Worst Units and Classes

[Leif]

Well that sounds pretty amazing, but that combination requires 20/15 Elise and being adjacent to a male unit which makes it pretty situational. Adjacency- or even within two squares- for a unit that gets OHKOd means that you have to be certain that there are no enemies in range by EP.

Exactly. Camilla world be better with those skills since she has a personal skill similar to Elise's and could pick up those skills by budding with Elise. However that would require Camilla reclassing to a Maid which would somewhat hamper her usefulness for four levels.

Though, in theory, Camilla would be great with those skills since she can actually dish out damage as well as take a few hits.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Leif

[Roxachronc]

Those differences? That "overpowering defense"? That's just their class bases. If you immediately reclassed Oboro to Oni and raised them both:

20/0

Rinkah

26 HP, 15 STR, 16 SPD, 20 DEF

Oboro

31 HP, 21 STR, 16 SPD, 21 DEF

20/20 (Shura)

Rinkah

33 HP, 27 STR, 29 SPD, 36 DEF

Oboro

40 HP, 34 STR, 28 SPD, 36 DEF

Oboro, reclassed to Oni, is a better Oni than Rinkah. Rinkah's bases and growths just aren't very good.

Marrying Asama to Rinkah:

Asama 20/20 Shura

49 HP, 36 STR (41), 30 SPD, 37 DEF

Now of course Asama is good at everything, but what I am trying to convey is that while 25+20 is a usable STR growth, it doesn't mean much when almost every other character has or can have better. She also has nothing to compensate for that low STR. Her SPD and DEF are good, but not overwhelmingly so, especially when many other fast or defensive units have STR or HP as well. Her HP is so low that she can't be used defensively anyways. Moreover, unlike Hinata and his inferior growths, she doesn't even have high enough bases for her to float on until late game. She's just not up to snuff with the rest of the cast.

Rinkah is not that bad because at least her peraonal skill gives her a solid +4 in damage, of course this is much better if capped since that way rinkah outdamages almost every 1st gen with that, i think what kind of stresses me is that with a 10% more growth in strength she would be much better, IS should have gave her Villager and everyone would be happy.

[astrophys]

The only magic users worth using would be either Elise, Sakura, or Leo if we are going for an efficiency run. Then again, Jakob and Felicia outclass Elise and Sakura in the sense of being combat ready healers upon joining.

What of a +MAG Avatar? For personal growths: 45% Str and (30%+20%) = 50% Mag, as well as level 1 bases of 7 Str, 7 Mag. Also 50% spd and 45% Hp, etc.

(Of course, I haven't accounted for a flaw yet; -LCK takes away 5% each but leaves your DEF/RES intact; -DEF preserves Str/Mag but gives -5% lck/-10%def/-5% res, etc.).

Dark Blood, Dark Knight, and Grandmaster would all let you use swords (Yato) while simultaneously getting access to tomes. Even without tome access, your Avatar could instead leverage some of the magic weapons; Dragonstone is magic (but cannot double), but you do get other ones that do double, like Shinrai Naginata, Explosive Shurkien, Levin Sword, etc. Although which ones you actually get will depend on the route [Levin Sword is Nohr/3rd, for example, unless you get the MyCastle ranking rewards].

[HTakara82]

Those differences? That "overpowering defense"? That's just their class bases. If you immediately reclassed Oboro to Oni and raised them both:

20/0

Rinkah

26 HP, 15 STR, 16 SPD, 20 DEF

Oboro

31 HP, 21 STR, 16 SPD, 21 DEF

20/20 (Shura)

Rinkah

33 HP, 27 STR, 29 SPD, 36 DEF

Oboro

40 HP, 34 STR, 28 SPD, 36 DEF

Oboro, reclassed to Oni, is a better Oni than Rinkah. Rinkah's bases and growths just aren't very good.

Marrying Asama to Rinkah:

Asama 20/20 Shura

49 HP, 36 STR (41), 30 SPD, 37 DEF

Now of course Asama is good at everything, but what I am trying to convey is that while 25+20 is a usable STR growth, it doesn't mean much when almost every other character has or can have better. She also has nothing to compensate for that low STR. Her SPD and DEF are good, but not overwhelmingly so, especially when many other fast or defensive units have STR or HP as well. Her HP is so low that she can't be used defensively anyways. Moreover, unlike Hinata and his inferior growths, she doesn't even have high enough bases for her to float on until late game. She's just not up to snuff with the rest of the cast.

And for Oboro to become an Oni, she has to marry Kamui with Oni as a second class choice. And why would you even do that? And if you do, how many chapters would pass before you're even able to? By then she'll already promote to Holy Lancer with no incentive to change to a Shura/Blacksmith, And enough levels would pass that stat gains would be drastically different from what you posted.

Rinka is the only one that is a natural Oni, outside of Tsukiyomi (lol) having it as a reclass option. It requires too much work and time to use hypothetical XYZ would make a better Oni when they can't.

You're putting toooo much into minmaxing, when they have the same speed, with just a few points difference in strength, they're 2RKOing the same enemies. You're just looking at the numbers and not actual performance.

Edit: I like how you switch from Oboro, cause the difference is so stupidly small, that you can't argue anymore, and had to use one of the best physical units as a comparison.

Edited September 27, 2015 by HTakara82

[Ownagepuffs]

IIRC Nyx can't hit for shit and has bad durability, Odin gets oneshot in IK and even if he didn't his stats as a magic user are decidedly mediocre anyway

I think even if Rinka's offense stays meh, if she at least had good HP, it'd be less of a problem. That way she can just fully function as a tank and that would be okay. There's also Rinka's design being one of the buffest women we have in FE, so high strength off of that was expected. In her supports, she's also supposed to be very strong, being able to wrestle Kagerou (actually 65% base str growh here and acknowledged as physically powerful in Suzukaze's support) to a draw. Like with Sully before her, there's a disparity between what her gameplay ends up being and what she is in-story, except in Sully's case her growths are good enough and it's just her caps that are questionable.

The low HP is a pretty big issue considering she's supposed to be tanky. Even with Oni padding it's only 40%, and if you go Shura it inexplicably drops 10%. A low-offense but high tank unit would be pretty balanced, but with her poor HP, her defensive prowess isn't shining through as much as it could be.

Rinka's durability is actually really high in spite of her HP. If you tossed her the C7 Seraph and gave her tonics she'd sit at like, 30 HP/12 Defense at base. As far as early game is concerned, she's immortal. Her biggest issue really is her low offense. Having just enough durability and ORKOing is just so much more preferable to having a lot of durability and leaving enemies alive and her pair up bonuses are so slamming that she's usually a power up before she is a front liner. It's a shame that Oboro is literally everything Rinka wants to be and more.

Funny thing about Sully. Yeah, her mods don't mesh with her personality but at least her growths do. Meanwhile Stahl is supposed to be Mr. Average yet he has 90% HP/60% Defense lol. Sorry for going off topic.

Elise herself is not better than Nyx, but she offers amazing skills: Beautiful Flower + Demoiselle + Battle Command = +3 damage -7 hurt for male units.

Elise is about a million times better than Nyx because staves, Availability, horse, and good personal skill > mediocre combat.

Edit: wrt magic, you could say it's like the new Sniper where the class isn't bad but the people in it tend to be. If you put someone good in a magic class (Kamui/Leo), then they really bring the best out of it.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Pokechu]

uhh this is gonna sound dumb (and it may be offtopic)

but how can people predict the statgains a character will have

like that's some high technology

[riolumaster]

Rinka's durability is actually really high in spite of her HP. If you tossed her the C7 Seraph and gave her tonics she'd sit at like, 30 HP/12 Defense at base. As far as early game is concerned, she's immortal. Her biggest issue really is her low offense. Having just enough durability and ORKOing is just so much more preferable to having a lot of durability and leaving enemies alive and her pair up bonuses are so slamming that she's usually a power up before she is a front liner. It's a shame that Oboro is literally everything Rinka wants to be and more.

Funny thing about Sully. Yeah, her mods don't mesh with her personality but at least her growths do. Meanwhile Stahl is supposed to be Mr. Average yet he has 90% HP/60% Defense lol. Sorry for going off topic.

Elise is about a million times better than Nyx because staves, Availability, horse, and good personal skill > mediocre combat.

Edit: wrt magic, you could say it's like the new Sniper where the class isn't bad but the people in it tend to be. If you put someone good in a magic class (Kamui/Leo), then they really bring the best out of it.

Elise also has natural access to better skills such as Overbearing and Deadly Breath.

[Ownagepuffs]

uhh this is gonna sound dumb (and it may be offtopic)

but how can people predict the statgains a character will have

like that's some high technology

They are calculating averages.

Elise also has natural access to better skills such as Overbearing and Deadly Breath.

Sure you could do that but Elise would still be dealing with E tomes lol.

[gayserbeam]

And for Oboro to become an Oni, she has to marry Kamui with Oni as a second class choice. And why would you even do that? And if you do, how many chapters would pass before you're even able to? By then she'll already promote to Holy Lancer with no incentive to change to a Shura/Blacksmith, And enough levels would pass that stat gains would be drastically different from what you posted.

Rinka is the only one that is a natural Oni, outside of Tsukiyomi (lol) having it as a reclass option. It requires too much work and time to use hypothetical XYZ would make a better Oni when they can't.

You're putting toooo much into minmaxing, when they have the same speed, with just a few points difference in strength, they're 2RKOing the same enemies. You're just looking at the numbers and not actual performance.

Edit: I like how you switch from Oboro, cause the difference is so stupidly small, that you can't argue anymore, and had to use one of the best physical units as a comparison.

Oboro can A+ with Rinkah for Oni. With both of their early availability, Rinkah can be used as a pair-up partner to Kaze, Oboro, Asama, Jakob, Kamui or Silas and easily have an S/A support with them by mid-game, letting them reclass just before or just after promotion levels. This isn't some crazy hypothetical, either; Rinkah's useful pair-up stats mean that in early game you will often be well served by gluing her in Guard Stance to a physical unit and she'll easily have an A+ or S Support as early as Chapter 13. With the value of the Oni class' stat boosts and skills, you'll want to pass her class over to someone as soon as possible, and every unit who joins before Chapter 13 who she can pass the class to has higher strength except for Orochi and Tsubaki (who are also frequently assaulted on this thread).

So tell me which physical unit in Hoshido isn't better than Rinkah?

-Jakob has immediate availability, utility as a debuffer and healer, can be reclassed to GK to be an immediately useful tank

-Kaze has higher SPD, STR and HP than Rinkah, has 1-2 range, gives SPD and MOV on pair-up, and if you wanted an Oni he could pair up with Rinkah and have Oni by chapter 12 or so

-Azura can refresh units

-Silas has higher HP, STR and RES than Rinkah, equal SKL, and only marginal differences in SPD, and DEF. He starts with 7 MOV, too, and if you wanted to pair him up with Rinkah to increase his STR and DEF he could have Oni by chapter 14 or so (although he doesn't even need it).

-Mozume beats Rinkah in HP, STR, SPD and RES and after Aptitude she beats her in absolutely every stat. She has natural access to Line of Death, Strength Seal and Extravagance, and can reclass to Bowman for immediate utility

-Hana has higher HP, STR, SPD and RES. She's terriblly fragile but with Flowing Strike and her stat spread she can reliably kill enemies on Player Phase

-Saizou has higher HP, STR, MAG, SKL, and LCK, equivalent DEF (although not in his base class) and in their base classes Saizou has only slightly less SPD than Rinkah and more RES.

-Hinkoka beats Rinkah in every stat except for SKL and DEF. Even in their base classes, Hinoka has higher STR and HP, and Hinoka's classes don't boost those stat growths by 20 like Rinkah's do

-Asama is good at everything

-Setsuna isn't exactly top-tier, but as proven a few pages back, her access to bows, Prescience and eventually Bowfaire means her low STR will never matter, and unlike Rinkah she doesn't need to get hit to activate her damage boost

-Tsukyomi also isn't incredible, but his HP and offensive stats are better Rinkah in both his base class and reclassed to Oni

-It's already been demonstrated that Oboro will have higher STR and HP regardless whether she stays a Lance Fighter or becomes an Oni

-Well Hinata and Tsubaki are pretty I guess

-Takumi joins immediately useful with a strong PRF weapon, and higher HP, STR, SKL than Rinkah and only 5% less SPD

-Kagerou beats Rinkah across the board except for DEF, which she doesn't need nearly as much because of 1-2 range. And if you were tired of all these Ninjas you could reclass her to Oni by an A+ with Rinkah and have an Oni who could actually approach her STR cap

-Nishiki beats Rinkah in HP, STR and RES and his weapons boost his stats, he also naturally learn skills that give him an effective bonus on Beast units and skills that heal him

-Ryoma beats Rinkah everywhere but DEF (which still isn't low) and has a 1-2 range PRF weapon that has no drawbacks and raises his STR by 4

If you wanted to make a case for Rinkah being more useful than Tsubaki or Hinata or the Kamuisexuals, then by all means, I'd agree. But she's simply not as good as anyone else. Yes, she's useable, and her class growths try their best to cover up her awful base growths. Yet she has a laundry list of natural problems: her HP is awful and her class growths don't patch it well enough, her class gives a 20% STR growth boost but her base growth is so low that most units have higher base STR growth and almost all physical attackers have higher STR after their own class growths, her access to Counter and her personal skill would work much better on a high-HP average-DEF unit yet she has high-DEF and pathetic HP, and her SKL and SPD are actually around the average for Hoshido.

"Worst" is a relative term, and relative to the rest of the Hoshido cast, she sits among the very bottom.

Edited September 27, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Duke of Dozel]

Say if Benoit gets Defensive Formation. Could he still double with a brave lance?

[GoXDS]

Say if Benoit gets Defensive Formation. Could he still double with a brave lance?

Doubling is different from Brave x2, hence you can get x4

[Dark Sage]

I think people aren't judging characters properly here.

First off, there's way too much focus on growths and 20/20 stats and not enough focus on actual ingame use. Bases are more important than growths 90% of the time. Furthermore the bulk of character comparisons have been done by simply comparing characters at 20/1 or 20/20 and calling it a day. This doesn't work because units do not grow at the same rate in practice.

For example, Rinka's almost always better off as a pair up bot, but since Rinka's constantly in the back, she doesn't gain exp, which retards her growth, which makes it harder to gain levels and improve. You can let her take poibt occassionally but often it's better to just let her partner (like say, Tsubaki) take point, plus she still gains exp more slowly. She doesn't look unsalvageable or anything, but she strikes me as being in the same ballpark as someone like Lott or Dorcas: useful early on with some utility but not a good choice for long term use.

I also don't buy Tsubaki or Hinata being bad. Tsubaki has fairly good bases and he comes with Swallow Strike; Nohr enemies are usually slower than Hoshido ones, so Tsubaki doesn't actually have many problems doubling. He's also bulkier than a lot of your other units and has great move and can fly. All of these factors are great, but all of them combined make him one of the best candidates for a reource dump because he gives you a better pay off than most other units. I'd certainly use him over Hana or Tsukuyomi.

Hinata also looks alright to me. His bases are genuinely excellent; an instant promoted Hinata can apparently rape face on his starting map and his base speed + promo bonuses will still be sufficient to double lategame and tonics can keep him going further. If you're using him, he's going to be gaining levels and while his speed growth as a swordmaster isn't great, he'll still likely pick up a few points in speed and he still has good concrete bulk, Flowing Strike, and high strength so he should be fine lategame. I don't think he's high tier or anything but he's definitely not low tier and I'd say he is very likely better than Hana, who's like Edward if Edward randomly got oneshotted lategame even after all his training.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Dark Sage

[astrophys]

Yes, you're right; 20/1 or 20/20 aren't terribly relevant if the character never approaches it.

Even 20/20 Avatar stats don't matter so much as how the Avatar preforms with their asset/flaw at each individual point in the game getting up to that. And even if they get up to that, that only comes in really for fighting some of the final battles of the game.

And while the Avatar is more likely to reach that point than others thanks to Noble Lineage (I'd guess), that doesn't mean he/she will, much less the others.

I'm guilty of 20/20 analysis as I don't have the game yet and thus don't fully have a feel for how characters actually behave in practice.

I do think that Tsubaki could be useful, that said, for similar reasons, and indeed some other users have also made the same suggestion that you have that Tsubaki would be a good resource dump candidate. I might be getting it wrong, but if I recall correctly Ownagepuffs suggested this on the Fire Emblem subreddit.

With regards to the Hoshido route, here are the stat boosters I've been told about by other users and sources (like the translator wordpress site); these are the ones from the main game, not ones from grinding battles.

Shared:

Chapter 4 - Goddess Icon - Visit Houses

Hoshido:

Chapter 7 - Seraph Robe - Chest

Chapter 8 - Secret Book - Dropped

Chapter 9 - Speed Wing - Chest

Chapter 11 - Arms Scroll - Dropped

Chapter 12 - Dracoshield - Chest

Chapter 13 - Spirit Dust - Visit Houses

Chapter 13 - Talisman - Visit Houses

Chapter 15 - Speedwing - Dropped

Chapter 15 - Spirit Dust - Dropped

Chapter 15 - Secret Book - Dropped

Chapter 16 - Arms Scroll - Chest

Chapter 20 - Seraph Robe - Chest

Chapter 20 - Boots - Chest

Chapter 20 - Goddess Icon - Dropped

Chapter 22 - Dracoshield - Dropped

Chapter 23 - Talisman - Dropped

Chapter 25 - Boots - Chest

So there is an early Speedwing 2 chapters after he joins, and quite an abundance of stat boosters.

EDIT:

Tsubaki's bases are (for reference):

Level 5, 22 HP, 8 Str, 0 Mag, 13 Skl, 10 Spd, 7 Lck, 9 Def, 10 Res, 7 Move

As for Invisible Kingdom (3rd route):

Chapter 10 - Arms Scroll - Dropped

Chapter 10 - Energy Drop - Dropped

Chapter 10 - Secret Book - Dropped

Chapter 21 - Boots - Chest

Chapter 21 - Arms Scroll - Chest

Chapter 24 - Boots - Reward for stealth

IK seems quite deficient in stat boosters, although I should mention that if you buy one extra route [which by definition, you have already done by getting the 3rd route DLC] you get a stat booster that gives +1 to most stats, to my understanding, and you get a second one by having all the routes… so if you've already done Hoshido and Nohr, you could have two such stat boosters…. but overall they're much more in limited supply accordion to what I've been told.

Edited September 27, 2015 by astrophys

[Ownagepuffs]

Lol Hana's bulk issue is so hilariously overblown. I actually did some testing a while back what she could do with the C7 Seraph in conjunction with tonics. She ends up being 4-6RKO'd by a majority of enemy types early on. The C9 Cavaliers would still 3RKO her along with stronger enemy types like the C10 lancers but Sorcs and thieves do close to nothing and anything with an axe hates her. Also, the only enemy types that can potentially OHKO her is Generals, the final boss, and maybe Great Knights. Also the 52 Atk Zerkers in C9 but they have 15HP and she has WTA. If you compare base Hana to endgame enemies yeah she'll get one shotted like no duh. Where did this myth even come from?

Funny thing is Hana is like, 3 levels on average to meet Hinata's base Str and 4 levels away to match his base speed so it makes no sense to praise Hinata's bases and bash hers.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[-Cynthia-]

Hinata's bases seem all right, but not really 'excellent'- he's +1 HP. -2 Str, -2 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Def, -4 Res compared to Oboro for instance, who's generally regarded as a good/decent but not particularly great unit. Combined with his 15% Spd growth (35% Str isn't that great either honestly) and he does seem rather underwhelming.

Hard to say without Lunatic stats I guess, but I'm dubious that 17 Spd(Instapromoted Trueblade Hinata) really goes that far.

[HTakara82]

Oboro can A+ with Rinkah for Oni. With both of their early availability, Rinkah can be used as a pair-up partner to Kaze, Oboro, Asama, Jakob, Kamui or Silas and easily have an S/A support with them by mid-game, letting them reclass just before or just after promotion levels. This isn't some crazy hypothetical, either; Rinkah's useful pair-up stats mean that in early game you will often be well served by gluing her in Guard Stance to a physical unit and she'll easily have an A+ or S Support as early as Chapter 13. With the value of the Oni class' stat boosts and skills, you'll want to pass her class over to someone as soon as possible, and every unit who joins before Chapter 13 who she can pass the class to has higher strength except for Orochi and Tsubaki (who are also frequently assaulted on this thread).

So tell me which physical unit in Hoshido isn't better than Rinkah?

-Jakob has immediate availability, utility as a debuffer and healer, can be reclassed to GK to be an immediately useful tank

-Kaze has higher SPD, STR and HP than Rinkah, has 1-2 range, gives SPD and MOV on pair-up, and if you wanted an Oni he could pair up with Rinkah and have Oni by chapter 12 or so

-Azura can refresh units

-Silas has higher HP, STR and RES than Rinkah, equal SKL, and only marginal differences in SPD, and DEF. He starts with 7 MOV, too, and if you wanted to pair him up with Rinkah to increase his STR and DEF he could have Oni by chapter 14 or so (although he doesn't even need it).

-Mozume beats Rinkah in HP, STR, SPD and RES and after Aptitude she beats her in absolutely every stat. She has natural access to Line of Death, Strength Seal and Extravagance, and can reclass to Bowman for immediate utility

-Hana has higher HP, STR, SPD and RES. She's terriblly fragile but with Flowing Strike and her stat spread she can reliably kill enemies on Player Phase

-Saizou has higher HP, STR, MAG, SKL, and LCK, equivalent DEF (although not in his base class) and in their base classes Saizou has only slightly less SPD than Rinkah and more RES.

-Hinkoka beats Rinkah in every stat except for SKL and DEF. Even in their base classes, Hinoka has higher STR and HP, and Hinoka's classes don't boost those stat growths by 20 like Rinkah's do

-Asama is good at everything

-Setsuna isn't exactly top-tier, but as proven a few pages back, her access to bows, Prescience and eventually Bowfaire means her low STR will never matter, and unlike Rinkah she doesn't need to get hit to activate her damage boost

-Tsukyomi also isn't incredible, but his HP and offensive stats are better Rinkah in both his base class and reclassed to Oni

-It's already been demonstrated that Oboro will have higher STR and HP regardless whether she stays a Lance Fighter or becomes an Oni

-Well Hinata and Tsubaki are pretty I guess

-Takumi joins immediately useful with a strong PRF weapon, and higher HP, STR, SKL than Rinkah and only 5% less SPD

-Kagerou beats Rinkah across the board except for DEF, which she doesn't need nearly as much because of 1-2 range. And if you were tired of all these Ninjas you could reclass her to Oni by an A+ with Rinkah and have an Oni who could actually approach her STR cap

-Nishiki beats Rinkah in HP, STR and RES and his weapons boost his stats, he also naturally learn skills that give him an effective bonus on Beast units and skills that heal him

-Ryoma beats Rinkah everywhere but DEF (which still isn't low) and has a 1-2 range PRF weapon that has no drawbacks and raises his STR by 4

If you wanted to make a case for Rinkah being more useful than Tsubaki or Hinata or the Kamuisexuals, then by all means, I'd agree. But she's simply not as good as anyone else. Yes, she's useable, and her class growths try their best to cover up her awful base growths. Yet she has a laundry list of natural problems: her HP is awful and her class growths don't patch it well enough, her class gives a 20% STR growth boost but her base growth is so low that most units have higher base STR growth and almost all physical attackers have higher STR after their own class growths, her access to Counter and her personal skill would work much better on a high-HP average-DEF unit yet she has high-DEF and pathetic HP, and her SKL and SPD are actually around the average for Hoshido.

"Worst" is a relative term, and relative to the rest of the Hoshido cast, she sits among the very bottom.

Now you're just going all over the place. Not only talking about offense, but bringing in support units as a comparison, that's just stupid.

But I'll bite with your comparison

Jacob: LMFAO! seriously? 25 base growth on defense with a 7 base stat, you can't be serious, if you think that's a good tank.

Kaze: Ninja's have low atk by nature, due to their weapon typing, and staying as a ninja only gives him a 45% growth, equivalent to Rinka, but due to weapon typing he hits for less. Even if you reclass him to Samurai, that'll only put him at 5% higher str, not something I'd fap over.

Azura: not even going to touch this one, not even comparing damage output, and even if we are, she has MC syndrome of really good bases all around.

Silas: He has good growths, no arguing there.

Hana: As you mentioned, terrible durability, is a liability for awhile, due to the fact that she can't take a hit, and RNG works against the player this time around. And she'll probably be fragile, Until she builds up enough speed to dodge reliably you never want to put her in a compromising situation.

Saizo, same situation as Kaze, except considering how bad his base speed is, he won't as reliably doubling as well as Kaze. His classes will prevent him from doing any insane damage. Like Kaze, better as a support attacker than a primary attacker.

Hinoka: lol Royal, not even worth trying to compare

Setsuna: lmfao, you give her a pass, despite her crap growths? okay, double standard much?

Tsukiyomi: Yeah he'd actually make a better Oni, but how long before you can even get a parallel seal to switch to one? by then despite his growths, his starting stat would be too low to even make up the difference.

Takumi: again, royal

Kagerou: Yup she's beast, there's no denying it

Nishiki: Beast units, have great stats all around, but lol lock to one range.

Ryoma: stop bringing royals into this, they destroy everyone.

[Leif]

What of a +MAG Avatar? For personal growths: 45% Str and (30%+20%) = 50% Mag, as well as level 1 bases of 7 Str, 7 Mag. Also 50% spd and 45% Hp, etc.

(Of course, I haven't accounted for a flaw yet; -LCK takes away 5% each but leaves your DEF/RES intact; -DEF preserves Str/Mag but gives -5% lck/-10%def/-5% res, etc.).

Dark Blood, Dark Knight, and Grandmaster would all let you use swords (Yato) while simultaneously getting access to tomes. Even without tome access, your Avatar could instead leverage some of the magic weapons; Dragonstone is magic (but cannot double), but you do get other ones that do double, like Shinrai Naginata, Explosive Shurkien, Levin Sword, etc. Although which ones you actually get will depend on the route [Levin Sword is Nohr/3rd, for example, unless you get the MyCastle ranking rewards].

Yes, but to me, it seems like IS wanted the Avatar to be more physically and support based than a magic unit. White Blood seems to outclass both the Dark Knight and Grandmaster. White Blood has better max stats and, since the Avatar has access to the convey, can instantly whip out a staff in a crisis.

Grandmaster doesn't have stellar luck and the Dark Knight has horrible speed as well as an added weakness (horse).

If I am not mistaken, the Avatar doesn't want to have an added weakness since he/she already is a 'dragon' unit like a Manakete and is weak to Wyrmslayers.

Say if Benoit gets Defensive Formation. Could he still double with a brave lance?

Yes, he will only attack twice on the player phase and once on the enemy phase.

[Gwimpage]

Chapter 10 - Arms Scroll - Dropped

Chapter 10 - Energy Drop - Dropped

Chapter 10 - Secret Book - Dropped

Chapter 21 - Boots - Chest

Chapter 21 - Arms Scroll - Chest

Chapter 24 - Boots - Reward for stealth

You actually obtain one of each statbooster (sans Boots and Divine Hurb) in Chapter 10. It's really stupid because the enemies are all hiding in ice and the armor carrying the Speedwing is in a 1x1 breakable area.

[Rizziah]

I'm dropping in to uh...whatever this is

https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/hiushi/FE14AverageStats/blob/master/index.html

"You might be interested in this"

Well it's weird, since I've known this for like 2 months by now, so who knows......

:o

This is very helpful, thank you.

[Tooru]

Exactly. Camilla world be better with those skills since she has a personal skill similar to Elise's and could pick up those skills by budding with Elise. However that would require Camilla reclassing to a Maid which would somewhat hamper her usefulness for four levels.

Though, in theory, Camilla would be great with those skills since she can actually dish out damage as well as take a few hits.

When Camilla is taking damage, she is wasting these skills.

When Elise is triggering these skills, Camilla is wasting them.

After 4 levels as a Strategist, your Camilla will be better than a Camilla with no skills. Why there is a Camilla with no skills? I don't know.

Maybe the topic is about "bad" so we have to remove good skills to make her a bad unit?

Edited September 27, 2015 by Tooru

[gayserbeam]

Now you're just going all over the place. Not only talking about offense, but bringing in support units as a comparison, that's just stupid.

But I'll bite with your comparison

Jacob: LMFAO! seriously? 25 base growth on defense with a 7 base stat, you can't be serious, if you think that's a good tank.

Kaze: Ninja's have low atk by nature, due to their weapon typing, and staying as a ninja only gives him a 45% growth, equivalent to Rinka, but due to weapon typing he hits for less. Even if you reclass him to Samurai, that'll only put him at 5% higher str, not something I'd fap over.

Azura: not even going to touch this one, not even comparing damage output, and even if we are, she has MC syndrome of really good bases all around.

Silas: He has good growths, no arguing there.

Hana: As you mentioned, terrible durability, is a liability for awhile, due to the fact that she can't take a hit, and RNG works against the player this time around. And she'll probably be fragile, Until she builds up enough speed to dodge reliably you never want to put her in a compromising situation.

Saizo, same situation as Kaze, except considering how bad his base speed is, he won't as reliably doubling as well as Kaze. His classes will prevent him from doing any insane damage. Like Kaze, better as a support attacker than a primary attacker.

Hinoka: lol Royal, not even worth trying to compare

Setsuna: lmfao, you give her a pass, despite her crap growths? okay, double standard much?

Tsukiyomi: Yeah he'd actually make a better Oni, but how long before you can even get a parallel seal to switch to one? by then despite his growths, his starting stat would be too low to even make up the difference.

Takumi: again, royal

Kagerou: Yup she's beast, there's no denying it

Nishiki: Beast units, have great stats all around, but lol lock to one range.

Ryoma: stop bringing royals into this, they destroy everyone.

First of all you can get a Parallel Seal immediately when you get My Castle. You'll have multiple Parallel Seals before you have Tsukuyomi. And with Jakob, you aren't considering class bases at all; when reclassed to GK he will have 12 DEF and 24 HP, and even with his low growth his DEF will still be higher than Rinkah's until she promotes.

What I was trying to demonstrate here is that Rinkah is among the "worst" because with all of these viable units and their children she doesn't have any reason to take a spot on your team.

You get 16 units in the endgame in Hoshido. You're using Kamui. You probably want to bring Azura. You're using the royals. We've acknowledged that Silas, Kagerou, Oboro, Mozume, Asama, Tsukuyomi and Nishiki all have more to offer than Rinkah. That's 13. So unless you absolutely never want to use children, I don't see why you would waste EXP on Rinkah.

I feel like we are arguing different things here. Rinkah is useable! But ignoring children and Kamuisexuals there are 23 playable characters, and of them one is the main character, four are royals, one is your dancer, two are valuable prepromoted healers you get early on and seven we've acknowledged as excellent units. With Kaze's utility as a Ninja and a required A-Support before chapter 15, you'll want to use him, too. So that puts Rinkah at best in the bottom 7. That makes her one of the "worst" units. You can point out everyone else's weak points, you can try to tell me that the royals "don't count", you can explain how to make her functional, but that doesn't change the fact that "worst" means "least good" and that applies to her very well. You can make her work, but you can make anyone work, and every character has been balanced to be useable. That doesn't change the fact that she faces fierce competition from more than half of the Hoshido cast who have more balanced growths or more utility.

[HTakara82]

First of all you can get a Parallel Seal immediately when you get My Castle. You'll have multiple Parallel Seals before you have Tsukuyomi. And with Jakob, you aren't considering class bases at all; when reclassed to GK he will have 12 DEF and 24 HP, and even with his low growth his DEF will still be higher than Rinkah's until she promotes.

What I was trying to demonstrate here is that Rinkah is among the "worst" because with all of these viable units and their children she doesn't have any reason to take a spot on your team.

You get 16 units in the endgame in Hoshido. You're using Kamui. You probably want to bring Azura. You're using the royals. We've acknowledged that Silas, Kagerou, Oboro, Mozume, Asama, Tsukuyomi and Nishiki all have more to offer than Rinkah. That's 13. So unless you absolutely never want to use children, I don't see why you would waste EXP on Rinkah.

I feel like we are arguing different things here. Rinkah is useable! But ignoring children and Kamuisexuals there are 23 playable characters, and of them one is the main character, four are royals, one is your dancer, two are valuable prepromoted healers you get early on and seven we've acknowledged as excellent units. With Kaze's utility as a Ninja and a required A-Support before chapter 15, you'll want to use him, too. So that puts Rinkah at best in the bottom 7. That makes her one of the "worst" units. You can point out everyone else's weak points, you can try to tell me that the royals "don't count", you can explain how to make her functional, but that doesn't change the fact that "worst" means "least good" and that applies to her very well. You can make her work, but you can make anyone work, and every character has been balanced to be useable. That doesn't change the fact that she faces fierce competition from more than half of the Hoshido cast who have more balanced growths or more utility.

The differences are so negligible in most cases that there's no reason to not use her. As I've already proven for instance, the difference between Oboro and Rinka are so stupidly small that you won't even notice the difference. Tsukiyomi is trash, as a magic user, even if you parallel seal him right away, he'll start out with E in clubs, ultimately making him worst and with his base strength, even with the class swap to Oni, he'll still be worst than Rinka several levels later. And everyone says Mozume is trash until you baby her for awhile. And then parallel her out of villager.

No matter what, pointing out everyones weakness is an extremely valid argument. Especially since your point of the argument is pointing out Rinka's weakness. Don't be two faced about it. The road goes both ways. Royals don't count because they are a given, if for whatever reason you don't want to use them, they're pretty much a guarantee spot in the army due to stupid growths and bases. So using them as a point of argument is stupid. It's the other slots that we are concerned about.

Utility is overrated, more times than not, it's better to power your way through enemies than to have someone chip damage and debuff.

And who's to say the player would even have Jacob in the beginning? I'm certainly not, I'll be playing male every playthrough. And by the time you can parallel him into GK, Rinka wouldve already caught up maybe even surpass his stats as a great knight.

[Tooru]

Tsukiyomi is trash, as a magic user, even if you parallel seal him right away, he'll start out with E in clubs, ultimately making him worst and with his base strength, even with the class swap to Oni, he'll still be worst than Rinka several levels later. And everyone says Mozume is trash until you baby her for awhile. And then parallel her out of villager.

"He'll start out with E in clubs"

You are saying that an oni with E in clubs is bad, right? So Rinkah must be bad for you XD.

"with his base strength"

1 -> 7 Str as a 1/0 oni.

50% Str growth as an oni -> about 8 Str as a 3/0 oni.

Rinkah is a 4/0 oni with 8 Str.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Tooru

[gayserbeam]

The differences are so negligible in most cases that there's no reason to not use her. As I've already proven for instance, the difference between Oboro and Rinka are so stupidly small that you won't even notice the difference.

You proved that Oboro always has a lead of 5-8 HP, 3-8 STR, and the same SPD. That's not negligible at all.

and Tsukiyomi is trash, as a magic user,

You say that Rinkah is good with her 45% adjusted offense growth and 55% adjusted speed growth, but complain about Tsukuyomi with his 55% adjusted offense growth and his 60% adjusted speed growth.

even if you parallel seal him right away, he'll start out with E in clubs, ultimately making him worst and with his base strength, even with the class swap to Oni, he'll still be worst than Rinka several levels later.

Tsukuyomi starts with 1 STR, at level 1. After using the Parallel Seal, he'll have 7 STR. They'll have the same STR by the point Tsukuyomi reaches level 9, and he'll be stronger than her from then on. He also starts with 4 DEF, meaning he has 10 DEF as an Oni, which is the same as what Rinkah starts with, except she is 3 levels ahead of him.

E-Rank also doesn't matter at all early-game because you won't crit anyway and it takes only one gem to stick two Bronze Clubs together to make a Bronze Axe +1 which has more might than an Iron Club.

And everyone says Mozume is trash until you baby her for awhile. And then parallel her out of villager.

Immediately reclassed to Bowman, Mozume is one of the most useful units in the game, and with bows "babying" her is incredibly easy and she'll have the luxury of getting Prescience and the highest-might weapon type in the game so her strength doesn't matter nearly as much. Nobody says that, and I've use Mozume in every playthrough.

Royals don't count because they are a given, if for whatever reason you don't want to use them, they're pretty much a guarantee spot in the army due to stupid growths and bases. So using them as a point of argument is stupid. It's the other slots that we are concerned about.

That just makes Rinkah's case worse. We have one avatar, one dancer, four "guarenteed spots" and at least seven units who are objectively better than Rinkah so I don't know about you but I'd much rather leave those final spots to child characters.

Utility is overrated, more times than not, it's better to power your way through enemies than to have someone chip damage and debuff.

In these particular cases I was talking about Locktouch, Snake Venom, Staves, ranged weapons that can actually double. I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Edited September 27, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Thor Odinson]

wrt Tsukuyomi how good are the enemy avo in the game? I put him as Shura through the stat calculator and while his HP/Str/Def ends up better his Skill is...pretty bad. And while 20/20 stats aren't usually the best things for comparison he starts with 2 skill and ends with like 13

But if that's still enough to hit enemies reliably, well.

Man why can't Rinka just get Asama's growths or something that'd be lovely

Edited September 27, 2015 by Thor Odinson