Mark the Tactician Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Since "Heroes of Light and Shadow" was released, recent FE games have included a Casual Mode, which means units beaten in one chapter will re-appear in the next chapter... Ignoring the fact that most players will usually restart anyway if a unit is taken down, should there be a harsher penalty to the player if they are playing casual mode, apart from not being able to use that unit for the rest of whatever chapter they are taken down on? What I was thinking is this: If a unit falls in battle, then some of their stats should decrease a little... kind of like leveling down. Sure, they might still be use-able, but they won't be as effective as they would've been if they hadn't fallen at all. Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom037 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I don't think that's a good idea, as casual mode is meant for scrubs less serious players and I think not using said unit for the rest of the chapter and missing out on exp for them is enough of a deterrent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azz Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I personally don't think so no.While I may be a little bias since I prefer Casual over Classic, I think, like Phatom037 said, the fact they lose out on experience for the rest of the map is enough and anyways, Casual is meant for newcomers to the series or just people who enjoy not having to reset if they lose a unit.Penalizing them for being inexperienced or just cause they enjoy that type of play is poor game design and off putting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I really think there should be less to experience in casual, ie blocked chapters and such made exclusive to Classic, to give incentive to move up to Classic. Debuffing the unit kinda defeats the point of bringing them back, as they already suffer as others pointed out, and doesn't really provide an incentive for Classic either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 maybe a small temporary debuff (like -2 str/mag for one map) or forced sitting out for the next chapter is a good idea. permanent consequences defeat the point of casual mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark the Tactician Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) maybe a small temporary debuff (like -2 str/mag for one map) or forced sitting out for the next chapter is a good idea. permanent consequences defeat the point of casual mode. I suppose that might work better, having it work like the temporary buffs your units can get from "How's Everyone"/Barracks. Let me try to revise my suggestion... If a unit falls in battle, then two of their stats should be nerfed by 2 points in the next chapter. (EX: -2 Skill and Defense) If they survive the next chapter (or if they aren't deployed at all), then their stats will return to normal. However, if they fall again while their stats are debuffed, then the stats will remain nerfed for the next chapter. I was originally going to say subtract one more point temporarily from another stat (like luck or speed), but maybe that's too much still. Edited August 22, 2015 by Mark the Tactician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saifors Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Maybe have them lose the exp they gained in that chapter? Or maybe lose a percentage of their inventory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadGame Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Yes, every mode should have its risks. Tougher enemies, less experience, these things. Even classic fans might try it out then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The most I can think of is making it so that losing a unit would cause the player to lose gold/BEXP. If you start tacking penalties onto the unit itself it risks becoming a downwards spiral to the point where they may as well have died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) maybe a small temporary debuff (like -2 str/mag for one map) or forced sitting out for the next chapter is a good idea. permanent consequences defeat the point of casual mode. Forced sit out to recover sounds good, it worked for Thracia well you know different mechanic, but still I like that. I also think people are too swift to try to give permanent consequences to people who want to play casual mode. Edited August 22, 2015 by Jedi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I think being short a unit for the rest of that chapter is punishment enough. Remember who that mode is aimed at! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) no, i disagree. if you want people to progress from casual mode to classic mode, then you should condition them by having them expect a very mild long-term consequence for having a unit die. something as small as -2 str/mag for one chapter might not even stop a player from deploying a unit in the subsequent chapter (which is a good thing because you don't want to punish a player too hard), but it has a psychological effect. it works from a flavor point of view because the defeated unit can just be considered "wounded" and that explains the temporary stat drop. Edited August 22, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I don't expect to condition anyone. If they want to make the jump, they will do so on their own volition. If not, then they're not the appropriate target audience, so making the game harder for them won't make a positive difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) the best way to make a hardcore fan of the series (ensuring more money for IS) is to get them to play and love the older games the best way to make players who cannot play the older games is to coddle them Edited August 22, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Or you get someone who goes "WTF Casual's too hard", in which case they're not going to bother finishing, let alone trying a harder difficulty. That's not the target audience, and they weren't going to be hardcore fans in the first place. Those that become hardcore fans will do so on their own. Rather than shy away from the challenge, they'll rise to it (that's just about everyone who stuck with the series before Casual was even a thing). It's not common, but it'll happen. In other words, I'd rather have that group self-select themselves. Making Casual harder, IMO, will simply turn off more of the first group, and while this is desirable to some, I don't give a flying flip about how someone completes the game (unless they shoot their mouth off about it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I think perma-death and its consequences turned off a lot of people from the game to begin with, I don't think this kind of fan is gonna be making the jump and appreciates the new stuff. Even if Casual had consequences I don't think that many people will be playing the older games or playing anything more than Casual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 i don't play on casual mode, but casual mode is there for a reason. if they want something to lose for losing units, they would play on classic in the first place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Forced sit out to recover sounds good, it worked for Thracia well you know different mechanic, but still I like that. I also think people are too swift to try to give permanent consequences to people who want to play casual mode. I think part of the reason is IS keeps saying that Classic is the way the games are meant to be played, but do nothing more outside of simply saying that; there's nothing to encourage newcomers to play it that way. Do I think there should be penalties for losing units on Casual Mode? No. But do I think there should be something to entice people to play Classic mode? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deviddo Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Casual Mode exists for those who don't like permadeath and want to continue using their units the next chapter to come, they lose the unit for the rest of the chapter and that's all the punsihment needed. I really think there should be less to experience in casual, ie blocked chapters and such made exclusive to Classic, to give incentive to move up to Classic. Debuffing the unit kinda defeats the point of bringing them back, as they already suffer as others pointed out, and doesn't really provide an incentive for Classic either. Honestly I think this is a terrible idea. What turns me off, personally, from a lot of games is the idea that you can't get the "true" ending unless you play on harder difficulties. I play on Casual because I'm comfortable with it, taking content away from me simply because I prefer a less stressful experience would really upset me, and I assume plenty of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Or you get someone who goes "WTF Casual's too hard", in which case they're not going to bother finishing, let alone trying a harder difficulty. That's not the target audience, and they weren't going to be hardcore fans in the first place. casual is not going to be significantly harder than it already is with such a small temporary penalty as -2 str/mag lol the point of the temporary penalty is to incur a psychological incentive by showing the player that death has an effect that lasts for longer than the duration of the chapter in which the unit died. it doesn't need to be a serious effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 No, let people who want to play casual mode do so without penalties for doing so. People who don't want to play on casual mode can just not go on that mode, while not trying to come up with ways to potentially spoil someone else's enjoyment of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yari Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) No. Casual is suppose to help players who are new to the series or just casual players to enjoy the game. Giving penalities for playing casual is a turn-off and very annoying. Edited August 23, 2015 by Yari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 casual is not going to be significantly harder than it already is with such a small temporary penalty as -2 str/mag lol the point of the temporary penalty is to incur a psychological incentive by showing the player that death has an effect that lasts for longer than the duration of the chapter in which the unit died. it doesn't need to be a serious effect. Given that you're the one that's far more thorough with calculations that I am, how much does a -2 to str/mag affect your strategies? I think the only stats that could probably get away with any sort of reduction would be skl/luck - speed determines doubling, str/mag determine how many rounds an enemy takes to go down, and hp/def/res determines how many rounds my unit takes before going down. In Awakening, I guzzled tonics (+2 to a given stat not named HP) like candy - most of them determined whether or not I'd kill what I needed to in a timely manner. If FE12's Rainbow Potion and star shards are any indication, the extra stats are useful. Since the player has no way of knowing what's on the next chapter on a blind playthrough (which is what I expect from someone who only has a surface-level interest in FE), they won't know whether or not having that stat reduction is going to majorly screw them over on the next map. In that situation, I'd expect someone who isn't invested in the game to give up and do something else. Perhaps such a player will never be a hardcore fan of the series with Casual as-is, but throwing in a penalty will hasten that departure. If you really want some sort of penalty, have a small gold price attached to revival - while I think 5 x displayed level would be enough (with promoted units being 20 + level), something like "the level of the unit that went poof" is sufficient. That way, the player is out of a resource, but it's not drastic enough that it alters the strategy for the next map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Casual Mode exists for those who don't like permadeath and want to continue using their units the next chapter to come, they lose the unit for the rest of the chapter and that's all the punsihment needed. Honestly I think this is a terrible idea. What turns me off, personally, from a lot of games is the idea that you can't get the "true" ending unless you play on harder difficulties. I play on Casual because I'm comfortable with it, taking content away from me simply because I prefer a less stressful experience would really upset me, and I assume plenty of others. It's a means to encourage people to try it out. You don't have to do it. But it's a way for the game to encourage playing FE the way IS says its meant to be played. It also rewards playing on the higher difficulty. You go through more to clear the higher difficulty, why should your reward not be proportioned to that? It's like endings in Touhou. They encourage moving up to the higher difficulty, you get the good ending and access to the Ex on Normal + or the fact EoSD has no Easy Stage 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Given that you're the one that's far more thorough with calculations that I am, how much does a -2 to str/mag affect your strategies? are you implying that i play like a casual every point of stat is necessary for shaving turns, but don't let's pretend that the kind of player who would be turned off by minor transient casual mode death penalties is going to care about shaving turns lol Edited August 23, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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