely to be getting weight back anytime soon.

What can I do with these Brave weapons at chapter 5 tho? Not to mention you just bankrupted your party.

Fredrick, Sully and Stahl all have discipline. Which doesn't make it too out there to get them to brave level (especially Fred).

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jedi

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

The support unit getting brave attacks out of their dual strikes is the most ludicrous thing about them, because of braves on top of braves. A step would probably be to prevent brave weaponry from attacking twice on a dual strike (although, really, dual strikes being stupidly powerful contributes to this, so with the apparent changes to them in FEif, maybe braves don't need to take as much of a hit here), instead, maybe having them set the dual strike chance to 100%.

And, of course, braves in the lead are a bit too powerful with procs. Each and every proc (especially Vengeance) is just plain way better with braves. Legendaries could probably be buffed match braves. Like, perhaps every legendary weapon could have an innate +30% to proc rate and +50% to the effect of a proc when it does go off (for Lethality, the increased effect could be replaced by making the innate proc increase something like +40%, instead). Alternatively, they could be given something special that braves don't get and braves start to see their damage diminish against: Dragonskin, Aegis(+) and Pavise(+). Make it so legendaries ignore all of those skills, which would play into their whole "single hit, big damage" schtick, which would hopefully make them desirable for postgame content. Another thing that might increase legendaries' utility compared to most brave weapons is to make them all have 1~2 range.

[Shadow Mir]

yeah Nosferatu was the one bad apple in regards to availability if memory calls its always been a rare heavy high rank (usually A) weapon the awakening makes it a mass buyable D rank what?

For the most part, Nosferatu was C rank or higher.

[Jedi]

The support unit getting brave attacks out of their dual strikes is the most ludicrous thing about them, because of braves on top of braves. A step would probably be to prevent brave weaponry from attacking twice on a dual strike (although, really, dual strikes being stupidly powerful contributes to this, so with the apparent changes to them in FEif, maybe braves don't need to take as much of a hit here), instead, maybe having them set the dual strike chance to 100%.

And, of course, braves in the lead are a bit too powerful with procs. Each and every proc (especially Vengeance) is just plain way better with braves. Legendaries could probably be buffed match braves. Like, perhaps every legendary weapon could have an innate +30% to proc rate and +50% to the effect of a proc when it does go off (for Lethality, the increased effect could be replaced by making the innate proc increase something like +40%, instead). Alternatively, they could be given something special that braves don't get and braves start to see their damage diminish against: Dragonskin, Aegis(+) and Pavise(+). Make it so legendaries ignore all of those skills, which would play into their whole "single hit, big damage" schtick, which would hopefully make them desirable for postgame content. Another thing that might increase legendaries' utility compared to most brave weapons is to make them all have 1~2 range.

I think that dual strike and guard should be limited to one time per combat. Although I did have an idea along with this concept that could make Generals a decent support unit. A Great Shield equivalent that allows multiple dual guards, but only generals can do. Like how Dark Mages were the only ones able to use Dark magic usually and if you changed classes you couldn't use it anymore.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jedi

[Nik]

I think that dual strike and guard should be limited to one time per combat. Although I did have an idea along with this concept that could make Generals a decent support unit. A Great Shield equivalent that allows multiple dual guards, but only generals can do. Like how Dark Mages were the only ones able to use Dark magic usually and if you changed classes you couldn't use it anymore.

This sounds perfect to me, also there's the bigger skill slot that might be related to class locked skills. Also swordmasters could have the double dual strike skill since they got nerfed.

[Shadow Mir]

Fredrick, Sully and Stahl all have discipline. Which doesn't make it too out there to get them to brave level (especially Fred).

True, though honestly, I wouldn't be splurging on braves that early in the game anyways, given that money is tight.

[Jedi]

This sounds perfect to me, also there's the bigger skill slot that might be related to class locked skills. Also swordmasters could have the double dual strike skill since they got nerfed.

I wouldn't mind Swordmasters getting that, it sounds like we can agree with this hopeful UPDATE to the Dual system, however I dno if IS has thought of it.

True, though honestly, I wouldn't be splurging on braves that early in the game anyways, given that money is tight.

This is a big money sink I'll agree.

[ckc22]

This sounds perfect to me, also there's the bigger skill slot that might be related to class locked skills. Also swordmasters could have the double dual strike skill since they got nerfed.

This is pretty much what I was getting at when I was mentioning changing the dualstrike mechanics associated with brave weapons in my first post.

The overpower comes less from brave inherently and more from the fact that you get a dualstrike chance on each hit (possibly out of four).

If you are being supported by someone who is also equipped with a brave you start getting an insane amount of hits on each turn.

Although this double dual strike thing will just become one of the most optimal options and every character who can will reclass for it in a grind playthrough just like you do for galeforce off of dark flier. - That is unless the big circle skill is class locked/character locked in which case this would go a long way to making Swordmaster useful if it had this as a class-locked skill.

[Aethin]

In light of the apparent no-durability system, they could make Braves have 1 or 2 might and 65ish accuracy, so despite getting extra attacks, you have to rely heavily on the character's Str and Skl to use them effectively.

[Awakener_]

In light of the apparent no-durability system, they could make Braves have 1 or 2 might and 65ish accuracy, so despite getting extra attacks, you have to rely heavily on the character's Str and Skl to use them effectively.

In compensation drop the price to around 500-800 golds and make it c rank. Available early.

[Gradivus.]

I like an FE12-esque way to handle braves; availability wrt both number of copies and obtaining point is low-ish, while they don't trivialize the maps they exist in, but still are nice in various ways (granted, Brave Lance is the best of them while Brave Sword and Brave Bow give decent offense, and Brave Axe is largely unuseful). I disagree on low Mt, that would only be beneficial for a nerf if FE13's stat emblem would return in if. Just give them decent Mt imo.

[Jedi]

I like an FE12-esque way to handle braves; availability wrt both number of copies and obtaining point is low-ish, while they don't trivialize the maps they exist in, but still are nice in various ways (granted, Brave Lance is the best of them while Brave Sword and Brave Bow give decent offense, and Brave Axe is largely unuseful). I disagree on low Mt, that would only be beneficial for a nerf if FE13's stat emblem would return in if. Just give them decent Mt imo.

I honestly think FE12 did Braves best too.

[NekoKnight]

Endgame purchase for Braves like in Awakening is reasonable.

You are assuming everyone had purchase the DLCs to have enough golds to change class to use dark magic and to buy Brave weapons.

I didn't mean that literally EVERYONE would use those weapons, just that having them purchasable makes a lot of other weapons pointless to use. Gold isn't hard to acquire in game. My point reflects a general design philosophy that availability is a much better balance to weapons than nerfing stats. Brave Weapons had reasonable availability in Awakening but a ton of powerful weapons were easy to purchase.

[BrightBow]

They should be handled like TRS Gatling Bows: In exchange for their offense parameters, they should get so much weight that they leave you wide open if you miss your chance. Otherwise, they will inevitable end up overshadowing everything else in the arsenal.