Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

[omega zero]

SnK has a canon lesbian relationship? That's not the vibe I got out of the manga. Perhaps it is hinted/teased at, but canon?

[Inquisitor Lavellan]

SnK has a canon lesbian relationship? That's not the vibe I got out of the manga. Perhaps it is hinted/teased at, but canon?

Ymir has been confirmed to be in love with Krista for a very long time and back when Season 2 was announced they also revealed that Krista felt the same way for Ymir. They haven't had a chance to actually become a canon couple but they are both in love with each other. The fans take it as canon since they act like a couple. So they have canon lesbians but no canon lesbian relationship yet.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Yotsume

[exizel]

I don't know for other people but for me it's not about the fact I can't be gay in the game but more about the fact than I have to be straight.

People don't like to see in video game aspect of themselves or their lives that they don't like because video game is all about escapism( it's not about what you want to be but more about what you don't want to be) and in a game where you can choose your sex and how you look but you have to be straight remind me of social pression that want you to be "normal"(the aspect of my life I don't want to be remind of in a vidéo game).

it doesn't help that the japanese developer know the interest in gay relationship but only put teasing to attract yaoi fangirl.(the tales of series do the same because they got a big female fanbase and that part of the fanbase bought a lot of goodies).

In a game where the main character is straight because his relationship with a girl is important I don't mind at all(it will only bother me is the straight aspect is only use has a form of power fantasy) I can play those game and enjoy them without any problem.

and adrienne shan's study is about how you feel when you play but the problem we have with the straight only aspect is a social issue not a gaming one.

Personaly I always thought that the day media had diversity in its MC people will stop caring about it. (both straight and LGBT).

[Fugishane]

I don't really see a reason not to support it. Adding it in would make a huge difference to a lot of players and people who for some reason take issue with it are not instantly forced to watch same sex relationships play out. It's similar to the uproar over the inclusion of phoenix mode, a completely optional mode that didn't take anything away from the series, only added to the game for others.

In a roster of around 40 characters I don't think it would be too difficult to add 1 homosexual and 1 bisexual character for each gender. Let's face it though, the entire media industry and especially video games still struggle with diversity in all forms, whether that be race, gender or sexuality, and I still feel we're a long way off seeing progress in games.

The argument that annoys me the most is that including it will upset people who want to pair with a certain character but can't because of their sexuality. Well welcome to real life, where unfortunately sometimes gay people fall for straight people and straight people sometimes fall for gay people. Not everyone you're attracted to is going to reciprocate your feelings, that's something people have got to deal with.

And for those who are so bothered by the mere inclusion of a non-heterosexual character, just let them die in battle and then you can go back to playing in your heterosexual bubble.

[Crooks]

Why is it so hard to not play as something I'm not in video games? I just want to play a video game where people like me exist. Especially since there was a fuckton of romantic implication in same-sex interactions in Awakening. Even two confirmed same-sex crushes!

[Ema Skye]

Why do you need to play as someone that represents you in video games?

You're not Mario. You're not Link. You're not Ezio. You're not Marth. Why do you need to be Kamui?

Considering he's got the ability to turn into a dragon, I'd say that he's not supposed to represent you at all.

though if you can transform into a dragon, i've got some people who'd love to meet you

[Esme]

Why not?

It's the laziest thing to do imo.

EDIT -- To the user above me, it's because the point of MU and Kamui (Corrin) is to be a self-insert. You get to customize his or her gender, age, looks, class, their strong and weak points as far as stats go and even the person with whom they end up with for the rest of their lives. When you give the player that much control over a character, why can't you let them control whether or not their lover is a man or a woman?

Honestly, this is why I don't like self-insert characters. They cause too many complications.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Esme

[Nanima]

Why do you need to play as someone that represents you in video games?

You're not Mario. You're not Link. You're not Ezio. You're not Marth. Why do you need to be Kamui?

Considering he's got the ability to turn into a dragon, I'd say that he's not supposed to represent you at all.

though if you can transform into a dragon, i've got some people who'd love to meet you

Because Kamui is our avatar.

We control almost everything abouth them. Their name, their gender, the way they look and sound. Kamui is the audience surrogate, it kind of come with being an avatar. We are meant to see the world through their eyes.

You may not do this, but many people want their avatar to be as close to themselves as possible. If you look into the naming thread you will even find people who want to name Kamui after themselves.

So there are evidently a number of people who want an avatar to be a representation of themselves.

And they totally can..so long as they are straight.

You can choose if and who to marry, but god forbid they share your gender. That is just too much choice apparently.

[EJ107]

The Avatars are basically pre-defined characters that you can change the appearance and name of though. Their personalities and support conversations are already set. It's why I don't particularly care about Kamui's S-support options more than anyone else's.

It's not having any same gender S supports throughout the entire cast that is the issue for me. I loved shipping characters with each other in Awkaneing, but I hated how they could be paired with almost every unit of the opposite gender but none of the same.

[Fuzzlekins]

As much as I would love there to be same sex S-support, I honestly don't expect it to happen any time soon. Even before children were confirmed I never really believed that it would happen, but if it did happen I would be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but even though there are many people out there who would want it, including myself, there's also a lot of homophobic people, so I think IS isn't going to take the risk and scare off potential buyers. The majority of their consumer base is straight people, so they're gonna market to straight people. That's just how it is. :/

Really my expectations for video games having diversity in that regard is pretty low because otherwise I would just be constantly let down.

[Florete]

I don't understand why people keep talking like including a couple potential gay options would "scare off" consumers. This isn't the 50s, public acceptance is much higher than it used to be, and including these options doesn't mean they need to market them. People who don't care for them will largely just ignore them. Plenty of media has been more inclusive these days, including video games, and BioWare and Bethesda appear to still be doing fine financially.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

speaking of bioware, i still find it amusing that Shepard could be gay since mass effect one, BUT only as a female, which is reaalllllyyy awkward cause you'd think they'd allow you to do it with both genders, but the stranger part is noone really batted an eyelash at it . then EA bought them and suddenly male Shepard being gay in ME3 was a big deal, despite that its just equalizing what was already done in ME1. (a big deal as in people's reactions to it, they were like YOU CAN'T DO IT IT SUCKS, when in ME1 no one really gave a damn and actually supported female shepard and Liara)

just some amusing double standards here in gaming, it seems that no one cares about lesbians or they actually support them at that time, but homosexual men? that gets all the attention and none of the support.

Edited June 20, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Nanima]

It's because the gaming community was and still is predominently made up of males in their teens. This has changed in recent years, but it's still mostly the case.

It basically boils down to:

Lesbians= hot (because two women and threesome fantasies)

Gays= disgusting (because insecurity problems)

Thankfully things seem to slowly get better, though I wish it would be faster..

[exizel]

Actually they were complain about the lack of gay male option since the first game and someone who work for bioware say that shepard wasn't gay and that Liara didn't count because she wasn't a female(while the game's codex says that she was)

and just after that they had a lesbians option with a "real woman" in the ME2........I let you guys guess how people react to that after they decide to add male gay relationship in the 3.

but yeah the shepard isn't gay thing is still funny.

[Crooks]

Actually they were complain about the lack of gay male option since the first game and someone who work for bioware say that shepard wasn't gay and that Liara didn't count because she wasn't a female(while the game's codex says that she was)

and just after that they had a lesbians option with a "real woman" in the ME2........I let you guys guess how people react to that after they decide to add male gay relationship in the 3.

but yeah the shepard isn't gay thing is still funny.

She both is and isn't. As a member of a race with only one sex, there is no biological "male" or "female". There just IS. If they were secluded, they probably wouldn't have a concept of gender. However, the rest of the races use a male/female sex dichotomy, and being a very... Involved race... They know of this.

Of course this follows the notion that all men have dicks and all women have vaginas and boobs. This could've been better addressed, because the asari seem to both follow and not follow the idea of being "women".

Also, yeah, if you play as a fem!Shep you get 5 'female' LI's by the third game... Not counting the sexual encounters you can have (Shiala). I think it's because, since the gaming industry aims for at men than women (despite 45% of gamers being female), so... Lesbians, to straight guys, are seen as hot. Gay guys are seen as gross predators.

But Dorian, in Dragon Age, made many straight guys less homophobic in that respect. They were allured by his personality and though they weren't legitimately attracted to him, they still fell in love with him - and their character being in love with him.

I'm getting off topic, but having gay characters won't go as badly as you think. You'll get some whiners but it does much more good than harm.

EDIT: to clarify I use "you" as a general term referring to the audience - not just the user I quoted. English doesn't really have a "you all" term besides for y'all, which isn't grammatically accepted...

Edited June 20, 2015 by Crooks

[4Dam PKMN Master Nappa]

I think there should be without a doubt LGBT characters in Fates.

Fates' big thing is supposed to be choice. So give the players the ability to choose to attempt and pursue romantic relationships with any member of the cast.

This doesn't mean that every character has to reciprocate just because you hit S-rank. (One of the things that always kind of bothered me in Awakening is that some of the pairings weren't believable: Lon'qu in general, Cordelia in general, Nowi in general but for different reasons).

This doesn't even have to be because some characters are heterosexual or homosexual and the proposed partner doesn't fit the bill. Maybe there's a character that is asexual and if you attempt to pursue a romantic relationship with them they turn you down and introduces an awkwardness to the relationship (it's not like this is impossible: there were multiple conversations per Support rank in PoR depending on when the conversation happened). Perhaps said character can only be romanced if you let them introduce the idea to your relationship.

Heather was a lesbian in FE10 and this was neither hidden nor ever really explored. No one chastises her in-universe for it but neither does anyone explicitly reciprocate or even remark on it. Maybe you can have a male Corrin reach an S-support with a lesbian woman and they have a child - but it's only because she wants to be a mother and there's nothing in the relationship beyond friendship. Maybe you have a character who is infertile and instead adopts a child. I don't want every single pairing in the game to require Man X Woman -> Baby. Have some characters who can be romanced by Corrin of either gender, who can never be romanced by Corrin, who can only romanced by Corrin, who can only be romanced after a certain story event, who can only be romanced before a certain story event, who can never have children, who will always have children, who can only have children if very odd and specific conditions are met. The cast of Fire Emblem has always been diverse in personality and motivation and it disappoints me that the romantic and erotic goals and choices of its cast in FE14 don't seem to be equally diverse.

@Crooks: I agree. I haven't actually touched Inquisition for myself (I'm still playing Origins which is a long game) but from what I've seen of others in Inquisition Dorian Pavus is a really good model of a likable homosexual male romance option. There's no reason there can't be one or two characters who do that in a game where there's actually 60 something named people who are running around other than apathy or disdain.

Hell, maybe in a homosexual pairing Felicia/Jakob will offer the role of foster parent to Corrin and their beloved?

Edited June 20, 2015 by 4Dam PKMN Master Nappa

[Tryhard]

The cast of Fire Emblem has always been diverse in personality and motivation and it disappoints me that the romantic and erotic goals and choices of its cast in FE14 don't seem to be equally diverse.

To be fair, have any of the games aside from Heather and Ike/Soren been diverse in sexuality previously, and has that been a problem for previous Fire Emblem games?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

To be fair, have any of the games aside from Heather and Ike/Soren been diverse in sexuality previously, and has that been a problem for previous Fire Emblem games?

i don't think so, heck Legualt was a huge tease to both genders in his dialogue and not too many people gave him shit.

[Kieranosaurus]

I'm gay so I would be quite delighted. I'm quite doubtful anything of the sort would happen. I would even settle for an S-Rank "Best Friends For Life" title.

But, it's not really that bad playing the "If I were remotely straight and this avatar is somewhat representing me, who would I want this kind of me to marry?" game.

I could always play as the female avatar (thank goodness they exist) but I really do like playing as the male avatar.
He is some representation of me after all.

Anyway, I know the "Everyone is bi" is highly unrealistic but the S-Rank romance conversations from Awakening were really random and sudden anyway.

I just don't see what would be so different if those of the same sex got some really random S-Rank romantic conversation either. I don't mind.

Some said that they wouldn't mind as long as they were well-written gay characters. I don't want their sexual orientation to be a big part of their character at all.

Although some positive representation of the LGBT community would be cool, it's not really what I look for in games like these unless they were just that great.

I just want to my avatar to marry the guy while the support convo is about puppies or something.

I kinda just rambled my thoughts but I wanted to get them out there.

[4Dam PKMN Master Nappa]

To be fair, have any of the games aside from Heather and Ike/Soren been diverse in sexuality previously, and has that been a problem for previous Fire Emblem games?

"Have any of the games aside from Heather and Ike/Soren been diverse in sexuality previously?"

Not that I am aware of, no.

"Has that been a problem for previous Fire Emblem games?"

For me personally or more generally?

Until recently games in the series didn't have self-insert characters.

My post is admittedly a lot of a reaction to Awakening, because Awakening is 1) The newest game for comparison 2) "The Most Similar" and 3) The Most "Mainstream" game of the series. But it's also the chief violator for me.

The only international games with Self-insert characters are FE7 and FE13. The Tactician's role in 7 is laughable and really the only thing that mattered was your character's name and your role was hilariously unimportant past the beginning of Eliwood/Hector's story. I don't recall anybody being able to "choose" an ending or anything in 7. Sexual orientation and romance weren't relevant to you, the tactician in service of Lyn/Eliwood/Hector. Your job and goal has battle tactics.

The lack of a romance-able LGBT characters in a game with a self-insert character is my problem. It is a problem in Awakening for me. FE12 doesn't really have this issue because it was never released internationally. I wouldn't be able to understand it without the localization and FE1-6 get that pass for me because they don't have self-insert characters, I can't understand them without translation, and they are coming from a different era of gaming. I would have never called out IS for skipping it because I was 1) Two separated gametes 2) a Fetus, 3) At most 9 years old and very definitely not paying attention to any romance plots.

As for 7 through 10, 9 and 10 definitely do have some attempts, 8 has Twincest subtexts (YMMV) but otherwise nothing that I recall and 7 has Legault I guess.

But for a brand new game with a My Unit character after the Tomadachi life backlash? I will definitely be disappointed in IS. I don't care if there is finally a game that has a fictional character with my name with my spelling, I think it is an issue. I know for a fact that there are people who like to play themselves in their games and preventing them for doing that (when you're telling them that it's one of the entire points of the game) by giving them absolutely no option or choice to do so is alarming.

That is why I am throwing Awakening under the bus here. Romance is a mechanic in FE13 but it's very "white-bread" in what actually happens. The only Male x Female pairing that wound up as anything other than husband and wife was Lucina x Owain and that's because they were related and they didn't want to bark up that tree again.

Edited June 20, 2015 by 4Dam PKMN Master Nappa

[Crooks]

Also there's a "t" in the title so...

What are the odds, you think, of a transgender character in an FE game? I'm thinking low, 'cause Nintendo only has ever had two transgender characters and only one has been in more than one game... And is handled poorly, addressed as male in Japan (Birdo/Birdette yo). The other character (Vivienne) was handled seriously and her gender identity wasn't major and dealt with in a tear jerking way (her sisters finally accepting her as a woman post-game). This was erased from the English version.

I'm transgender. I'm curious what others opinions are.

[Tryhard]

"Has that been a problem for previous Fire Emblem games?"

For me personally or more generally?

I meant more like - it wasn't an issue before, why is it an issue now?

The rest of your post went over this, so yeah.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Tryhard

[Mad_Scientist]

Okay, away for a bit, so somewhat long response coming in.

God, I am more annoyed by the constant whining than whole LGBT in game thing and then peoples started to post those mopey ass posts about hiding and crap (I can also write a essay of having to hiding myself because of a choice I made as well and that choice will be even weirder than loving someone of same sex to the eyes of a lot of people.). Just friggin wait, there will be same sex marriage eventually in the game. Hell the only game in my life that I played that has a Chinese protagonist is GTA ChinaTown War and I'm sure LGBT representation in gaming alone already surpassed that of my race representation in all media combined even if we are around the same population size here in the state. I also have to give props to mods for not censoring or deleting anything when many other forum's mods will already started deleting.

A few things to note. Being gay is not a choice. Having to hide a choice you made is not the same thing as literally having to hide the fact that you exist. Now, being Chinese is a different matter, yes, and more comparable, but I haven't seen anyone here arguing against racially diverse casts. In fact, in a thread discussing the possibility of taking the Fates idea of nations based on more than just generic fantasy western nations, and having them appear in future Fire Emblem games, most people were pretty positive about the idea.

Regardless, though, the reason we aren't talking about race in Fire Emblem right now is because... this thread is about LGBT characters in Fire Emblem. So we're talking about them.

And waiting? Just wait? Sorry, but change doesn't happen if people "just wait." When Radiant Dawn came out, we had a clear lesbian character in Heather, and a "maybe gay but are they really subtext so strong" relationship between Ike and Soren. So, it would be reasonable to assume we could just wait, right? Surely we'd get clear canon same sex romances soon, they came so close to it in Radiant Dawn.

But that didn't happen. Fire Emblem 11, Fire Emblem 12, where were the gay people? Not there. Then Awakening comes out, suddenly het pairings everywhere, everyone can marry people of the opposite gender. There is literally not a single gay person in the playable cast, this is established canon. Before you could at least imagine some people were gay, but Awakening got rid of that. And now it seems that Fates may be going the same route.

Since Radiant Dawn came a hair's breath away from an official same sex romance, we waited, and the representation of gay people has regressed to the worst point it has ever been in the series history, where you can't even head-canon characters as gay cause they're all willing to jump the bones of a member of the opposite sex at a moment's notice. This is what waiting has gotten us. (Assuming Fates doesn't pull a last minute reveal, which will leave me pleasantly surprised.)

Now, that's not to say that posting in this thread will specifically change things. But do you know what might? Letting Nintendo know. Bring attention to the issue, perhaps even get the attention of some gaming outlets, and let Nintendo know how we feel. Maybe we'll get another Tomodachi situation, where Nintendo will actually take notice. It's worth a shot (though we should wait until it is 100% confirmed there are no same sex romances.)

Also, whining? What about the people screaming about Phoenix mode, or the lack of weapon durability, or the fact that child characters exist in the first place, or the face touching, or the okatu pandering waifu whatever crap? Fire Emblem details emerge, people complain, that's pretty much the way it is on these forums.

But here's the thing. Plenty of people complain about the lack of a feature they want, or the inclusion of a feature they don't want, but for them, it's really just about a video game. It's not that important in the grand scheme of life. It's just a video game.

LGBT relationships are not just a feature that we want in a game, though it is that too. It's also something super personal to us, something that connects to our life in the real world in an important way. It's also something that can literally change how the world views LGBT people.

By that I mean, how do you think attitudes about LGBT people change? Do you think that one day, Japan is going to go to sleep full of stereotypes and weird ideas, and then the next morning they will wake up and go "Oh boy, I was totally wrong! Gay people are just normal people too!"?

Representation matters. Representation of minorities in the media can change attitudes. It can force people to reconsider their views. There's a well know story about how the actress who played Lieutenant Uhura in Star Trek was planning to quit the show. And she was talked out of it by Martin Luther King Jr, who empathized just how important it was, how amazing it was, that there was a black woman in a staring role on a major TV show like that, how important it was for all the black people watching to be able to see her. And so she didn't quit, and she helped shape and change the US's attitudes about black people.

Representation matters. Gay characters, or black characters, or whatever character of whatever marginalized group you're talking about can be more than just a feature, they can literally help change entire cultures.

Now, this is not to say that Fire Emblem is anywhere near the big hit that Star Trek was, or as influential. Nor is it to say that the representation of gay people in the media right now is as bad as the representation of black people when Star Trek aired. But there is still a lot of progress to make, and while Fire Emblem may be no Star Trek, every little bit helps. Every little bit can change the culture.

So many people in this thread have said things to the effect of "well, Japan is pretty regressive about LGBT people so I don't even want them to try, cause they will just screw it up." But again, how will Japan ever NOT be regressive about LGBT issues if no one does try? Because, taking Fire Emblem as an example, while we haven't gotten anything like Ike and Soren since then, we have gotten, as recently as Awakening, things like the V pirates. Plenty of Japanese media is willing to use LGBT as jokes, as punchlines, as stereotypes, and that's not changing. If no one ever tries to actually do something different, if no one ever tries to do a serious representation, then those stereotypes and jokes will be literally every single depiction of a LGBT person in the media. And when people grow up constantly being bombarded with "this is how gay people are", how are they supposed to suddenly learn differently?

People have to try. They may screw up at times, but they have to try. Enough of them will succeed well enough for some variety, for some genuine characters among the stereotypes and the jokes. And this will help change the culture, and improve future attempts, which will change the culture further, and improve future attempts, and so on. But it has to start some time. If everyone is too scared to make a serious attempt at depicting LGBT characters because they might not do it quite right, than the only people writing LGBT characters will be the ones who aren't even trying to do it right, and again, nothing will change.

And while I said Fire Emblem is no Star Trek, it is also a series that is near and dear to the heart of so many posters here. So of course we'd like to see it be a positive example. That is why so many people are so especially focused on LGBT representation. It's not just a gameplay feature we want. It's also something personal, and something that can literally help change the culture for the better.

My problem is not the inclusion of the gays, it's the way they would be incorporated. You can't have every character as a bi-sexual, and you can't have everyone gay....so how do you decide which units end up with which sexuality? It's just too complicated. Lets say this game had gay characters. Hell, let's say that Ryouma was a gay character as an example. Do you know how many people would want him to be straight? But if he was straight, and there were other gay characters, then several people would be upset that he wasn't gay. It would be like this for literally every character in the game. For right now, I think it's better just to make everyone straight, with people wishing that they were gay, instead of people wishing that certain gays were straight AND certain straight people were gay. Less problems, less disappointed fans.

I find it extremely disrespectful the responses I'm seeing from some of the posters in this thread. Just because some of us are okay with non-gay supports doesn't mean that we have anything against the LGBT community. If they added gays into Fire Emblem, I wouldn't care, but until then I'm perfectly happy with traditional supports. It's getting annoying seeing no one respecting each others' opinions. At the end of the day, my opinion, your opinion, and the next guys opinion really all mean the same thing: nothing. So stop arguing.

You can't have everyone as gay, and you can't have everyone as bisexual... but you can have everyone as straight? Really? You don't see how infuriating that statement is?

Why can't you have everyone as gay? No, serious question here, why can't you? So many people have acted like it doesn't matter what gender your character can romance, like it's a meaningless thing. If that's true, then there would be zero issues with forcing every player to play an entirely gay army. If it doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.

And if it does matter? Then why can't you see why it matters so much for LGBT people? And your Ryuma example is pretty silly. Yah, if he was gay, some people would want him to be straight. So? That would simply mean some straight people would find themselves in the situation that all gay people do, being unable to romance someone while playing as their own gender. (Though since Ryouma is blood related, I doubt the avatar can romance him regardless.) Why is that so terrible? I mean, why are the feelings of straight people frustrated at being unable to romance a gay character so much more valuable than the feelings of gay people being unable to romance a straight character?

Honestly, it's not that complicated. Just throw in a few gay, lesbian, and bi characters. The bi characters will actually increase the total amount of romances available for each gender, and the frustration of being unable to romance a particularly liked character as a certain gender will be exactly as it is now, except sometimes it will be straight people having that frustration.

The difference being, Fire Emblem gives the player (some) control whereas animation as a medium has virtually no viewer interaction. Adrienne Shaw (Activist for diversity in gaming) conducted a study and hilariosuly enough came to the conclusion that there was very little difference in enjoyment between playing as a character you identify with than a character of a different race, gender, orientation what have you.

Unfortunately for her she was trying to provide evidence for inclusion based on a demand by gamers, she had to refocus her efforts on molding the industry instead.

Actually, you're rather misrepresenting her conclusion, which basically stated that there are so many factors in video games that affect how someone identifies with a character (or as a character, which is rather distinct) that any one factor (such as race) does not necessarily engender identification. Her conclusions were not some definite statement, but more of a "we really need to research this more" to determine better how and if players identify with portrayals in the first place.

One other note, that was a single study with a sample size of 27 people. I could go into more detail about the study, but I'm concerned about potentially derailing this thread too much, and especially of bringing the discussion down a certain path.

I really wish I had the time and energy to go through all of this topic, but I read the first and last pages and if it's like those, then I don't think I'll even bother since I've heard a lot of this stuff before.

Without a doubt, incorporating LGBT characters into a game like this would require effort and even then, you risk angering the fanbase. There will be people out there who would get mad if you so much as imply same-sex relationships in a game and there will be those who will get irritated at the sight of a muscular bearded man with thick makeup on in a spaghetti strap dress speaking with a lisp. It would just be safer to not include them at all, especially since it's doubtful many fans would be added by doing the inclusion, anyways. And since support works like how it does in Awakening, it would get really, really complicated.

But that's lame. Lame, lame, lame. It's also how you won't get any progress done. Playing it safe just makes it boring. It also makes it more unrealistic. This game is bound to have more characters than any other FE game to date and there will be no LGBT people? Kinda implies that the world would be less complicated, easier, and better off if they didn't exist too. I understand that isn't the intent, but it's there. "I'm gonna make a world where I govern how everyone is! And you know what? I think we will be better off if LGBT isn't even an aspect of this world!"

What makes this even worse is the fact that romance is a big option in the game. There will be many hetero pairings and no homo pairings at all. It gets really in your face. And having a character representing yourself in the game isn't exactly accurate if your representative cannot have your sexuality as an option. It's funny, but many western games with a romance option for an avatar character include gay options and almost no one bats an eye and yet this isn't the case for Japanese games.

I wanna be a guy who romances guys. I want my representative to actually represent myself. It really isn't that difficult.

I started reading your post, all set to argue, but then I read the rest. :D Yah, I agree with that.

(Also, to those who thanked me for my posts in this thread, your welcome. That actually made my day a little :) )

EDIT:

Forgot to respond to this.

Also there's a "t" in the title so...
What are the odds, you think, of a transgender character in an FE game? I'm thinking low, 'cause Nintendo only has ever had two transgender characters and only one has been in more than one game... And is handled poorly, addressed as male in Japan (Birdo/Birdette yo). The other character (Vivienne) was handled seriously and her gender identity wasn't major and dealt with in a tear jerking way (her sisters finally accepting her as a woman post-game). This was erased from the English version.
I'm transgender. I'm curious what others opinions are.

Kyza from Radiant Dawn might have been trans. I can't read Japanese, so I'm relying on people who can, but here's some talk about it.

http://amielleon.dreamwidth.org/90765.html?thread=329613

Edited June 20, 2015 by Mad_Scientist

[mewyeon]

Lets say this game had gay characters. Hell, let's say that Ryouma was a gay character as an example. Do you know how many people would want him to be straight? But if he was straight, and there were other gay characters, then several people would be upset that he wasn't gay. It would be like this for literally every character in the game.

You know, I never speculated it that way. And I have no doubt it would happen exactly as you described. All kinds of rage and complaining on every FE forum would ensue.

[Mad_Scientist]

You know, I never speculated it that way. And I have no doubt it would happen exactly as you described. All kinds of rage and complaining on every FE forum would ensue.

Really?

Are you seriously both making the argument that if they made some characters gay, some people would be unhappy that other specific characters aren't gay, and so the best way to stop people from complaining about some characters not being gay is to make it so that NO characters are gay?

Does that argument really seem like it makes sense?

Look at this thread. 25 pages already, and it's not exactly full of rosey, happy posts. Did the announcement of child characters, and the reveal that there (probably) won't be same sex romances suddenly result in a bunch of happy posts? Were people saying "oh thank goodness, now I don't have to worry about if my favorite guys can be romanced as a male avatar, because I know NONE of them can! Yay!"?

No. People were unhappy. I'm not sure how anyone can look at this thread and think "yah, no same sex romances is the best way to avoid complaints."

And regarding complaints in general, everybody complains about everything. It seems at times like half the posts on this forum are people complaining about Fire Emblem, and the other half are people complaining about people complaining about Fire Emblem. (And you see the complaining about complaining in this thread too, with people accusing others of whining or throwing pity parties). People on the Internet just like to complain about stuff, and Fire Emblem fans do it all the time.

So yes, if gay characters are added, there will be some complaints. Just like they were complaints about Phoenix mode, child characters, face rubbing, marriage returning, lack of weapon durability, casual mode, and everything else. Any time a new feature is revealed, or an old feature confirmed to come back, or a detail changed, the forum explodes into activity, with a huge amount of that activity being people complaining about how this latest thing has ruined Fire Emblem forever.

That's unavoidable. So, considering that's unavoidable, why should same sex romances be the ONLY thing Intelligent Systems never touches for fear of forum arguments?

And again, I ask you to think about the logic of saying something like "But if he was straight, and there were other gay characters, then several people would be upset that he wasn't gay" and then using that as an excuse to not have ANY gay characters. Of saying "some people will be upset if he isn't gay, so better make sure that NO ONE is gay." How does that make sense?

Of course, that is only one half of the argument. The other half is "Hell, let's say that Ryouma was a gay character as an example. Do you know how many people would want him to be straight?" Insert any character for Ryouma there. But that argument is basically mocking all the gay people who have been wanting gay characters for ages. It's saying that the feelings of straight people who want LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER to be straight are more important than the feelings of gay people who just want A FEW characters to be gay.

And so my answer, if straight people are upset that there are some gay characters, then tough. Why are only their feelings the feelings that matter?

Also, how many people have complained about how unrealistic it is that every single character in Fire Emblem Awakening could fall in love with the avatar? Plenty. In fact, I've seen tons of posts saying (and expressed my support of this myself) that there should be some characters who just can't fall in love with Corrin in Fates. And we're not just talking about the siblings, but other characters as well. That logically not every character should be so utterly enamored with the avatar, and that adding other types of relationships adds more variety.

And a lot of people seem to be fine with the idea. So what in the world is going on? It's okay for a guy to be impossible to romance with ANY version of the avatar because he just can't be romanced, but it's not okay for a guy to be unable to be romanced with just a female avatar because he's gay? One will somehow just be shrugged off with an "oh well", and the other will destroy the forums and life as we know it?

It just doesn't make sense to me. Before Awakening, there were tons of characters that couldn't be romanced by the main character, and in Fates, we're almost certain to be unable to romance the siblings. Romances are already limited. And for romances other than the main character, those were limited even in Awakening, and are certain to be limited again. When there are countless ways romantic pairings can be and are limited in the game, and the only time it ever bothers you is when it involves a gay character existing, I think that says something.

And so yes, some straight people will complain if gay characters are added. This happened in the latest Dragon Age. In the previous game, they just did an everyone was bi thing (or everyone was "herosexual" as I've heard it described, which is a decent enough way of also describing the cast in Awakening) but for the latest Dragon Age, they had bi, gay, lesbian, and straight characters.

And so some people complained.

...

And the world moved on, and Dragon Age Inquisition sold a whole bunch of copies. The end.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Mad_Scientist