Smash 4, Character Discussion Thread. #21 Metaknight

[euklyd]

actually ZSS also has those dsmash 0-deaths

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Don't get me wrong, I dislike Sheik nearly as much as you do, but her kill combos aren't super easy like DK's or ZSS's, and she doesn't have a kill throw like Ness or Charizard. I wasn't referring to any kill combos with Samus, just stuff like utilt to charge shot that's an easy ~40% or so (providing you have a charge shot on deck), or dash attack to uair strings (which is probably more like 30%, but it's still reasonable). I'm pretty sure Samus can even get utilt to screw attack for a kill combo too, her utilt rules.

That's what I like about Sheik. The grabs, tilts, speed and damage along with knock back proves this character is a fighter that needs to be taken seriously and really gotta get down to earth with. None of that, "Oh you grabbed me at 150%, I'm dead now." The only cheap thing, again, is the needles. Cool with combo's like when they're used in the air and angled downwards tho.

As for Samus w/Power Suit. Dash Atk, despite being hard to connect, can lead into UAir to UAir to UpB, or, UAir to BAir and another BAir for easy 40+% from 0%. DThrow to UAir or FAir. Zair to Grab, Charge Beam or most other attacks (ZAIR 4 DAYZ). Low % ground hit Utilts and DAir can combo into UAir, but cannot combo KO into Screw Atk, the opponent can DI and react to early. Utilt is mighty slow and should be thrown out for anti-air reads, like after a DThrow > Fair.

Super Missile + Charge Beam MAX > Shields = Break. Connected Bomb + Charge Beam > Shields = Break.

Gordo beats needles. Dedede confirmed top tier???

Cute, if Sheik will even let you throw one out with those needles.

Also, should we change the title to ZSS now?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Knife]

I have lots of info on ZSS too whenever that happens

[Jedi]

grab throw flipkick isn't guaranteed at all afaik; it's upb you need to worry about

and sheik air wobbles aren't guaranteed into kills either

Dem 50/50 vanishes are killer, quite literally.

Also, should we change the title to ZSS now?

Nope, thats not how this thread works.

But I am open to suggestion, we seem to be still discussing Sheik to an extent, so the vote won't be until we think we've covered the bases.

[Comet]

it's not as much of a 50/50 as you think. at kill % at places like battlefield, you can jump to get away from vanish and up air.

sheik's vanish invincibility takes a while to start up too, so you can spike her during the startup if you can reach her.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Comet

[euklyd]

for the uninitiated, the 50/50 comes from the fact that you can airdodge out of tumble sooner than you can do most other things, so you've got a choice of airdodging early (to dodge the uair) or jumping slightly later (to dodge the vanish)

if you choose to jump the uair hits you before you can be out of the way

this is tighter than many people like to believe, tho

iirc you can only airdodge a handful of frames sooner (like no more than five I think) so if you have a way to get a hitbox where sheik is before she becomes intangible, that miiiight work

it'd need to be relatively fast, like probably no later than frame 10? I feel like the issue also lies in the fact that by the time she does her little pre-vanish jump, I think she's already intangible, so you'd need to have a LOT of range

[Knife]

I know some fast dairs beat both options sometimes. Like a Mario will trade hits with Sheik upair and cancel out the rest of the hits.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

If that's true, Mario would need to be oncoming for that to work. Otherwise, what's the point when Sheik can use her disjointed FAir to challenge.

[euklyd]

I know some fast dairs beat both options sometimes. Like a Mario will trade hits with Sheik upair and cancel out the rest of the hits.

if this is the case then it's not a 50/50 at that % to begin with

I still think it's generally safer to just jump away and be done with it

If that's true, Mario would need to be oncoming for that to work. Otherwise, what's the point when Sheik can use her disjointed FAir to challenge.

fair isn't vertically disjointed Edited December 1, 2015 by Euklyd

[Knife]

Yeah, its a weird percent where that works. I know some chars also have the aerial mobility to usually want to air dodge instead of DJ. Ness probably best example (lots of mobility during air dodge, but slow double jump). Sheik can still catch this air dodge with a delayed up air or precise vanish read, but it gets a little tougher to kill him. Pro level Ness vs Sheik will usually come down to the Ness either being gimped (which isn't hard) or Ness dying at outrageous percents. Sheik will usually die to rage bthrow or nair. Not always how it goes of course, but usually.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Knife

[Jedi]

I don't think i've seen much Sheik vs Ness tbh.

[euklyd]

I don't think i've seen much Sheik vs Ness tbh.

FOW vs ZeRo at some Vegas tournament turned Sheik/Ness set after the first game. I think NAKAT might've done some shit during the crew battle at EVO as well? idr

[Jedi]

FOW vs ZeRo at some Vegas tournament turned Sheik/Ness set after the first game. I think NAKAT might've done some shit during the crew battle at EVO as well? idr

I'll keep that in mind and look stuff up.

Also general question are we done with Sheik or is there more to be said?

[Knife]

Fow vs ZeRo, this is how Fow's stocks were taken:

Game 1, Stock 1: Killed at 180% by a fair close to the ledge

G1, S2: Killed at 76% by a gimp (ran into PK Thunder 2, shortened length and teched)

G2, S1: Fow SDs

G2, S2: Killed at 177% by a fair close to the ledge

G3, S1: Killed at 140% by a baited airdodge uair

G3, S2: Killed at 140% by a fair close to the ledge

So Sheik does have a hard time getting her 50/50 kills on Ness, given his high mobility airdodge and the fact that none of FOW's deaths was the results of a 50/50 (or a grab followup in general). So Ness does at least have that going for him in this matchup. Still really bad matchup for him since he can get gimped so easily and has a really hard time approaching.

[euklyd]

imo it's also useful to keep in mind that at that point ZeRo hadn't fully transitioned to Sheik yet either, so he didn't have a lot of the tricks he uses now very polished (if he had them at all) e.g., weak nair to usmash

e: idrc if we move on from sheik at this point

Edited December 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

Ok, lets move forward with Votes for #11!

Vote ends on the 5th (Which is my Mothers birthday.)

Edited December 4, 2015 by Jedi

[euklyd]

Zero Suit Samus

let's just move down the tierlist gogogo

[General Horace]

zss so i can whine about her bullshit and WARIO

[Jedi]

I'm gonna use one of my votes right now, and save the other for a tie breaker.

Sonic

[Refa]

Zelda because it'll be like nominating Sheik twice in a row.

[euklyd]

zelda is terrible and has no options in the neutral or for kills

next?

[Carmine Sword]

Captain Falcon and Zero Suit Samus.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Carmine Sword

[Tsunami922]

Zelda

Palutena

[Zerosabers]

Zelda + Roy

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Samus

Like, I love schooling casuals with some dank gimps and tricks, and going from Zoner to "IN YO F*N FACE!"

Pardon me.