Overrated Units

[Refa]

Pre-Promotes in general now. I remember when people used to not like them a ton, but now people praise pre-promotes a bit too much at moments and fault growth units in the most bizarre ways. For instance, Hawkeye not being bad doesn't somehow make Dart this absolutely abysmal unit to use. Sure, the Ocean Seal is a huge fundings hit, but most people don't even play for ranked, so how is this a problem outside of finding the seal in the desert? And why can't I want to use two berserkers? Ugh. Yeah, it kinda bothers me.

The problem is that selling the Ocean Seal is a free 25k, and you happen to get one on the same chapter where you get a perfectly serviceable Berserker (arguably more than that, what with Hawkeye's defensive stats being ridiculous).

Edited May 25, 2015 by Refa

[momogeek2141]

Pre-Promotes in general now. I remember when people used to not like them a ton, but now people praise pre-promotes a bit too much at moments and fault growth units in the most bizarre ways. For instance, Hawkeye not being bad doesn't somehow make Dart this absolutely abysmal unit to use. Sure, the Ocean Seal is a huge fundings hit, but most people don't even play for ranked, so how is this a problem outside of finding the seal in the desert? And why can't I want to use two berserkers? Ugh. Yeah, it kinda bothers me.

No one is saying that Dart is trash. I agree that you can't downgrade a unit because another exists, like you can't downgrade Edward for Zihark existing, but nobody is doing that. Dart's a good unit, some people just find it easier to have Hawkeye do stuff and sell the seal for money, which is perfectly serviceable.

[Florete]

Sumia might just be the most polarizing unit since well, ever. Either you think she's top 5 or bleh. Though an average 10/1 Sumia + S Chrom support pulls like 30-40% displayed from most enemy types for quite a while. Barbs and Fighters end up with like 10-20%. It's a bit of a gamble, but facing low hit rates while being 2-3HKO'd is still pretty "durable".

Real talk: I said it before sort of as a joke, but if I were to call any character in FE overrated, it would be Sumia, mainly because people say she's better than Cordelia and I don't see how that's possible.

is Calil overrated in 10? i can't remember but i vaguely recall people saying she's more useful then sanaki, who at least forced so they don't take up a slot. unless she gets double transfers i'm not seeing her as any better then the typical magic user in that game, which isn't very high overall in the first place.

Depends how one plays. Calill has the best long-term potential of the magic users in RD, but by the very fact that she's a magic user in RD, that isn't saying a whole lot. I would definitely rank her higher than Sanaki in non-Hard mode, though. I think unit slots are numerous enough such that they are not that valuable in RD, especially by the time Sanaki shows up.

[Ownagepuffs]

that is true, heck in my comments i rarely discuss character personality, hell in soren's i said i LIKED his personality, but i kept getting bad sorens.

is Calil overrated in 10? i can't remember but i vaguely recall people saying she's more useful then sanaki, who at least forced so they don't take up a slot. unless she gets double transfers i'm not seeing her as any better then the typical magic user in that game, which isn't very high overall in the first place.

Calill is actually a little useful in RD. Haven't seen too many people sing praises about her as a unit. As a character she's awesome.

Real talk: I said it before sort of as a joke, but if I were to call any character in FE overrated, it would be Sumia, mainly because people say she's better than Cordelia and I don't see how that's possible.

Availability! And the potential Chrom support. They are both the best gen 1 units aside from Robin anyway. Imagine if Farina switched join times with Fiora. Florina would still be the better unit. Obviously you don't need this type of comparison since you've been around the block for mad years, but it is to illustrate my point. Availability means a bit more in Awakening because while Cordelia will have better offensive parameters, Sumia has had a few more chapters (and a paralogue) to build support. Sumia's practical offense will be better via higher dual strike % and higher stat boosts from pair up.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Loki Laufeyson]

that is true, heck in my comments i rarely discuss character personality, hell in soren's i said i LIKED his personality, but i kept getting bad sorens.

is Calil overrated in 10? i can't remember but i vaguely recall people saying she's more useful then sanaki, who at least forced so they don't take up a slot. unless she gets double transfers i'm not seeing her as any better then the typical magic user in that game, which isn't very high overall in the first place.

I think Soren is only hyped in FE9. In FE10, he has problems and a lot of them. Without a lot of love, hes going to drag ass pretty hard.

Given how shitty mages are in FE10, Calill is probably the better one (that doesnt require the resources Soren does). But really, i dont think shes overrated or underrated. When Calill exists, she does contribute quite a bit and really only needs Paragon to keep up. IMO, she is more useful than Sanaki.

Ehh, the only thing i feel Cordelia has over Sumia is reclass options but even then, GK!Sumia is pretty cool sometimes. Personally, i think people like Sumia more because of her pairings and she has the sweeter daughter.

[Florete]

Availability! And the potential Chrom support. They are both the best gen 1 units aside from Robin anyway. Imagine if Farina switched join times with Fiora. Florina would still be the better unit. Obviously you don't need this type of comparison since you've been around the block for mad years, but it is to illustrate my point. Availability means a bit more in Awakening because while Cordelia will have better offensive parameters, Sumia has had a few more chapters (and a paralogue) to build support. Sumia's practical offense will be better via higher dual strike % and higher stat boosts from pair up.

Availability is nice, but Cordelia is still around for a good 76% of the game and statistically smashes Sumia. And Cordelia's extra load of support options more than beats out a potential Chrom support (which doesn't even give what Sumia needs).

Basically, Sumia has her few extra chapters, and may be a bit better than Cordelia when she arrives, but Cordelia will pass her up quickly and just expand the lead to the end.

Ehh, the only thing i feel Cordelia has over Sumia is reclass options but even then, GK!Sumia is pretty cool sometimes. Personally, i think people like Sumia more because of her pairings and she has the sweeter daughter.

I agree for sure that Cynthia > Severa.

[Ownagepuffs]

Thing is, Sumia can have an S with Chrom (or whoever) by the time Cordy shows up. Hard as it might be to believe, Chrom gives Sumia exactly what she needs. Not only is he one of the game's best units, but he perfectly supplements her avoid with Spd/Luk and Charm. Dual strike+ is better than a lot of skills, and does wonders for the offense of whoever is paired with Chrom. When Sumia has like 80% dual strike, Cordelia is still looking for a husband. By the time Cordy catches up, Sumia still has her offensive lead because Sumia can actually pick up tomes no problem. Also lances are awesome in part 2 because beastkillers! Neither has an offensive lead when beastkillers 2HKO a majority of enemies in the coming maps.

[Elieson]

Thing is, Sumia can have an S with Chrom (or whoever) by the time Cordy shows up. Hard as it might be to believe, Chrom gives Sumia exactly what she needs. Not only is he one of the game's best units, but he perfectly supplements her avoid with Spd/Luk and Charm. Dual strike+ is better than a lot of skills, and does wonders for the offense of whoever is paired with Chrom. When Sumia has like 80% dual strike, Cordelia is still looking for a husband. By the time Cordy catches up, Sumia still has her offensive lead because Sumia can actually pick up tomes no problem. Also lances are awesome in part 2 because beastkillers! Neither has an offensive lead when beastkillers 2HKO a majority of enemies in the coming maps.

Chrom gives her DualAttack+ which is nice, and the high support rate just encourages that. The bonuses he gives Sumia are not needed bar a few instances in the early game. If anything, Sumia gives Chrom everything he needs, while Chrom gives Sumia everything she wants. Fred gives her the stats that she needs.

[-Cynthia-]

I find neither Sumia or Cordelia cut it as combat units in Lunatic without a lot of babying, but they both have utility (Sumia supports and ferries Fred, Cordelia is the most efficient Rally Speed option).

[Carmine Sword]

Fred and Sumia work well together on Hard Mode, but on Lunatic(+), even Sumia needs a speed pair-up in order to consistently double enemies, and Chrom lets her do that. Consistant doubling and Dual Strike+ will let Sumia get more kills than Fred's strength boost would on Lunatic.

[Augestein]

No one is saying that Dart is trash. I agree that you can't downgrade a unit because another exists, like you can't downgrade Edward for Zihark existing, but nobody is doing that. Dart's a good unit, some people just find it easier to have Hawkeye do stuff and sell the seal for money, which is perfectly serviceable.

That was merely an example. What I mean is stuff like Ross versus Garcia. Ross isn't bad because Garcia exists, Ross should be bad on his own terms. Whether you're selling it or not, it shouldn't be "Dart isn't worth using because Hawkeye exists." It should be "Dart isn't worth using because the Ocean Seal is 25k that you could sell it for." This could go on and on.

[Jedi]

That was merely an example. What I mean is stuff like Ross versus Garcia. Ross isn't bad because Garcia exists, Ross should be bad on his own terms. Whether you're selling it or not, it shouldn't be "Dart isn't worth using because Hawkeye exists." It should be "Dart isn't worth using because the Ocean Seal is 25k that you could sell it for." This could go on and on.

Well this is the same argument people use for a good chunk of FE6's units. Such as Rutger vs Fir when both are solid even on hard mode, Sue and Shin are another case of this (although most people just use both, because you get really good snipers over the meh archers anyways), FE6 forces you to choose due to its limited promotion items though, and thus with more avaliblity and such. People call Fir bad simply because she isn't Rutger.

[momogeek2141]

That's bad arguing though. Fir has poor availability, Sue has poor strength. Although it's hard to determine units as good or bad without comparing them to others. People honestly use both arguments in order to strengthen their position. I've done it myself, back when that one person insisted that Meg was a good unit worth using over other DB units. It really is hard to decide how it should be argued. That's when deciding whether a unit is worth using though. When it comes to deciding if individual units are good units, like Fir alone, she's solid, and you definitely cannot underrate her for other units existing.

Edited May 26, 2015 by momogeek2141

[Florete]

Thing is, Sumia can have an S with Chrom (or whoever) by the time Cordy shows up.

Um, no. That is literally impossible without grinding. Sumia has 5 maps before Cordelia shows up. At absolute best, she can have just gotten an A support.

Hard as it might be to believe, Chrom gives Sumia exactly what she needs.

He doesn't give Str or Def, so...no, he doesn't?

Dual strike+ is better than a lot of skills, and does wonders for the offense of whoever is paired with Chrom. When Sumia has like 80% dual strike, Cordelia is still looking for a husband. By the time Cordy catches up, Sumia still has her offensive lead because Sumia can actually pick up tomes no problem. Also lances are awesome in part 2 because beastkillers! Neither has an offensive lead when beastkillers 2HKO a majority of enemies in the coming maps.

Dual Strike+ is good, but I don't really see why it's being hyped up so much. Cordelia is still going to have a high dual strike rate with her husband, and since she actually has Str of her own, she probably only needs one dual strike from her partner, if even that, to kill most enemies, while Sumia will need it twice more often, giving her lower kill rates overall.

And then the underlying problem I have with your post here is how specific it is, because it sounds like Sumia needs Chrom to function. What if she doesn't get Chrom? Chrom certainly has better options than her (F!Robin and Sully). I personally think Frederick is a better option for her anyway, but Cordelia has every other male option in the game to cover whatever you think she needs. If you wish it, she also has actually good reclass options.

Maybe, just maybe, in very specific, bottle-necked runs, Sumia can eek out a win. But Cordelia is so much more flexible and dependable that she should be better for 95% of players.

[Knight]

Strictly gameplay-wise: Marcus, Sirius, Minerva, Mia, Marisa (not even sure if she's overrated), Sumia, Caeda (I never get good Caedas...).

I won't talk about personality since it's purely subjective. I have characters I like and characters I don't like.

[KMT4ever]

Looking at growths Sumia is objectively worse than Cordelia when alone, but given how overpowered supports are in Awakening Sumia can get quite a power boost from Dual Strikes, which is really all she needs to match/surpass Cordelia thanks to superior Speed and Luck making her a dodge-tank. Overall I'd say the two are basically equal, but take that with a grain of salt since so far all of my Cordelias have been below average.

As for Calill, her horrible availability kills her for me. By the time she joins the Greil Mercenaries she's been available for 2 levels while Soren has been available for 9 while starting off only one level lower. At that point when I play he's nearly an Archsage already because of how useful he is killing generals and dealing a ton of damage to swordmasters. I can see her being better than Sanaki given how annoying it is to get the empress started, but she's definitely not better than Soren.

[Ownagepuffs]

Um, no. That is literally impossible without grinding. Sumia has 5 maps before Cordelia shows up. At absolute best, she can have just gotten an A support.

you shouldn't underestimate how fast their support builds. They have the fastest support type. They can be S by C8 easily. They can be C by C4, seed of trust brings that to B within one chapter, then they have 3 chapters and 2 paralogues to get married.

He doesn't give Str or Def, so...no, he doesn't?

not quite that simple. Her Str is fine once she hits C lances. Ephraim's lance is an 11 Mt Lance that gives +2 Str/Spd. Chrom's +Spd puts her in a comfortable position to consistently double in a way that Fred doesn't. She just needs to reach 2HKO status, as no amount of +Def will give her enough durability to reach 3HKO status in the early game. Seraph Robe + Defense tonic handles that. She can also use Finn's lance at base, which has 8 Mt and gives +2 Def (spotpass lances are REALLY good). Post promotion, her insanely high innate avo gets further boosted by Chrom's +Spd/Luk, pair up, and Charm. Surprisingly enough, Chrom's the highest avo booster in the game. Low hit rates + 2-3HKO status does more for her than any of her other potential suitors

Dual Strike+ is good, but I don't really see why it's being hyped up so much. Cordelia is still going to have a high dual strike rate with her husband, and since she actually has Str of her own, she probably only needs one dual strike from her partner, if even that, to kill most enemies, while Sumia will need it twice more often, giving her lower kill rates overall.

considering that 1% ds = 4 skl, DS+ saves you 40 skl to get the same result. The difference between something like 45% and 55% DS is noticeable early on, and they pull around 76-80 by C8 which lets Sumia do some crazy shit like reliably ORKOing Myrmidons from 2 range. Cordelia will not be able to match that with anyone when she first joins. Her offense will be worse. Dual strikes go up 10% per support level. Even at a B support with her husband to be, her DS rate will still be a whopping 30% lower than Sumia (20 if not Chrom). Non mage enemies have high enough HP counts for this to matter. She will struggle to ORKO early on while Sumia now has a good enough support rank to consistently ORKO. By the time Cordelia closes the support gap (C11 or so), Sumia has probably promoted to get galeforce for Lucina and is still beating her.

And then the underlying problem I have with your post here is how specific it is, because it sounds like Sumia needs Chrom to function. What if she doesn't get Chrom? Chrom certainly has better options than her (F!Robin and Sully). I personally think Frederick is a better option for her anyway, but Cordelia has every other male option in the game to cover whatever you think she needs. If you wish it, she also has actually good reclass options.Maybe, just maybe, in very specific, bottle-necked runs, Sumia can eek out a win. But Cordelia is so much more flexible and dependable that she should be better for 95% of players.

then 95% of players need to git gud . I don't mind conceding that Robin is Chrom's best wife, and that Sumia brings out the best of Fred (who doesn't love Fred?). But Chrom brings out the best of Sumia in more ways than 1. Frederick cannot provide the sort of snowballing potential for her than Chrom can, and Sully produces a less potent child duo (Chrom!Cynthia and Sumia!Lucina are 2 galeforce units. Cynthia flies at base, Kjelle has 4 mov). Also, the +Spd from Sumia gives Chrom a much easier time getting in shape to double Wyverns in C5 and C7, which is his main claim to fame early on. Chromia is pretty much the 2nd strongest in game pairing after Chrobin, and is the go to choice if you're doing a male Robin run (with Cordelia x Robin being Robin's best choice). I can point you to a Lunatic+ run that makes the most out of both Sumia and Cordelia for you to see what I mean. Also, reclassing doesn't matter as much for Sumia because Dark Flier is such a stupidly powerful class. 8 flying mov, targets resistance (enemy res is really bad), and enough AS to double like everything.

Caeda (I never get good Caedas...).

Did you forge +9001 Mt to the wing spear? Edited May 26, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[momogeek2141]

Yeah, I don't feel Caeda is overrated, she carried my team in H5 until Abel became a useful unit.

[Florete]

Yeah, I could respond point-by-point, but I've said what matters most: Sumia relies on very specific strategies to maybe be better (I still think Cordelia is better as soon as she gets an A support regardless of whatever Sumia gets, and steamrolls her for the rest of the game). Cordelia is way more flexible and not so susceptible to RNG screwage. One situation (one that arguably isn't even the most optimal) isn't enough to make Sumia a superior unit overall.

[The Geek]

While I may not be able to really judge as I only played each of the Tellius games once, I wasn't too impressed by Mia and Nepheenee. They could dodge tank to a decent degree, but they had low STR and by endgame were only doing scratch damage to enemies. I have the same problem with Lyn in FE7 (which I have played multiple times).

[Refa]

That was merely an example. What I mean is stuff like Ross versus Garcia. Ross isn't bad because Garcia exists, Ross should be bad on his own terms. Whether you're selling it or not, it shouldn't be "Dart isn't worth using because Hawkeye exists." It should be "Dart isn't worth using because the Ocean Seal is 25k that you could sell it for." This could go on and on.

Characters don't exist in a vacuum, you know.

[Chiki]

Looking at growths Sumia is objectively worse than Cordelia when alone, but given how overpowered supports are in Awakening Sumia can get quite a power boost from Dual Strikes, which is really all she needs to match/surpass Cordelia thanks to superior Speed and Luck making her a dodge-tank. Overall I'd say the two are basically equal, but take that with a grain of salt since so far all of my Cordelias have been below average.

Sumia is completely uncontroversially better than Cordelia. The growths arguments are irrelevant because supports and Tonics exist. First and foremost, Sumia has more availability (she's actually around in chapters where Cordelia isn't). Second, Sumia will already have a Frederick support established by the time Cordelia comes. Third, Strength and Defense Tonics exist to alleviate that flaw. I don't even know why this is being discussed.

[Carmine Sword]

Exactly. Given the quoted example, Ross may be bad because of reasons that have nothing to do with Garcia, such as his growths and bases, but the existence of a unit very similar to Ross that exists at the same time and can do what Ross does, but better in most cases, makes Ross comparatively worse. Not using a unit because another unit can do the same job with less effort/resources/etc. is a perfectly valid thought process.

EDIT: Oops. I didn't see Chiki's post since I have him on ignore. I was responding to Refa's post.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Carmine Sword

[Chiki]

EDIT: Oops. I didn't see Chiki's post since I have him on ignore. I was responding to Refa's post.

LOL I don't even know who you are.

Tharja has 13 base speed. That's the difference between doubling soldiers and barbs in the next chapter to get her going and not doubling them. She has 2 auras at base that amount to +25 hit. She is significantly better than Henry, because Henry's base speed is irredeemable at the point you get him. I can forge +Hit. I cannot forge +Spd.

everyone saying Sumia needs to git gud pls

Anyway, I spend a lot of time at the fire emblem subreddit these days. Nephenee is still overrated after all these years. Female myrmidons as usual (except RD Mia, she really is that good). Lowen too. That's all I can think of. Other characters that are stated to be good have rightfully deserved it (Florina, Titania). MoogleBoss's FE9 0% growths is more or less proof of how ridiculous base level Titania is.

For the record, these are not characters "I don't like". That accusation is silly. I actually like these characters, but statements about their performance relative to their actual performance is disproportionately positive... Aka overrated.

Nephenee can take Soren's place with the Vantage scroll in FE9 Chapter 25 and 27, that counts for something.

[dondon151]

Caeda (I never get good Caedas...)

the whole point of caeda is that she starts out good and doesn't need any growth whatsoever to stay good