Smash 4, Character Discussion Thread. #21 Metaknight

[Jedi]

3 Votes

Zero Suit Samus

Zelda

1 Vote

Wario

Captain Falcon

Sonic

Roy

Palutena

Samus

Edited December 4, 2015 by Jedi

[Elieson]

Power Suit Samus & Mii Gunner

[Jedi]

3 Votes

Zero Suit Samus

Zelda

2 Votes

Samus

1 Vote

Wario

Captain Falcon

Sonic

Roy

Palutena

Mii Gunner

[Knife]

Do ZSS

[Jedi]

and with that final vote its decided.

Discussion will be on Zero Suit Samus

" Now I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... My so-called Zero Mission."

Origin: Metroid Zero Mission for the GBA
Year: 2004, although if you want to be technical, 1986 with the bonus endings from Metroid 1 onward.

Developer: Nintendo
VA: Alesia Glidewell
Framedata

RSATD: Her crawling animation is a direct reference to her crawling in Metroid Zero Mission (its like frame by frame the exact same), in which she had to do tons of sneaking around in that of vents and tunnels, to avoid detection.

Zero Suit Samus, the deadly fighter, who can ruin your day with her vast array of combos, and traps that she can get you into with her various paralyzer moves, she's acrobatic, with many good recovery options, a very good set of kill options, although her grab is a tether it leads into some of the most devastating combos in the game, however it does leave her wide open if she misses, she is a very very good character and has good risk vs reward in terms of her combinations and ridiculously good up B. She has one of the higher learning curves in the game imo.

People were wondering where she stood, but knew it was high up, Nairo proved her place by defeating many difficult opponents and finally knocking ZeRo down recently.

So have fun discussing.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Jedi

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Nintendo's sexiest fem character. Let's get that out of the way.

But I hate the way they're played on For Glory. *Sigh*.... Watevs

Mobility, yep, it's great, tho wall jumps are kinda low.
Neutral Game, very good. Forces opponents to move or get paralyzed for follow ups.

Recovery, great if you remember you have a Side-B.

Predictable and common combos/Strings:
- DThrow > UAir > UAir "..." > Even Up-B (Hard to DI from since it's fast and your opponent has an easy hit by oncoming straight from below, with a wide arc kick)
- DThrow > Fair/Bair (Easier to DI from since your opponent needs to be straight in lined, because these kicks have narrow HitBoxes. Not as reliable as UAir)

- DSmash > Grab Combo/Side Smash/Up-B (Down Smash not just gives an extra free-shot, but extra damage and set up potential. Better reliability than throwing out a Side-Smash in general. Because if it hits, you either get Grab Combo for damage, or Up-B for K.O. If they block it, then you don't move into them like you do with Side-Smash, potentially getting gabbed or worse)

- Paralyzer > Dash Attack/Grab Combo/Down-B (Maybe even Up-B or Side-Smash if they get caught up-close, they potentially (In Neutral Game) still go for a grab even when you block it, learn to react with a spot dodge)

- BThrow > Down-B Toggled Spike Kick (You can react and DI, you just need to be quick enough to dodge)

- Down-B Grounded > Smash Attacks/Up-B (Sometimes people string into an Air-Attack when you pop out of the ground)

I think she's high tier, with some flaws. Whiff a grab or projectile or even a DAir, and she can get heavily punished. Her weight is frail, but enough to get into some combo's, like Ike's DThrow > Aether without DI.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Jedi]

I dno, I think her neutral game is fairly average, because it partly relies on her grab, which is pretty meh.

[euklyd]

I dno, I think her neutral game is fairly average, because it partly relies on her grab, which is pretty meh.

she has a paralyzer (which can lead to grabs), she's fast, got a zair and flip kick, she's fuckin fast, and her nair is safe on shield. her dash grab isn't considered terrible I think.

also her grab often outlasts spotdodges

the fact that she can kill off of a grab or a uair also forces her opponent to be super respectful and limit their own options

I'll have more to say later but xeno x is a thing

e:

I think she's high tier, with some flaws. Whiff a grab or projectile or even a DAir, and she can get heavily punished. Her weight is frail, but enough to get into some combo's, like Ike's DThrow > Aether without DI.

why would you ever use dair to expose yourself to a hard punish

---

EDIT:

ok so ZSS has

- three recovery options (downb, sideb/zair tether, upb), as well as a walljump - super hard to edgeguard

- flip kick is intangible frames 3-12, and if you do use it you can choose to just not attack and run away

--- has a spike (two, actually, one of which is very strong)

- paralyzer is solid and leads into grabs, as well as b-reverses / wavebounces very well

- a frame4 upb (oos option) that kills at like 90% near the edge

- dthrow, which combos into uair and/or upb for approximately ever

- uair, which combos into upb, and is frame 6 with generous hitbox

- the combination of those, which kills at like 40% off a grab

- nair that's safe on shield, and combos into itself

--- it might combo into grabs idr

- strong killing bair, which is frame 8 (uair kills ok as well)

- zair is pretty good

- all of her relevant aerials (nair, bair, uair) have 11 frames or fewer of landing lag

- frame 1 jab

- frame 3 utilt that's got intangible legs frames 3-10

- her other tilts are fuckin fast as well

- massively disjointed usmash, pretty fast too

- dsmash that combos into grabs, upb, and can zero-death you

- 5th fastest runner, walker, and airspeed

- 4 frame jumpsquat (tied for fastest in the game)

she combos, she kills, she's got a pretty good neutral.

when you're at like 0%: if you somehow get dsmashed you're probably dead

when you're at like ~50%+: if you whiff a relatively laggy attack, you will die to throw combos

alternatively, if she gets a read and grabs you, you're similarly fucked

when you're at like ~100%: if you mis-space an attack on shield, she will kill you

Edited December 6, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

Well that was a very good series of things to know, I don't fight ZSS enough to know any of that, I mean I see some of it from Nairo, but like I don't have any ZSS experience.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

when you're at like 0%: if you somehow get dsmashed you're probably dead

when you're at like ~50%+: if you whiff a relatively laggy attack, you will die to throw combos

alternatively, if she gets a read and grabs you, you're similarly fucked

when you're at like ~100%: if you mis-space an attack on shield, she will kill you

Geez, christ. Who are we? Ike? :O

[Knife]

ZSS actually has better kill power than Ike. I'll do a write up on this soon, just been busy with finals.

[euklyd]

yeah I just got sick of people bugging me "euklyd why do you hate zss so much pls elaborate after all you voted for her" so I took time off from finals

I applaud your discipline

[Ema Skye]

Ngl, I think ZSS is #1 in this game.

Don't get me wrong, Sheik is really good. She's really safe in terms of everything. But ZSS is ridiculous in terms of her stats (pretty much everything Euk pointed out). Both require some reads to get kills (Sheik's fish combos or the 50/50 vs ZSS grab), but ZSS doesn't have to put in as much work (since she kills better than Ike).

Basically, both are really stupid to fight against but I'd prefer to fight against Sheik because at least I can live to a decently high percent trying (read: failing) to take her down.

ZSS, Sheik and Ryu are my top 3.

[euklyd]

who doesn't need reads for kills? mario? ebola backthrow?

also idk if you'd count oos options as not needing reads but that's totally a thing

Edited December 9, 2015 by Euklyd

[Knife]

Zero Suit

Pros:

-Frame 1 jab, frame 3 invincible utilt, zair, frame 4 OoS Up B (that kills), and safe on shield nair/bair make her neutral better than people like to believe. It's not the best neutral (mostly because of deadzones), but its better than most non-top tiers.

-Best advantage state in the game. Only character that can come close is maybe Ryu. She has the capability to kill you at nearly any percent. Uair>Uair>Up B can kill at any percent depending on rage and stage positioning. Nair/Down smash>offstage Flipkick spike kills any character above 50% and below that gimps characters with weak enough vertical recovery. Optimal ZSS is a very scary thing, watch Nairo for more examples of how he utilizes her advantage.

-Above average disadvantage state with Flipkick allowing her to escape lots of juggles. She is kinda susceptible to combos otherwise being a tall fast faller, but the ability to safely escape most strings/juggles is great for her.

-Very safe recovery. Not quite Sheik tier recovery, but pretty close having an option in Flipkick, tether, Up B, along with a really good double jump. Challenging her recovery offstage can get you spiked in return or ledge trump baired. Usually a better idea to focus on ledge trapping.

-Ties in with advantage state, but she has a lot of kill power even outside of the Up B and Flipkick spike. Bair is safe on shield, has good range, and kills around 90% near the ledge, less with rage/lighter character. If for some reason the opponent lived past 140%, you can just downthrow up air to finish them off (will stay a true combo till absurdly high percents). The non spike hitbox of Flipkick also has a lot of power, killing around 80% near the ledge.

-Very good mobility and high jumps, allowing her to chase opponents easier. Very good frame data overall, especially with frame 1 jab and frame 3 invincible utilt.

Cons:

-Her grab is the slowest in the game tied with Samus at 16 frames of startup for the standing grab and 69 frames of recovery, active for 13 frames. For comparison, Mario has a standing grab with startup at frame 6 and 29 frames of recovery, active for 2 frames. However, I am sort of reluctant to call it the worst grab since she has throw combos that can potentially lead to death and setups into the grab with zair/Paralyzer/nair.Without setups, she'll probably have to read you to get grabs. If ZSS whiffs a grab, can mean death or a huge combo. If opponents are very good with shielding and rolling, could be a problem for ZSS.

-Subpar smashes in Fsmash and Usmash. Fsmash has pretty weak power for a smash attack and not very good frame data. Upsmash rarely kill until high percents (if your opponent lives to a high enough percent where usmash kills and you play ZSS, you failed) and ZSS is usually better off catching the landing or juggling with uair. Dsmash is pretty good however, leading into setups and being able to cover ledge options/catch spotdodges and rolls.

-Light weight. Even lighter than Sheik at 81.

Bad matchups? Usually considered to be Pikachu and maybe Diddy Kong... that's it. Even matchups? Sheik, Ryu, Greninja, Yoshi, Villager, possibly Olimar and Kirby. Good matchups? Everyone else. She is very close to being Sheik level, but she has 2 bad matchups and 7 even matchups while Sheik has no bad matchups and 5 even matchups. Definitely #2 though.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Knife

[euklyd]

asdf

it's still broken but I guess this is something to work on

[Jedi]

Would you say ZSS struggles with characters who can punish fairly hard, even if she might not be like at a disadvantage towards them?

If they can say, bait her or something.

[euklyd]

uhhh

her fall speed makes her vulnerable to more combos than many, if that's what you're asking, and she's light so she gets more hitstun (although I'm not sure that helps)

e: ftr she shares this trait with Sheik, Fox, Diddy, Falcon, etc.

other characters that have have similar vulnerabilities (not heavy enough to not die, not floaty enough to escape) are like, Link and Shulk and Ryu iirc

but like stuff like Link's dthrow->usmash, which often doesn't work at all, is true at low-mid percents (like 40% iirc), and his dthrow->uair registers as true at kill% much more leniently than say, Bowser (who's heavy) or Peach (who's floaty)

Edited December 11, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

Thats good to know, but i meant baiting throws and stuff. So she misses and is wide open.

[euklyd]

Thats good to know, but i meant baiting throws and stuff. So she misses and is wide open.

uhhh

at a more tl;dr form, my post basically meant "she's combo food and her weight means she dies early"

so like, if she whiffs a grab in a ditto, then her 40-50 frames of cooldown mean the other can easily grab her and have an easy time comboing into a kill

mario would get similar stupid combos

a fox could run up and usmash (and maybe even charge for a bit!) and she'd die early

or on the other end of the tier spectrum, ganon could fsmash and kill her much earlier than he could kill say, Link off a whiffed grab

on the OTHER hand, she also has good moves to escape strings with, like flip kick (intangible frame 3), which (again) Link can't do nearly as well

this all being said I'm not a ZSS main, we should get Ice in here

[Knife]

Her advantage is just so crazy that her risk reward is still heavily skewed in her favor. A good ZSS main will not go for many raw grabs, especially at percents they can die at. There's a lot of things that can confirm into grab as well. Even if she lands 50% of grabs, usually she is getting more reward off the ones she does land as opposed to the ones she whiffs and gets punished for.

That is to say, obviously you can't always go for raw grabs though, that 50% rate will go down even lower once an intelligent opponent realizes you're fishing for grabs.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Knife

[Jedi]

Alright, I guess I was basically asking about unskilled ZSS's on accident whoops, also are we done going over her or is there more to cover? I don't have much knowledge of her myself.

[euklyd]

I want to see Ice Sage weigh in on this. He's like the only good ZSS I know of on SF iirc, and he hasn't said a thing.

[Ice Sage]

ZSS

I definitely think she is number 2 with Sheik number 1.

Frame 1 jab, amazing utilt, tether grab that works really well, good recovery in general. All her tilts and aerials are fast. Bair has strong kill potential. And while her grab is slow, the reward you get from it is too good.Uair combos itself a lot. You can grab someone that's at 30% and they will die. Won't lie that is stupid. Nair to grab is a pretty safe as well, Paralyzer etc. Frame 4 OoS upb can kill early. As for smash attacks I don't think up smash or forward smash are good at all, but her down smash is amazing. It can lead to a grab, up b or set up for a flip kick spike. Zair can gimp. I like using Dair if i have a stock lead to spike. I wouldn't use it in any other situation though. Overall she has great frame data, kill power and good mobility. She has a ton of good match ups.

I still think Sheik is better and safer, but my opinion can change.

[Jedi]

Thank you for your insight Ice, its interesting to see the safe vs safe ratio, so I appreciate it.

But now we vote for Number 12!

Voting ends on the 17th, Cloud is still new, but is now in the game. I guess you can vote for him.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Jedi