Thousand Names Mafia Day 4

[Vhaltz]

Having two flipped townies not give a damn and fail to show up in 3 whole days of D3 day phase hasn't exactly helped my motivation to post atm, specially considering that Excellen decided to show up only to insult people for lynching her, instead of actually doing something to stop the lynch from happening. Replacing out is always an option if you foresee being too busy to deal with mafia.

Eury's post is interesting but I want to see where she goes with her next posts before I go in-depth about it. Pretty much just interested in seeing posts from all non-kirsche players, and even kirsche should stop going on autopilot and post some thoughts now that his main lynch target is gone.

[Refa]

I thought Excellen was a dude.

[Vhaltz]

I thought so too but then the profile gender switched halfway through the game so ???

[Shinori]

Dead

Just call excel an 'It'!

Dead

[Eurykins]

...Ugh. Long day at work, endured disgustingly hot/humid weather on the walk home, and half-way through ISO surfing/posting on YOLO, power outage occurs. I'm so sad right now. T_T;;

Will rewrite my post in a bit.

[Shin]

Cool, I had a reread of Yolo, but I can't really find anything that strikes me as innately scummy. I mean, there's stuff I don't like, but a lot of that seems to be Yolo's playstyle rather than anything else. One could view the desire to murder Shinori as a little off, but I remember feeling pretty bad about Shinori's slot before his claim too.

I know I've been townreading kirsche, but I want to have a look into him again, but that can wait until after I finish today.

[Zkirsche]

Ok so Father's day was more involved than I thought so I ended up doing nothing yesterday. Sorry but family is more important than mafia. Also not sorry about Excellen, if his only response to a case is "you're salty kekek" then I don't see why I should drop the case. Frankly it's kind of toxic to use that regardless and both he and Vhaltz should feel bad about it but that can wait until endgame I guess.

I might buy Eury+Shin both town because if Eury is scum, then a townie has a role dedicated to protecting mafia. If Shin is scum, then he has a role that at least partly exists to protect a townie, and frankly he'd have no benefit to doing that? It's possible that he could be a mafioso that gains a power when it lynches someone, but that feels highly unlikely as well.

So FMPOV it's between Vhaltz and YOLO. Probably would go for Vhaltz over YOLO just because of the Snike interaction. "I'm happy to make this a 1v1" really rang alarm bells back in D2 and now I can afford to be less paranoid about it. I don't see why YOLO would make a huge post attacking Eury and defending Excellen as scum.

##Vote: Vhaltz

[Zkirsche]

Actually, thinking about it, Eury is confirmed town or at the very least, cannot be mafia governor. If she was mafia governor, today would be lylo as she would stop the D5 lynch if she wasn't lynched today and win.

I guess there could be a doc (why weren't they on Shinori though?) but then it'd still be declared as potential lylo.

[Vhaltz]

I'm pretty sure Paperblade's "wtf is Snike doing" post makes it pretty obvious that Snike was just screwing himself over hard with that comment, rather than establishing some wicked gambit. Checking timestamps Snike and Paper posted those when I was long gone (past 4am) so unless you believe I made up some risky gambit AND came up with tons of coverage for it then ???

You should probably just address my content in general because I get the impression that you just threw out a hail mary gut vote and haven't really bothered to reread.

Wrt Eury there are no LyLo announcement rules as far as I could tell. I'm more inclined to believe her claim than not but I want to see if that next post comes eventually and what's in it.

[Vhaltz]

Actually if you were legitimately bugged by me in D2 onwards why would you refuse to bring up anything about it and happily agree to line up lynches like you did last phase?

Expand on why you think I could be scum from that one line.

[Shin]

Sorry but family is more important than mafia.

What if mafia is your family?

My issue is that I don't see Vhaltz and Snike having scum-scum interactions on D1. It would have had to be a catastrophic failure on their part, and they could have literally tried to case anyone other than each other. Vhaltz's push on Snike felt pretty genuine and I don't think he would have bussed his own buddy to prevent himself from being lynched.

I agree with you about Eury probably being town, otherwise my role massively sucks. From my point of view, it's either you or Yolo, and I've been pretty much town reading you for a while, and Yolo's interactions with the lynched scum seem somewhat unlikely.

[Zkirsche]

@Randa: is *ylo and/or potential *ylo announced?

Also I did bring it up at the start of D2. I lined up lynches to see if people would really object to it/kill me for it. After tunnelling Excellen for so long I hoped people would think I would tunnel that lynch line but now I've definitely narrowed it down to two people there's no need for that and am just going to lynch you two, starting with the scummiest which is currently you. You could also interpret Paper's statement as him going "why are you making this bus". I don't see what the timestamps have got to do with anything? Why do you have to be around to make a pre-planned bus?

Anyway your other content, starting with that very post:

"hail mary gut vote" simple discrediting misrep. My vote isn't gut. I narrowed it down between two people using logic, got a town read on one and believed on was set up for a bus based on the actions of a flipped mafia. That is not a hail mary gut vote in any sense of the word.

"there's nothing he's done or said that he couldn't do as either alignment" discrediting the cop. Sowing distrust, pushing hard that we should be wary if cop makes it to lylo even though that is obvious.

Scum interactions aren't even that good past the Snike comment. PB defended you hard earlygame.

Also from a PoE perspective, I doubt that Yolo's last post was scum. He doesn't give himself many options going into D4 other than a continued Eury tunnel. Only bad thing about it is the potential white-knighting of Excellen, but I'm willing to admit that he can see what I could not in Excellen. Outside of that post, I can really sympathise with the hating people who don't vote.

The only things going for you is that you defend Excellen and Shin when there was no need for you to do so, and LG's opening comment on your slot doesn't really read like a mafioso talking about their buddy (no reason for them to throw shade on you by saying you're not auto-clear) but then it could just be distancing so this point is weak imo (but worth considering nonetheless).

Is that enough? If you're town don't worry we'll lynch Yolo tomorrow in your name. =)

[Zkirsche]

@Shin it may have been a bus gone wrong, as in, he didn't expect the lynch to take off.

[Eurykins]

Okay, now that I'm no longer in the realm of the dead, back to posting.

YOLO's ISO:

> Vote/Case on Vhaltz

~ also why the hell would he say "i pointed out brownings problem cuz i didnt want him to dig up a grave (69)" instead of jus letting niggas post? Does catching someone else early in their mishaps (in terms of contradicting points, or otherwise faulty logic) necessarily paint one as scummy for it? Or are you saying that Vhaltz was trying to play the game for Excellen (which I somewhat doubt)? Not sure why this is necessarily a scum tell in itself.

~ why does he name kirsche as town in 107 but not name townies earlier when making that comment? This makes it sound like people NEED to list every one of their town-tells whenever they have an interest in commenting on someone being town- I find this inaccurate and definitely not a scum tell in itself. (I personally prefer to just make a notion of who's scum and leave implications to say who I find as more of the townish spectrum. IE. Priority list: X > Y > Z >>>>>> Everyone else.)

~ 98 grimy as well where hes like "scum is outside of current conversation cuz they wouldnt give a fuck about spamming up the thread" what the fuck? id LOVE to be scum and spam the thread hardbody over useless shit. Except "spamming the thread over useless shit" isn't exactly the greatest way for scum to play either (this can be a pretty scummy act in itself if it's the only thing they're doing). People can easily be sent off to the lynch for needlessly spamming over trivial matters that really don't result in any progress/content being had.

> Block post

~ paperblade is town cuz he whiteknighted vhaltz I don't see how/why white-knighting in itself is a towntell? (And obviously, by this point, we all know that this is also false with PB/LG's lynch/flip.)

~ prims points are worthless cuz of past game salt Why is this argument more catered to "Oh, someone must be salty about last game" vs. THIS game's content? (And it seems to more take a jab at the player himself, as opposed to any of his cases/points?)

> Swapping over to Snike wagon/FoS'ing others

~ i jus realized paperblade is scummy for the same reason rose is plus all hes been doing is whiteknighting vhaltz. Why does it seem to take the end of the day phase/Vhaltz wagon not happening to see PB's actions in a scummy light? Secondly, you say "Scummy for the same reason rose is" yet none of your posts prior to this one (as far as I could see) indicate any sort of reasoning behind scum-reading Rose slot?

> http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54362&page=26#entry3824210 Wallposterino

~ I'm not sure how Kirsche's "flopping from Vhaltz to Snike" (after tunneling Vhaltz for a while) = moreso a towntell over a scum tell? he was putting in good legwork towards vhaltz and i think that if he was scum hed be likelier to CONTINUE that line of questioning before switching to snike so easily. I personally feel as though Kirsche (as scum) would be moreso liable to changing to Snike (in the event that Snike lynch was inevitable) in order to maintain a stronger position in terms of "who voted/consolidated on who" as opposed to avoiding voting on a scum wagon/lynch. Plus, your notion of him continuing on the wagon (as scum) implies that Vhaltz would probably be town in this instance for that logic to be sound.

~ vhaltz as town for starting the snike wagon and being his counterwagon. For one, someone mentioning someone as being scummy/having scum tells right off the bat does not instantly paint them as town, IMO. (I've done that plenty of times as scum-side, because I play scum as I would town and I will point out anything that town!me would generally have issues with/find off with people's gameplay.) Secondly, SNIKE is the one that baited in/pulled in a 1v1, so therein lies the possibility of a very risky gambit to have occurred (which has been done pretty often before in Mafia games here) - there had to be some sort of reason why Snike was willing to pull in/make a 1v1 situation.

~ Something something casing on me. (Not going to quote EVERYTHING while responding 'cause that would just take too long and too lazy atm.) Don't care about the points against Mancer (before me subbing in) because I don't care about what he might've said/done before I came into the game. (Once I sub into the game, I play as me, and I don't exist to explain/speak for whoever I subbed in for. Not my issue personally.) My comments on the whole "Boss vig" thing was looking at the people who supported him prior in terms of shooting Rapier (the wagons/votes prior to his death), and how the entire situation occurred. Did I find Boss scummy in himself when it came to the shot? No, but I felt it was poor gameplay that he was so trigger-happy with his role (and I disliked the people who kept harping for Rapier's death for what seemed to be very little reason).

Secondly, the notions on Rose slot comes from the fact that, I had no HARD proof to my read on him, yet (me knowing Shinori and generally being able to gut read him accurately 90%+ of the time in-games) I had a pretty good feeling that he wasn't scum this game. This is why I refused to EVER support a lynch on him, because most of the cases on him were "Blah blah blah inactivity and some of his responses to said posts/gripes at his inactivity" shit. That, plus the fact that Prims inadvertently RB'd him (and his former player not even sending in a night action N1) made for a pretty townie response of "I'm losing my drive to post/be active because I basically got fucked over by two townies for two consecutive night phases." Don't know why it took him claiming COP openly for others to see him as not being scum (or otherwise being less willing to lynch his slot), but that led to his certain death last night phase.

Me having Vhaltz in consideration for lynch is from my thoughts revolving around him, people who cased him, etc. The only reason why you see it as "whack" is because you disagree with it/townread Vhaltz yourself. Simple as that.

(And not going to even bother with the notions of Shinori case, since we all know how he's flipped and whatnot, so finding his slot scummy for not much reason is kinda moot.)

My overall thoughts on his slot:

I'm not altogether sure if I'm getting more hung up on the fact that I dislike the way YOLO's been approaching people and his cases/points, or the fact that I feel like he seems to "townread/scumread" people based around pretty flimsy/awkward pieces of notions/logic. (Could be a difference of perception in terms of gameplay/PoV in reading people, not sure).

In terms of associations with those who've flipped SCUM so far:

> He never really says much about Snike aside from the consolidation vote (aside from noting that the driver claim doesn't affect any reads on him). [Don't recall seeing any real points/notions/thoughts on Snike earlier in the day phase, which is odd given how much people wanted to lynch Snike.]

> Part of me wants to say that him suspecting LG slot (plus how he chose to town-read Vhaltz based on "him being on Snike's wagon first") and insta-voting come D2 makes the timing feel a bit weird to me? But aside from that, he does post D1 wrt wanting to jump on this slot if Snike flips scum, so at least that adds up well enough.

Has some associations possibly WRT Snike, but has lesser ones with LG/PB slot. This could've been as a result of LG slot being under high suspect already (in the timing), which could've led scum team to leave him for dead (in hopes of the last scum member garnering enough townie points to survive off if it), [and this is also a possibility wrt Snike's lynch/1v1 thing as well] but I dunno.

Definitely not nearly as bad as Excellen's own interactions were IMO (despite him flipping town), but will be a consideration if need be for today's lynch.

---> Stopping the post here ('cause wall posts ahoy), and will be posting up again soon with Kirsche/Vhaltz thoughts/ISOs.

[Vhaltz]

"hail mary gut vote" simple discrediting misrep. My vote isn't gut. I narrowed it down between two people using logic, got a town read on one and believed on was set up for a bus based on the actions of a flipped mafia. That is not a hail mary gut vote in any sense of the word.

What I see here is that you put out absolutely minimal effort into explaining your reads and then call me out for "discrediting misrep" when I say that the logic is bullshit, which it was. The push on me was based entirely on Snike saying he'd make it a 1v1 which is inconclusive and doesn't point out scum intent as much as it points out a "possibility". The Yolo townread is literally stolen from my last post last phase, too.

idk what their beef with Yolo is considering that both Prims and I were willing to see him lynched by D2 phase end if he didn't do shit, but Yolo's recent content is good and I don't see any reason why scum!yolo would want to drive a counterwagon to excellen with so much effort and so many WORDS if they were the last scum alive.

Which there are obvious issues with as well. Yolo still makes potential sense as scum because pressing somebody other than Excellen when the Excellen lynch was already set in stone doesn't actively contradict the scum agenda, and from the PoV of Yolo!scum he'd be in desperate need of a content post at that point considering that he went through most of D1 and D2 with only passing commentary and rarely direct involvement. Townreads don't mean anything once you reach 3p LyLo so setting up for one mislynch for the next phase wouldn't be exactly out there either.

The sudden townread on Yolo is extremely weak, you don't bother analyzing his interactions with scum whether for good or for bad because then you'd be forced to subject them to the same kind of logic that you used when mentioning my interactions, calling the potentially questionable ones questionable, and dismissing the ones that make me blatantly town by saying "you've got these things going for you but they don't matter". If you did then you wouldn't be able to justify voting me over Yolo, because I was actively pushing both wagons whereas Yolo voted Snike for consolidation and sat on their Gaius vote D2 until Prims and I made the lynch happen.

The switch on me itself is weak as well. "Sowing mistrust" and "Pushing hard" in relation to questioning Shinori if they made it alive to LyLo is purely rethoric because there's nothing for scum to gain from it in the context of Shinori in this game, there was no report to discredit and there was no push on Shinori to lynch him, so the scum intent to be gained form those tactics simply aren't there, and it boils down to empty buzzwording in hopes of making me look scummy. Regarding "pushing hard" I mentioned it once towards the end of the phase, and mentioning it was A Good Idea At The Time because Eury was clearly giving Shinori a huge pass for what seemed like attitude tells rather than alignment tells towards the end of D2, and considering that I'd likely die N3 in the Shinori!scum scenario it was worth reminding Eury to not make that mistake in LyLo.

Withholding vote because OMGUS is a thing and I have to go get Mitsuki at the station. There's a chance that kirsche legitimately believes what hes saying somehow, mostly just because the N1 kill makes much more sense from yolo!scum than from kirsche!scum but eh. I was giving kirsche credit for the switch onto Gaius D2 but it turns out if he's scum he locked himself into it anyways by calling Gaius scummy and Shinori townie much earlier in the phase. I'll reread and make a decision tomorrow hopefully.

[Zkirsche]

Hey man sheeping mafioso's townread is a legit tactic they know for sure who is town and who is scum.

Tbh I didn't read that small snippet about Yolo most of my memory of your Yolo stuff is with regards to analysing his scum interactions, which IIRC the conclusion was "not interesting" and nothing more.

Just because I didn't write an essay into why you were scum doesn't mean I didn't give it some thought.

Yolo still makes potential sense as scum

I admit that. What I'm saying is that I think you're more likely scum and his actions makes him less likely to be scum. Do you see the difference?

Townreads don't mean anything once you reach 3p LyLo

This is bullshit, if you say someone's actions appear townie one phase than say that they are scummy the next phase you are not getting away with it.

Also do you really not think about what town are more likely to do in certain situations and only what scum are likely to do? It's especially egregious in 3p lylo as any mistake, anything overlooked, can determine the game. An atrocious opinion.

you don't bother analyzing his interactions with scum whether for good or for bad

I actually did read his interactions, Gaius' comments on him could come from either alignment. Paper's comments on him are the same though if Yolo was lynched D1 and flipped scum then I'd probably say that PB was trying to make an excuse not to talk about his buddy? Though really scum would love an excuse to not talk about anyone so that's not important. Snike doesn't really make anything standoutish about Yolo either. overall the interactions are, as you say, uninteresting. Unlike you though I'm not mafia so don't feel the need to pad my posts out explaining that unless asked about.

I'm not dismissing them, I weighed them against everything else and have determined that you are scummy. I don't have to swing my opinion entirely because of one good interaction do I? Is that advanced town play now? Sorry this is my first game in a while so I may be a bit rusty when it comes to these seemingly ludicrous play tactics. =)

Yolo was pushing Gaius quite strongly as well. Have you forgotten that post with the giant text saying that we should only lynch between Gaius/Shinori? Every one of his posts was pushign that. His only poor interaction which I overlooked in the above is his 180 on PB's white knighting. Which is actually pretty bad so I sincerely hope that he comes and explains why he did so.

There *could* be reports and there *could* be the need to push him. It's better to put the fear in people's minds early than trying to do so in *ylo when everyone's made up their minds. Pushing hard was a bad phrase through, I meant that the message was clear and focused. As in, instead of weakly pushing it by implying that he might still be scum you made it clear that people should see it as a very real possibility. I might be biased though as Shinori was always a townread and I found the pressure on him absurd.

Fyi I jumped on the Paper bandwagon as early as D1 with him as my secondary scumread before Excellen came along. If I was mafia, I locked myself into busses very early on for little benefit. Noone would've batted an eye if I didn't sheep with Bizz's logic. I know you want badly to find some way of justifying my slot being scum, but it doesn't make sense I'm afraid. These is no justification for my interactions with flipped scum, whereas with you and Yolo there is, you moreso.

[Randa]

*YLO variants will be announced.

[Vhaltz]

It appears I have quite a lot of photography stuff to do tomorrow so I won't be around until pretty late, so I pretty much have to do stuff now even though I'm tired as shit.

This is bullshit, if you say someone's actions appear townie one phase than say that they are scummy the next phase you are not getting away with it.

Except if it's 3p LyLo and you've been townreading everybody alive you still have to turn on one of your reads inevitably? It happens whether you're town or you're scum in that situation so changing your read around in that scenario isn't going to appear questionable. This is disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and making the disagreement seem like a push against my logic.

Hey man sheeping mafioso's townread is a legit tactic they know for sure who is town and who is scum.

Tbh I didn't read that small snippet about Yolo most of my memory of your Yolo stuff is with regards to analysing his scum interactions, which IIRC the conclusion was "not interesting" and nothing more.

Just because I didn't write an essay into why you were scum doesn't mean I didn't give it some thought.

That doesn't change the fact that you didn't establish anything near telling up front and waited for my response to call me out on "misrepping" you when your one sentence case was oversimplified and ridiculous per se.

Don't feel like responding to the rest of the push-oriented rethoric, pretty sure kirsche is town after mulling stuff over at the station and it doesn't seem like I can convince him otherwise by showing him that he's wrong so kirsche can enjoy being very blatantly wrong later. It did cross my mind earlier that scum wouldn't just casually throw out a vote on a commonly established townread with little to no explanation instead of some internally consistent wall on it, I just didn't take it into account because of the misrep trap, which was pretty egotistical of me to interpret as such in the first place but whatever.

Imo the only players that could've killed Bossa N1 were Yolo and Eury, Eury because Gaius + Eury would be a replace in team that had to catch up on D1 shenanigans, so in absence of deep analysis on people's potential roles and setup stuff killing an obvtown slot like the dayvig would seem like the safe choice. Yolo!scum gained a lot from killing Bossa because he'd no longer have to cater to his own meta in his home boards, and it would allow him to coast through the game, much like the way he did in D2 and most of D3.

Based on thread memory what bugs me the most is the complete uninvolvement with the game at times. His only real contentposts that I remember were the two where he called me scum in D1 and his latest D3 wall, with everything in between being passing commentary. His switch onto Snike was also the weirdest because he didn't imply finding anything right with the case on Snike, or anything wrong with the case on me, he just switched saying he'd want to see a lynch on me/snike and nobody else (for some reason?) and his only explanation for the switch is he was consolidating and thought the deadline was sooner.

His D3 post, #513, makes it pretty obvious that he wasn't paying attention to D2 "and helping push through the gaius wagon yesterday when it looked like someone else (i forget who) almost was going to get lynched instead" which begs the question of why his conviction on lynching Gaius/Shinori was so seemingly huge if he hadn't even read the last couple of pages and just generally feels fake.

The part of his D3 post that bugs me the most is his Mancer/Eury case. He runs down through probably every single post from the slot and found something scummy to say about every one of them, which feels extremely forced. His issues with Eury that I found agreeable were like, two, while the rest of two huge paragraphs essentially talk about how Eury says a couple of inconclusive things here and there which isn't really scummy? I disregarded it as Yolo not knowing Eury's playstyle earlier but it really is something very easy to poke at and it feels like Yolo's issues with Eury boil down to playing the game differently which is similar to how I felt with his D1 push.

Overall I think he's just been extremely apathetic scum all game and masked it by sounding loud in what little he posted.

##Vote: Yolo

Barring dumb setup design like scum ITP hunter protecting town for them creds or something like that this should end the game. I'd rather not get lynched before Yolo but I'm most likely going to be away for most of tomorrow so it's up to Eury/Shin, and if one of them ends up being scum and the graveyard is yelling at me for "bad setupspec" again then shrug man.

[SB.]

24 hours and 15 minutes left

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

##vote eury

idk where to look past this

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

vhaltz i thought i was unlikely scum yesterday due to my big post. im at a loss to what has changed to where youre now pointing to it for reasoning as to why im scum

[Zkirsche]

Yolo Eury is confirmed town.

[Shin]

Cool, I'm looking back at both Yolo and kirsche, I honestly think scum's one of those two. If Vhaltz is scum I'm going to be mad.

Yolo initially called Paper town for whiteknighting Vhaltz on D1, then later scummy? He also says that there was one scum between Vhaltz/Snike but never really seemed to consider Snike a voting option until his lynch was almost confirmed, as well as wondering why nobody was against the Snike wagon. Whilst this seems passively defensive of him, he did vote Snike in the end, and #fos'd Paper, which is a weird way to bring attention to a potential scumbuddy. D2 he voted LG and made it pretty clear that he wanted him lynched from the get go.

I'd be interested to see where his vote would go other than Eury. The problem with scum!yolo is that he would have sacrificed his scumbuddies very early on, and unless this is some crazy new age ploy, he's shot himself in the foot and then let it fester in dirty water.

kirsche's early content is really towny. The Vhaltz case seemed genuine and the swap to Snike would again be shooting himself in the foot, especially since Vhaltz had a good wagon going on him. He was also a heavy critic of Paperblade and did eventually vote LG. Again, scum would have to be bussing like mad. Still, he was rather quiet about LG during D2, which I guess is a point against him. There was no scum intent on lynching Excellen, mostly because everyone wanted it and for good reason.

I'm going to read Vhaltz again, kirsche and Yolo had slightly weird dynamics with LG and Snike respectively, but that doesn't really help me.

[Shin]

Haha, the early push on Vhaltz was amazing. I'm still questioning the Vhaltz voting Snike as scum, I just feel he could have picked absolutely anyone as a counterwagon, the likes of Excellen or rose would have been really easy to pick instead. He also took his vote off Snike for a while, putting it back on towards deadline. He also pointed out massive errors of LG's post, which I don't think he'd do as his buddy. He could have probably pushed the lynch on me, it was pretty evenly split at that point.

Basically, Vhaltz got both of his buddies lynched, making him the worst scum ever. The other two would have helped doom one of their buddies, but Vhaltz went out of his way to kill them both.

##Vote: Yolo

kirsche is the only other person who made sense, but I feel that his contributions to both scum lynches overall were more meaningful, whilst yolo seemed a little too distant from Snike for my liking.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

Yolo Eury is confirmed town.

i dont understand why she cant jus b lying. using a claim to scare off her lynch. thats what id do as the last scum

but im jus vt. if yall go thru w/my lynch please consider eury