Casual Mode: Should there be penalties to losing units?

[dondon151]

i don't think that it's a great idea to change casual mode now, but transient penalties can be a casual mode feature on high difficulties.

[Radiant Dragon]

I could see that, kind of like how Phoenix mode is only available on Normal. Still, I think rewarding players for playing Classic is a better way to go than penalizing (no mater how minor) them for playing Casual. People just like being rewarded more than being penalized.

[electricwolf]

lol just look on /r/fireemblem at the occasional thread where someone says "help this non-FE13 game is so hard i thought i was decent at fire emblem because i played FE13 on casual"

if a player resets after unit death to fix a strategy such that the unit no longer dies, that's improvement

pffft this is totally irrelevant and the existence of casual mode doesn't affect the gameplay experience of better (not sure why you put that in quotation marks, probably because you believe that player quality doesn't exist) players at all

it's really easy to show statistically that larger sample sizes tend to converge towards the mean

hahaha nooope

look i will probably not compile scientific-publication-quality evidence to dispute your straw-grasping, but there merely exists evidence or rhetoric to dispute them

Since when are subreddits accurate sources of evidence?

You can reset and do pretty much exactly the same thing and get different results based on RNs though. And since pretty much everything is based on RNs, you can get lucky players with bad strategies do better than good strategists with bad luck.

I posted it exactly because it is irrelevant. Why are a bunch of people (who likely do not play on casual) trying to change it? It's like asking deaf people their opinion on the latest rock'n'roll anthology and what they want to change about it.

So are you saying that increasing the number of players is decreasing the quality? If so, evidence would be nice.

>accuses someone of clutching at straws

>does not actually prove said straws to be wrong

@feplus

Based on what has already been said about the effort going in to making FE13 one of the most successful recent FE installments, you could probably have inserted a graphic drawing of a dog urinating on a lamppost somewhere in FE13 and still have it sell enough to merit further FE installments. The idea that standing behind these null hypotheses is absurd, as dondon will likely tell me.

If people go back and play past FE titles and don't like the fact there is no casual mode, well, there's only two to choose from unless you're in Japan and FE7 and FE8 aren't the hardest of games by any means, FE8 in particular.

[Refa]

Huh? Pretty sure ko'd units get AP, also, unless you're talking about them getting arrested (or getting actually killed off for real, in which case they've got bigger problems than AP.)

According to the wiki*, they don't get any AP.

*"This particular feature was not continued in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift; instead, Judges revive knocked out units at the end of a battle, and those characters gain no AP for that engagement."

[Topazd]

It's the established stance of the developers that Classic mode is how they wish FE to be played. I really don't see thought experiments on how to accommodate Casual mode towards that goal as condescending.

[Deviddo]

It's the established stance of the developers that Classic mode is how they wish FE to be played. I really don't see thought experiments on how to accommodate Casual mode towards that goal as condescending.

To be fair, Normal Mode is also how most games are supposed to be played, hence Normal. Should Harder difficulties be taken out because they aren't the standard?

[Topazd]

To be fair, Normal Mode is also how most games are supposed to be played, hence Normal. Should Harder difficulties be taken out because they aren't the standard?

It's about the vision the developers have and how to achieve it - small incentivizers shouldn't be harmful. Distinctive difficulty settings have nothing to do with the matter whatsoever.

[Gradivus.]

>normal mode is how most games are supposed to play

This isn't true for FE. Most FE games that have harder modes are designed around those modes.

[Irysa]

Normal Mode in FE has basically been "Easy Mode" for a long time now.

[Jedi]

To be fair, Normal Mode is also how most games are supposed to be played, hence Normal. Should Harder difficulties be taken out because they aren't the standard?

Difficulty has nothing to do with this. Also how do you know what difficulty people are supposed to be playing on? There is a reason for multiple choices in that department in a good chunk of games. It's because people are different.

Are you going to say a proper Kingdom Hearts game shouldn't have Proud and Critical mode? For those who actually want a challenge? For a small comparison.

Casual/Classic is a different matter.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Jedi

[Snowy_One]

It's the established stance of the developers that Classic mode is how they wish FE to be played. I really don't see thought experiments on how to accommodate Casual mode towards that goal as condescending.

Yea... Except that it really is condescending. The whole reason for casual mode was so that people who were uncomfortable with losing units or new to the series would have an out, and now you're basically proposing that you punish them so that they 'git good!' It's elitism.

Player: Hey guys! I just beat this Tales game! Awesome!

Elitist: Did you beat the bonus boss? The game is meant to be 100% completed.

Player: Ummm... No. BRB... Okay! I beat the bonus boss!

Elitist: Did you beat it on unknown? That's the only REAL difficulty for the game!

Player: But he was hard enough on normal. Okay. I'll switch it to unknown. Beat him!

Elitist: Did you do it at max level? Because he was designed with people who weren't max-leveled in mind.

Player: I didn't pay attention to my level at all, but it looks like I maxed it. Okay. I'll do it again.

Elitist: And turn on 1/2 damage, and no all-divides or anything! That's how the bonus boss is MEANT to be fought!

Player: This seems awfully restrictive for how a single boss is 'meant' to be fought.

Elitist: Well... GIT GOOD!

[Topazd]

Yea... Except that it really is condescending. The whole reason for casual mode was so that people who were uncomfortable with losing units or new to the series would have an out, and now you're basically proposing that you punish them so that they 'git good!' It's elitism.

When the developers themselves come out and say they wish people would use Casual just to get a feel for the game and then move on to Classic, I'd say it's reasonable for them to implement some minuscule, temporary penalties that nonetheless get the point across.

Preferences tend to vary so there will inevitably be people that prefer Casual over Classic, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But if you - the developer - think that there is a definitive way to experience your product, advocating that way should not be something seen as offensive.

[Lord Raven]

Emphasis on battle saves.

I liked save states and Battle Saves in RD, so there's always that.

Lyn Mode-style temporary casual.

This requires some sort of story thing to happen, but sure. Maybe units taking a few chapters to respawn as opposed to immediately is a better compromise.

Large range of difficulty options (all with permadeath).

This still doesn't change the fundamental issue of the game being relatively inaccessible with permadeath. In order to make this work with permadeath, you need to make the game hideously easy.

Return of Aum staff (available early and more uses on easier difficulties).

Sure.

Difficulty-specific grinding opportunities.

So, FE13?

I still am curious to see how you can call Casual mode "rewarding" mistakes. It's not punishing which is different than rewarding; rewarding is the unit coming back with a few extra levels and maybe an extra skill.

To be fair, Normal Mode is also how most games are supposed to be played, hence Normal. Should Harder difficulties be taken out because they aren't the standard?

No, and I can make a more detailed post about this, but I'm 90% confident that FE9 was designed with Maniac mode in mind and not easy/normal mode. Edited August 26, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Jedi]

I liked save states and Battle Saves in RD, so there's always that.

I like these too as well as the map save points that Shadow Dragon and New Mystery had.

[dondon151]

Since when are subreddits accurate sources of evidence?

they support my claim that there exist players who do not develop the habits to tackle classic games after playing only casual FE13.

You can reset and do pretty much exactly the same thing and get different results based on RNs though. And since pretty much everything is based on RNs, you can get lucky players with bad strategies do better than good strategists with bad luck.

lol when i encounter someone who claims that luck trivializes all other aspects of fire emblem, that's when i know not to take seriously their opinions on fire emblem.

[Refa]

I wouldn't mind map saves ala FE11/FE12 returning in future installments of Kurashikku Modo.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Refa

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i did post earlier that casual mode needs no real punishment because its there for, well, casual players.

nothing wrong with that, but at the same time since the convo has taken this turn, i would like to point out and agree that playing on casual, let alone FE13's normal mode as it is, does not teach new players the skills needed to handle...lets say Radiant Dawn on Hard mode as an extreme example, for a more fair example, 13's lack of map quality design and casual mode wouldn't teach them how to handle something as easy as eliwood's normal mode( meanwhile us vets can breeze threw it within afew hours)

ya gotta remember that people like us that can beat Sacred Stones without seth or grinding with our eyes closed are now in the minority, we're the freaks of the fandom all of a sudden despite being here longer, that some people just don't get fire emblem as fast as we do, which is fine, everyone has a different learning growth and it takes time, i think we can say that Casual by its design alone does not help with being able to play earlier entry's, which there is nothing wrong with that either if they don't want too, its their choice and i respect that.

the only problem i have is when they want to improve themselves, but they refuse to challenge themselves so that they can get better, but this is not a problem with fire emblem or casual mode, but more of a problem with the mindset of the said player, which i don't think we can do anything about it other then linking them Shia Lebouf saying 'JUST DO IT"

so yeah, casual mode really isn't a big deal and nothing to get upset about.

Edited August 26, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[electricwolf]

they support my claim that there exist players who do not develop the habits to tackle classic games after playing only casual FE13.

lol when i encounter someone who claims that luck trivializes all other aspects of fire emblem, that's when i know not to take seriously their opinions on fire emblem.

The fact those players exist does not mean that everyone that plays Casual doesn't eventually try out other game modes, only that those specific players don't. It might be evidence, but it's incomplete.

I did not say it does trivialize everything, merely that it can. The point I was making in that post was that a player resetting would not necessarily need to fix their strategy and therefore resetting does not necessarily lead to better gameplay. I didn't say that the existence of RNs makes playing the game pointless and I would appreciate it if you could argue against points I make rather than inventing points for to argue against.

[feplus]

So, FE13?

I still am curious to see how you can call Casual mode "rewarding" mistakes. It's not punishing which is different than rewarding; rewarding is the unit coming back with a few extra levels and maybe an extra skill.

Not quite FE13. Lunatic comes close, but DLC grinding should've been removed until postgame.

Casual rewards bad play because bad play is quicker and more efficient. For example, using weak units as bait to clear a path, or blitzing enemy forces all at once.

[Lord Raven]

That sounds like a different kind of playstyle than actually bad play.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

That sounds like a different kind of playstyle than actually bad play.

if you want to be picky, bad play only involves the player screwing them self out of finishing the game, so yes, killing or "killing" off units isn't an example of bad play, as long as you are still able to beat the game.

with that said, on classic and older games continuing to do this might lead to the player eventually screwing them self out of the game, take that as you will but i think thats what feplus is trying to get at.

also look at it as playing Poker, but you never fold your hands, sure thats just a different kind of playstyle and not a "bad" playstyle, but professional's fold about 50% of all their hands for a reason.

.

Edited August 26, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Deviddo]

Calling Normal Mode "Easy Mode" is a bit incorrect isn't it? It's literally called Normal mode. I'm not trying to say that harder difficulties should LITERALLY be taken out, I was only trying to make a point. Some people prefer harder difficulties, as that is just what they're comfortable with.

It's the same thing with casual mode.

[Radiant Dragon]

Not quite FE13. Lunatic comes close, but DLC grinding should've been removed until postgame.

Casual rewards bad play because bad play is quicker and more efficient. For example, using weak units as bait to clear a path, or blitzing enemy forces all at once.

DLC is a sticky situation due to the fact that it is paid content. Pretty sure people would have complained if they couldn't use it to help them get through the hardest difficulty. In addition, it gave players who may have been having trouble on their first playthrough of Lunatic incentive to purchase the DLC when they might not have otherwise. Using the DLC is also completely optional and completely avoidable for those that do not want to use it.

I wouldn't say that this is 'bad play' on Casual mode (on Classic, sure, due to the fact that it is unsustainable except in FE11 and 12), but rather it's a strategy that becomes viable due to the inclusion of Casual mode. Although from what I've seen most people who play Casual don't play this way - rather they play Casual mode so they don't have to reset every time they lose someone, but most people I know who play Casual typically restart if they lose someone fairly early into a chapter. This strategy certainly isn't going to help someone transition into Classic, but I kind of doubt that most people intentionally sacrificing their units are even interested in trying out Classic in the first place.

No, the real question here is: Why should people be forced to play the way you want them to play? Why shouldn't I be allowed to grind on Lunatic mode if I want to, or use content that I paid extra money for? Why shouldn't I be allowed to take advantage of Casual mode's lack of permadeath if I so choose? Just because an option isn't for you doesn't mean it shouldn't be included, it just means that it's there for someone else.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Radiant Dragon

[Baldrick]

Calling Normal Mode "Easy Mode" is a bit incorrect isn't it? It's literally called Normal mode. I'm not trying to say that harder difficulties should LITERALLY be taken out, I was only trying to make a point. Some people prefer harder difficulties, as that is just what they're comfortable with.

It's the same thing with casual mode.

The Japanese RD Normal Mode is called Easy Mode in the US, so...

It's just a naming scheme. Most games have Easy/Normal/Hard, FE has Normal/Hard/Lunatic/Super Lunatic. Normal is the closest thing you have to a easy mode.

iirc the descriptions in the difficulty select screen label Normal for beginners, Hard for experienced players and Lunatic for those looking for a challenge.

[Deviddo]

The original Japanese release of MGS only had one difficulty, when ported to America, that became our "Easy" and then they just made the rest of the difficulty modes.

I could care less what the localization called it, to be honest, as that is literally not what the original Dev team called it.

I see the point you're trying to make though. I still say that it's just a matter of preference. It's been stated plenty of times so I'm sure I'm just a broken record but Casual mode is just a play style preference, as is what difficulty you play on.

I feel like a lot of Fire Emblem fans just look down on those who don't play on Classic/[Hardest Difficulty]. And that's pretty troubling, really. No matter what game I'm playing, I prefer whatever the original Dev team considered the standard difficulty, as I prefer my playthrough to be somewhat challenging yet not stressful. Casual Mode gives me a nice blend between those two, and it's what allowed me to actually get the hang of the series, I'll play games that only have Classic Mode, which I'm currently doing, but if the FE game provides me the option to play on Casual, I'll take it. It's less stressful for me. If that makes me a "Casual scrub gamer" (not your words, I know) then whatever. I have my way of playing through games, others have theirs.

I'd be pretty upset if FE15 decided to start punishing me for playing on the mode that makes me feel comfortable.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Deviddo