Worst Units and Classes

[Tooru]

E-Rank also doesn't matter at all early-game because you won't crit anyway and it takes only one gem to stick two Bronze Clubs together to make a Bronze Axe +1 which has more might than an Iron Club.

I think E-Rank matters and makes Rinkah worse: everyone knows that Rinkah starts with E-rank.

[astrophys]

I don't know all of the Avoid stats in the game, but the Hard/Lunatic 3rd route final boss has 70 avoid [31 speed, 28 luck, +10 avoid from its weapon] from what I've seen in playthrough videos and the Hard Hoshido Final boss has 69 avoid.

So, for example, a 20/20 +MAG/-DEF Dark Knight Avatar [there are better options, of course, but its one I've done the calculations for] has around 25 Skill and 24 Luck on average. With an 85 hit Yato, that makes his hit rate against the final boss around 64% (25*1.5+24*0.5 +85 - 70); Bind (learned from Dark Mage, which means all Dark Knights that have gained at least one level in the class will know it) would bring it up to 84%.

Of course, this is ignoring the boosts of attack stance support bonuses, tonics, stat boosters, etc.

Obviously, a class with higher skill growth would outperform this, but the 20 avoid reduction gives a similar accuracy boost to gaining 13.333 Skl, (13.333333 ~ 40/3; 40/3 * 3/2 = 20). You can't have fractional skill, so you'd need 14 more skill to replace Bind if you weren't using a skill for your accuracy in order to get comparable hit rates [39 skill and 24 luck plus Yato minus 70 avoid, no Bind --> 85.5% hit] . Alternatively you might want Raven Strike or Flamboyant. [Flamboyant in this case gives you a 30% accuracy boost and 15% proc rates; the boss doesn't have a proc, although you're also helping it hit you; Raven Strike gives you +40 hit, but only in the player phase]

[HTakara82]

You proved that Oboro always has a lead of 5-8 HP, 3-8 STR, and the same SPD. That's not negligible at all.

You say that Rinkah is good with her 45% adjusted offense growth and 55% adjusted speed growth, but complain about Tsukuyomi with his 55% adjusted offense growth and his 60% adjusted speed growth.

Tsukuyomi starts with 1 STR, at level 1. After using the Parallel Seal, he'll have 7 STR. They'll have the same STR by the point Tsukuyomi reaches level 9, and he'll be stronger than her from then on. He also starts with 4 DEF, meaning he has 10 DEF as an Oni, which is the same as what Rinkah starts with, except she is 3 levels ahead of him.

E-Rank also doesn't matter at all early-game because you won't crit anyway and it takes only one gem to stick two Bronze Clubs together to make a Bronze Axe +1 which has more might than an Iron Club.

Immediately reclassed to Bowman, Mozume is one of the most useful units in the game, and with bows "babying" her is incredibly easy and she'll have the luxury of getting Prescience and the highest-might weapon type in the game so her strength doesn't matter nearly as much. Nobody says that, and I've use Mozume in every playthrough.

That just makes Rinkah's case worse. We have one avatar, one dancer, four "guarenteed spots" and at least seven units who are objectively better than Rinkah so I don't know about you but I'd much rather leave those final spots to child characters.

In these particular cases I was talking about Locktouch, Snake Venom, Staves, ranged weapons that can actually double. I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

8 STR lead? when? if you marry her to Kamui and parallel her to an Oni at lvl 10? how is that even feasible? in normal circumstances, she only has a 3 to 4 point strength lead, in which case Rinka freaking closes with her personal skill.

And for the love of god stop moving the goal post, you place Rinka having a E rank in clubs as a negative towards her, but if it's with someone else, it's not a negative. And Tsukiyomi joins like 2 chapters later than Rinka, if you're using her, which there is no reason not to early on, as your choices are limited, she'll gain a good 4 levels or so before he even joins, the gap would be even bigger. She'd gain at least 2 to 3 points in STR by the time he joins and grants you the ability to parallel. And like others mentioned he has terrible skill growths, and Oni has 0 in skill growth, so he's working with a very low accuracy, he won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

And nobody says Mozume is garbage at first? what rock have you been hiding under? She joins in paralogue 1 which is available after chapter 4, which is only 1 chapter away from getting Rinka, and she starts as level 1 with low stats, she needs babysitting for a good few chapters before she can handle her own. She'll need at least a good 5 levels or so before that can happen.

Edited September 27, 2015 by HTakara82

[Ownagepuffs]

Hinata's bases seem all right, but not really 'excellent'- he's +1 HP. -2 Str, -2 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Def, -4 Res compared to Oboro for instance, who's generally regarded as a good/decent but not particularly great unit. Combined with his 15% Spd growth (35% Str isn't that great either honestly) and he does seem rather underwhelming.

Hard to say without Lunatic stats I guess, but I'm dubious that 17 Spd(Instapromoted Trueblade Hinata) really goes that far.

Your standards are incredibly high.

That being said, 17 Spd really does go that far, especially when factoring in potential tonics and pair up. Here's a reference on a chapter I'm on. C14 Paladins have 16 Spd. The cavaliers have 10. Thieves have 15. Hoshido doesn't have fast enemies. The faceless in C20 aren't even fast.

Problem with instant promotion Hinata is that it nukes his exp gain.

Edit for lumi: Avo isn't very high that I've noticed. Then again I tend to use Swordmasters, Lancers, and Bowmen so I don't lack for accuracy.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[-Cynthia-]

Your standards are incredibly high.

That being said, 17 Spd really does go that far, especially when factoring in potential tonics and pair up. Here's a reference on a chapter I'm on. C14 Paladins have 16 Spd. The cavaliers have 10. Thieves have 15. Hoshido doesn't have fast enemies. The faceless in C20 aren't even fast.

Problem with instant promotion Hinata is that it nukes his exp gain.

Edit for lumi: Avo isn't very high that I've noticed. Then again I tend to use Swordmasters, Lancers, and Bowmen so I don't lack for accuracy.

Well, Hinata wouldn't be doubling the Thieves or Paladins in that scenario(unless he got a +Spd pair up I guess) and we still have 13 or so chapters to go. He also only has 13 Str instapromoted which isn't a lot. Seems like mediocre performance now and even worse later given his lowered Exp gain and low Str and Spd growths.

I guess he's usable if you really want to dump resources on him, but it seems pretty unimpressive from here.

Edited September 27, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[gayserbeam]

And nobody says Mozume is garbage at first? what rock have you been hiding under? She joins in paralogue 1 which is available after chapter 4, which is only 1 chapter away from getting Rinka, and she starts as level 1 with low stats, she needs babysitting for a good few chapters before she can handle her own. She'll need at least a good 5 levels or so before that can happen.

Oboro has a personal skill that boosts damage too, and she doesn't have to get hurt to use it. She also doesn't even have to reclass at level 10 (which, by the way, she can do with an A+ with Rinkah, ahe doesn't have to marry Kamui) to get a STR lead. 20/20 Shura Rinkah has 27 STR. 20/20 Holy Lancer Oboro has 32 STR. That's a five point lead. She also has a SPD lead: at 20/20 Oboro will hit 31. Rinkah will only make it to 29. That's not even accounting for Oboro's class having a crit boost and Lancefaire, knocking her even further ahead.

Rinkah isn't far ahead of Mozume at all.

Rinkah's bases:

Level 4

20HP,8STR,2MAG,6SKL,8SPD,5LCK,10DEF,3RES

(With her personal skill and a Bronze Club, it's an effective 17 Attack Power)

Level 1

Mozume's bases as Bowman:

16HP,6STR,0MAG,8SKL,7SPD,2LCK,4DEF,2RES

(With a Bronze Yumi she has an effect 13 Attack Power)

Now, after just six levels,

Rinkah's average stats:

Level 10

22HP,10STR,3MAG,9SKL,11SPD,7LCK,13DEF,4RES

(With her Personal Skill and an Iron Club it's an effective 20 Attack Power)

Level 7

Mozume's average stats as Bowman:

19HP,9STR,0MAG,12SKL,11SPD,5LCK,7DEF,4RES

(With Prescience and an Iron Yumi it's an effective 22 Attack Power)

After just three or four chapters, if you were using Mozume and Rinkah, Mozume will have already matched and even slightly eclipsed her. And with her massive growths, she'll only be better than Rinkah from then on.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to argue. I'm saying that Rinkah is a usable character but among the worst in Hoshido (around bottom 7). I'm not saying she's irredemable trash or that everyone else is perfect. You're being a just a little hostile, here

Edited September 28, 2015 by gayserbeam

[HTakara82]

Oboro has a personal skill that boosts damage too, and she doesn't have to get hurt to use it. She also doesn't even have to reclass at level 10 (which, by the way, she can do with an A+ with Rinkah, ahe doesn't have to marry Kamui) to get a STR lead. 20/20 Shura Rinkah has 27 STR. 20/20 Holy Lancer Oboro has 32 STR. That's a five point lead. She also has a SPD lead: at 20/20 Oboro will cap her Speed at 33. Rinkah will only make it to 29. That's not even accounting for Oboro's class having a crit boost and Lancefaire, knocking her even further ahead.

Rinkah isn't far ahead of Mozume at all.

Rinkah's bases:

Level 4

20HP,8STR,2MAG,6SKL,8SPD,5LCK,10DEF,3RES

(With her personal skill and a Bronze Club, it's an effective 17 Attack Power)

Level 1

Mozume's bases as Bowman:

16HP,6STR,0MAG,8SKL,7SPD,2LCK,4DEF,2RES

(With a Bronze Yumi she has an effect 13 Attack Power)

Now, after just six levels,

Rinkah's average stats:

Level 10

22HP,10STR,3MAG,9SKL,11SPD,7LCK,13DEF,4RES

(With her Personal Skill and an Iron Club it's an effective 20 Attack Power)

Level 7

Mozume's average stats as Bowman:

19HP,9STR,0MAG,12SKL,11SPD,5LCK,7DEF,4RES

(With Prescience and an Iron Yumi it's an effective 22 Attack Power)

After just three or four chapters, if you were using Mozume and Rinkah, Mozume will have already matched and even slightly eclipsed her. And with her massive growths, she'll only be better than Rinkah from then on.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to argue. I'm saying that Rinkah is a usable character but among the worst in Hoshido (around bottom 7). I'm not saying she's irredemable trash or that everyone else is perfect. You're being a just a little hostile, here

Oboro hitting her spd cap? lol, no, she's hitting 29 just like Rinka, they're pretty much speed tied the whole way through, they'll be doubling / not doubling the exact same enemies, and throughout the levels before even hitting 20/20, there'll only be a 2-3 pt strength deficit for awhile, so in real world usage, there's no difference.

What I'm getting at with Mozume, is that she's fragile, she need's babying, while Rinka doesn't require someone to hover around her at all times to make sure someone doesn't 1RKO her. Her starting low defense and hp, and she can't dodge well either, makes her requiring babying, I'm not arguing that she doesn't end up good, it's the effort needed before she can stand on her own. Any unit that requires babying at first has an automatic red mark on it. Regardless of how good they end up being.

You're constantly trying to make everyone out to be godmode in comparison to her, which is completely false. Most characters only have like 5 to 10% higher strength growth in comparison, and you make that seem like it's a billion% higher.

[astrophys]

Yes, but to me, it seems like IS wanted the Avatar to be more physically and support based than a magic unit. White Blood seems to outclass both the Dark Knight and Grandmaster. White Blood has better max stats and, since the Avatar has access to the convey, can instantly whip out a staff in a crisis.

Grandmaster doesn't have stellar luck and the Dark Knight has horrible speed as well as an added weakness (horse).

If I am not mistaken, the Avatar doesn't want to have an added weakness since he/she already is a 'dragon' unit like a Manakete and is weak to Wyrmslayers.

Oh, I totally agree with you that the Avatar leans physical and that White Blood fits that natural inclination better. Although as discussed many of your other magic users seem to have notable issues in key stat growths or bases that make them difficult to use, so a magic Avatar might be able to pull off a magic role better than most of the other characters.

And of course, I agree with you with respect to overall max stats, and I admit that having two weaknesses can be problematic [although it isn't unprecedented; consider Awakening Pegasus with beast and flying weakness, or Awakening Wyverns with dragon/flying weakness, or Awakening Taguel Wyvern riders with beast, dragon, and flying weakness [i actually had the latter once with Wyvern Panne and she turned out great despite this problem].

With regards to class base stats and growths, however [seeing that you probably aren't maxing out all of your stats in game]…. [note: I'm going to be considering the Dark Knight, which is more likely to be considered a "poor" class to illustrate my point]

White Blood

19 HP, 10 Atk, 4 Mag, 5 Skl, 6 Spd, 4 Lck, 7 Def, 3 Res, 6 Move

Non-move base stat total: 58

Dark Blood [stat difference compared to White Blood noted in brackets]

19 HP [+0], 8 Str [-2], 6 Mag [+2], 6 Skl [+1], 5 Spd [-1], 3 Lck [-1], 8 Def [+1], 6 Res [+3}, 8 Move [+2]

Non-move base stat total: 61

So you actually get slightly higher base stat totals [+3 points] as a Dark Knight… granted, your stronger of your attack stats [str] is weaker at a Dark Knight because it takes a more hybrid approach, and granted you do have -1 Spd base, which occasionally costs a double, but you end up with superior defenses [+1 Def, +3 Res], and superior move [+2].

As for growths… here are their class growths; their personal growths don't matter as much for comparison as those apply equally to all classes regardless of what you choose

White Blood:

15% HP, 15% Str, 10% Mag, 10% Skl, 10% Spd, 10% Lck, 15% Def, 0% Res

Total Growths: 85%

Dark Knight [and difference compared to White Blood]

15% HP [+0%], 20% Str [+5%], 10% Mag [+0%], 5% Skl [-5%], 5% Spd [-5%], 5% Lck [-5%], 15% Def [+0%], 5% Res [+5%]

Total Growths: 80%

Over 19 levels, a 5% stat growth difference will on average amount to a 0.05 x 19 = 0.95 difference in the stats that would be gained due to these growths.

So let's look at what the anticipated difference in stats for a character raised as a Dark Knight vs. a White Blood would have at 20/20 [of course, White Blood has staves and Dragonstone to go for it, while Dark Knight gets tomes; also Dark KNIGHT [edited here; Lief corrected me that I mistakenly wrote Dark Blood originally] only gets B-rank swords, so in practice Yato will do one less damage than in White Blood and will have a weaker weapon triangle effect]

Expected stat differences at 20/20, with regards to Dark Knight -White Blood:

HP: +0 [both have equal bases and growths]

Str: -1.05 [White Blood has +2 in base, but Dark Knight has +5% in growths and closes the gap by 0.95 on average]

Mag: +2 [Dark Knight has a better base; they have equal growths]

Skl: +0.05 [Dark Knight starts with a +1 better base, but a 5% lower growth may almost nullify this by 20/20]

Spd: -1.95 [starts with a worse base and the gap widens; this is an admitted deficiency due to SPD' importance

Lck: -1.95 [-1 base, -0.5% growth]

Def: +1 [+1 base, equal growth]

Res: +3.95 [+3 base, +5% growth]

Sum of Non-move differences: +2.05

Move: +2 [purely due to DK bases]

So a 20/20 Dark Knight should have better TOTAL stats, although that -1.95 Spd could in some cases be problematic… and of course, how the stats are distributed also matters.

ADDENDUM:

But if you're running a +MAG or +RES asset [to boost out your magic to improve your hybrid performance], you get +1.9 SPD in growths from 1/0 to 20/20 [as it applies to your starting class as well] in comparison to any other assets at all EXCEPT for +SPD [which gives +5.7 Spd compared to the neutral case and +3.8 Spd compared to +MAG or +RES, from growths alone, and +2 in the starting stat, for a +7.7 or +5.8 lead].

So a +MAG or +RES Dark Knight will have (-1.95 Spd + 1.9) = - 0.05 Spd on average compared to a White Blood that chose to run +HP, +Str, +SKL, +LCK, or +DEF; an essentially legible difference in most cases [given the use of integer values]. Although of course we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples here when using different assets here, a Dark Knight has a greater incentive to use such assets than perhaps a White Blood would, so in practice they'll be more likely to have such assets and the White Blood less likely. But a +SPD White Blood would get a 7.75 SPD lead over a +MAG/+RES Dark Knight. [5.8 Spd from 10% growth lead over +MAG/+RES, 1.95 lead from higher base and growths and White Blood]. This is where the SPD issues become more apparent.

Although, even still, +MAG Dark Knight should have 27.85 Spd by 20/20 [let's call it 27], and with Yato in Hoshido/IK's final battles he'll have +4 Spd from possession [+2 earlier in the story], so that's 31; if Yato is equipped, that's 32. A +4 speed boost of any combination [tonics, speed wing, pair-up, Rally Speed; i.e., easily doable] brings you up to 36, doubling the Lunatic Final Boss of the 3rd route. +5 Spd to double the Hoshido Hard final boss while +6 lets you do so again after getting Draconic Cursed and then danced for [so like adding on a tonic or Speedwing to a +4 spd pair-up].

On Hard Mode, the 3rd route final battle Berserkers and Bow Knights have 27 Spd… checking this video in the spoiler tags shows that Berserkers still have 27 Spd, although we also see a 30 Spd Adventurer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpVR3s_uu64

But since [on average] you're expected to have around 27 Spd at 20/20 [cap of 29] before Yato and 31 after Yato when its not equipped, this means that any +4 Spd boost combination [pair-up, tonics/Speedwings, Rally Speed, etc.] will put you up to 35 Spd, which means that it won't be that hard to double even this fast enemy. And that's without the +1 Spd on equip Katanna effect of Yato…. so I think you'd be fine.

Edited September 28, 2015 by astrophys

[Leif]

Oh, I totally agree with you that the Avatar leans physical and that White Blood fits that natural inclination better. Although as discussed many of your other magic users seem to have notable issues in key stat growths or bases that make them difficult to use, so a magic Avatar might be able to pull off a magic role better than most of the other characters.

And of course, I agree with you with respect to overall max stats, and I admit that having two weaknesses can be problematic [although it isn't unprecedented; consider Awakening Pegasus with beast and flying weakness, or Awakening Wyverns with dragon/flying weakness, or Awakening Taguel Wyvern riders with beast, dragon, and flying weakness [i actually had the latter once with Wyvern Panne and she turned out great despite this problem].

With regards to class base stats and growths, however [seeing that you probably aren't maxing out all of your stats in game]…. [note: I'm going to be considering the Dark Knight, which is more likely to be considered a "poor" class to illustrate my point]

White Blood

19 HP, 10 Atk, 4 Mag, 5 Skl, 6 Spd, 4 Lck, 7 Def, 3 Res, 6 Move

Non-move base stat total: 58

Dark Blood [stat difference compared to White Blood noted in brackets]

19 HP [+0], 8 Str [-2], 6 Mag [+2], 6 Skl [+1], 5 Spd [-1], 3 Lck [-1], 8 Def [+1], 6 Res [+3}, 8 Move [+2]

Non-move base stat total: 61

So you actually get slightly higher base stat totals [+3 points] as a Dark Knight… granted, your stronger of your attack stats [str] is weaker at a Dark Knight because it takes a more hybrid approach, and granted you do have -1 Spd base, which occasionally costs a double, but you end up with superior defenses [+1 Def, +3 Res], and superior move [+2].

As for growths… here are their class growths; their personal growths don't matter as much for comparison as those apply equally to all classes regardless of what you choose

White Blood:

15% HP, 15% Str, 10% Mag, 10% Skl, 10% Spd, 10% Lck, 15% Def, 0% Res

Total Growths: 85%

Dark Knight [and difference compared to White Blood]

15% HP [+0%], 20% Str [+5%], 10% Mag [+0%], 5% Skl [-5%], 5% Spd [-5%], 5% Lck [-5%], 15% Def [+0%], 5% Res [+5%]

Total Growths: 80%

Over 19 levels, a 5% stat growth difference will on average amount to a 0.05 x 19 = 0.95 difference in the stats that would be gained due to these growths.

So let's look at what the anticipated difference in stats for a character raised as a Dark Knight vs. a White Blood would have at 20/20 [of course, White Blood has staves and Dragonstone to go for it, while Dark Knight gets tomes; also Dark Blood only gets B-rank swords, so in practice Yato will do one less damage than in White Blood and will have a weaker weapon triangle effect]

Expected stat differences at 20/20, with regards to Dark Knight -White Blood:

HP: +0 [both have equal bases and growths]

Str: -1.05 [White Blood has +2 in base, but Dark Knight has +5% in growths and closes the gap by 0.95 on average]

Mag: +2 [Dark Knight has a better base; they have equal growths]

Skl: +0.05 [Dark Knight starts with a +1 better base, but a 5% lower growth may almost nullify this by 20/20]

Spd: -1.95 [starts with a worse base and the gap widens; this is an admitted deficiency due to SPD' importance

Lck: -1.95 [-1 base, -0.5% growth]

Def: +1 [+1 base, equal growth]

Res: +3.95 [+3 base, +5% growth]

Sum of Non-move differences: +2.05

Move: +2 [purely due to DK bases]

So a 20/20 Dark Knight should have better TOTAL stats, although that -1.95 Spd could in some cases be problematic… and of course, how the stats are distributed also matters.

Wait, wait, wait. The Dark Blood gets an A in Swords, not a B Rank. It gets a B Rank in Tomes.

[lysander]

Well, Hinata wouldn't be doubling the Thieves or Paladins in that scenario(unless he got a +Spd pair up I guess) and we still have 13 or so chapters to go. He also only has 13 Str instapromoted which isn't a lot. Seems like mediocre performance now and even worse later given his lowered Exp gain and low Str and Spd growths.

I guess he's usable if you really want to dump resources on him, but it seems pretty unimpressive from here.

He's saying your standards are really high because if you compare the speed of the rest of your party at those points they're either well-behind 17 or only slightly ahead. The same is largely true of a non-earlypromoted Hinata at 14 with whatever he's able to gain. The stuff he needs tonics and pair-ups to double are the things the rest of the party, with few exceptions, needs them for until around CH22 or so from what I'm seeing from video stats. Hard mode, but lunatic is +0-1 on the speed front with the biggest difference being stuff actually has skills and higher weapon ranks/weapons.

Hinata isn't excellent, but he's around where most of the Hoshido units are in terms of being worth using. And dunno what you mean by dumping resources--at most the resource you'd be giving him over people you aren't using is exp but you don't even have to do that for long if you wouldn't want to since as a trueblade early promo he makes wonderful rivalry bait for takumi once he falls off and as a weapon master he's just all-around good for defensive stance.

[astrophys]

Wait, wait, wait. The Dark Blood gets an A in Swords, not a B Rank. It gets a B Rank in Tomes.

I misspoke. I meant Dark Knight. Good catch.

[-Cynthia-]

He's saying your standards are really high because if you compare the speed of the rest of your party at those points they're either well-behind 17 or only slightly ahead. The same is largely true of a non-earlypromoted Hinata at 14 with whatever he's able to gain. The stuff he needs tonics and pair-ups to double are the things the rest of the party, with few exceptions, needs them for until around CH22 or so from what I'm seeing from video stats. Hard mode, but lunatic is +0-1 on the speed front with the biggest difference being stuff actually has skills and higher weapon ranks/weapons.

Hinata isn't excellent, but he's around where most of the Hoshido units are in terms of being worth using. And dunno what you mean by dumping resources--at most the resource you'd be giving him over people you aren't using is exp but you don't even have to do that for long if you wouldn't want to since as a trueblade early promo he makes wonderful rivalry bait for takumi once he falls off and as a weapon master he's just all-around good for defensive stance.

He might have pretty good speed if instapromoted- with average move, not ORKOing(if you can ORKO with 13 base Str, Oboro must be pretty godly), 1 range and low potential for lategame. If we have to give him a pair up just so he can have decent offense in the short term, it really makes me question his overall usefulness.

[Ryo]

I was kinda forced to utilize Tsubaki since I heard that his daughter's paralogue is good for farming exp lol :v Surprisingly, he isn't doing so bad on my team. With +SPD pair-up he can still double many slow things. Though admittedly he kinda lags behind compared to others even after being fed a considerable amount of killings due to being "balanced".

I haven't tried training Hinata or Rinka, though the latter is an invaluable source of +STR bonus for early-game for pretty much everyone.

The only one that I actively wants to train but failed is Setsuna. She joins underleveled and needs a lot of babying to catch up, but the efforts aren't really worth it because other units also need those EXP. And even then, her stats is still pretty meh, so I pretty much had to restart an entire chapter just so I can reallocate the EXP on people who might need it more.

[gayserbeam]

Oboro hitting her spd cap? lol, no, she's hitting 29 just like Rinka, they're pretty much speed tied the whole way through, they'll be doubling / not doubling the exact same enemies, and throughout the levels before even hitting 20/20, there'll only be a 2-3 pt strength deficit for awhile, so in real world usage, there's no difference.

What I'm getting at with Mozume, is that she's fragile, she need's babying, while Rinka doesn't require someone to hover around her at all times to make sure someone doesn't 1RKO her. Her starting low defense and hp, and she can't dodge well either, makes her requiring babying, I'm not arguing that she doesn't end up good, it's the effort needed before she can stand on her own. Any unit that requires babying at first has an automatic red mark on it. Regardless of how good they end up being.

You're constantly trying to make everyone out to be godmode in comparison to her, which is completely false. Most characters only have like 5 to 10% higher strength growth in comparison, and you make that seem like it's a billion% higher.

Oboro won't cap, I made a mistake, thinking Lance Fighter had a lower base SPD.

...but she still reaches 31, more than Rinkah. You didn't consider that she gains 2 SPD upon promotion.

I'm not trying to make everyone look like gods. I don't think you read my post, I'm still not sure what you are getting so fighty about, and I'd rather not fill this thread with this argument anymore.

[Thor Odinson]

With Rinka, though, if I want to use her as a front unit (because I'm me and therefore favoritism, this isn't trying to say she's good), who would y'all recommend I use as her pairup?

[Ryo]

With Rinka, though, if I want to use her as a front unit (because I'm me and therefore favoritism, this isn't trying to say she's good), who would y'all recommend I use as her pairup?

Well, most people are having problem with her strength, but on Hoshido there aren't many people that boost strength. I can only think of Kamui and Silas. You may also want to dump a lot of stat boosters on her.

EDIT: Oh there's also Takumi, Setsuna and Oboro. These people also apparently boost spd so that's also nice.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Ryo

[CocoaGalaxy]

I'm extremely late to the party, but the thing is, if you really want to know, everyone's bases are pretty similar to each other, so there's not really much to compare

I'll see what else I have to say later...

[Thor Odinson]

She's prolly going to monopolize all my statboosters anyway

I committed to dumping all my resources on her because my other fav doesn't need anything

[HTakara82]

Oboro won't cap, I made a mistake, thinking Lance Fighter had a lower base SPD.

...but she still reaches 31, more than Rinkah. You didn't consider that she gains 2 SPD upon promotion.

I'm not trying to make everyone look like gods. I don't think you read my post, I'm still not sure what you are getting so fighty about, and I'd rather not fill this thread with this argument anymore.

Surprise surprise, Rinka also gets a +2 from promotion as well. So they're still even.

I don't doubt that you have the game, but something tells me that you didn't even bother using her.

The only reason why I'm confrontational is because of your logic, you try to downplay Rinka at any possible way, and when I dispute it in a way you have trouble refuting back, you ignore it and move the goal post. There is no reason to not use her, other than you thinking having a 5 to 10% strength growth difference makes it worlds apart. No one ever complained about 45% strength growth before, like ever, until Rinka. Like mentioned before, Nolan has pretty much the same growths as Rinka but with less defense, and many thinks he's the best warrior. And Nephenee who only has a 35% strength growth is considered one of the best Beorc units in her games.

It's just completely unreasonable to put others who have a 50 to 55% strength on a much higher petestal. Just because of such a small deficit in strength growth.

[Ownagepuffs]

Well, Hinata wouldn't be doubling the Thieves or Paladins in that scenario(unless he got a +Spd pair up I guess) and we still have 13 or so chapters to go. He also only has 13 Str instapromoted which isn't a lot. Seems like mediocre performance now and even worse later given his lowered Exp gain and low Str and Spd growths.

I guess he's usable if you really want to dump resources on him, but it seems pretty unimpressive from here.

I mean, basically everyone in Hoshido gives +Spd on pair up meaning you can pick a name out of a hat to pair him up with and odds are he's getting someone with +Spd lol.

His Str, however, is an issue. He'll do "good" enough damage but he wouldn't be on par with like, Hana or Oboro. A steel forge would do wonders for him. It's "good now, possibly below average later" since his growths will catch up to him.

He might have pretty good speed if instapromoted- with average move, not ORKOing(if you can ORKO with 13 base Str, Oboro must be pretty godly), 1 range and low potential for lategame. If we have to give him a pair up just so he can have decent offense in the short term, it really makes me question his overall usefulness.

Funny thing about Oboro being "godly" with 13 base Str. She has the highest base defense out of any unpromoted unit and she can ORKO the Knights in the middle in C9 at base. She's good out of the box and pretty much stays that way.

Back to Hinata. A pair up has to be like, the most expendable resource in the game. I don't consider him the best around, but he's more workable than people are making him out to be.

With Rinka, though, if I want to use her as a front unit (because I'm me and therefore favoritism, this isn't trying to say she's good), who would y'all recommend I use as her pairup?

Setsuna has really solid offensive bonuses and so does Takumi. The Ninjas wouldn't be a bad choice either.

Edit: I'm pretty annoyed at units being compared at 20/1 and 20/20. What is this, GFaqs?

Anyway, Rinka has problems with bases that don't jive with her growths and low bases on her own. Her class doesn't even offer Crit bonus or anything. Lol at comparing her to Nolan. Vacuum comparisons pls. Nolan has earth affinity, Tarvos, and makes the best use out beastfoe. He's useful in a team of wimps and his durability means something there.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Surprise surprise, Rinka also gets a +2 from promotion as well. So they're still even.

I don't doubt that you have the game, but something tells me that you didn't even bother using her.

The only reason why I'm confrontational is because of your logic, you try to downplay Rinka at any possible way, and when I dispute it in a way you have trouble refuting back, you ignore it and move the goal post. There is no reason to not use her, other than you thinking having a 5 to 10% strength growth difference makes it worlds apart. No one ever complained about 45% strength growth before, like ever, until Rinka. Like mentioned before, Nolan has pretty much the same growths as Rinka but with less defense, and many thinks he's the best warrior. And Nephenee who only has a 35% strength growth is considered one of the best Beorc units in her games.

It's just completely unreasonable to put others who have a 50 to 55% strength on a much higher petestal. Just because of such a small deficit in strength growth.

What's the point of comparing units from different games though? You can't compare Rinkah's availability with Nephenee's or such, you can't use BEXP on Rinkah, skills don't work the same in both games, Rinkah is not in the Shit Brigade, her growths change with her class, et cetera. It's completely useless.

[Thor Odinson]

I might consider using Setsuna for Rinka's pairup, then, since I don't really plan on using Setsuna up front anyway.

[Ownagepuffs]

I might consider using Setsuna for Rinka's pairup, then, since I don't really plan on using Setsuna up front anyway.

There's an immediate Seraph in C7, a speedwings in C9, and Kagerou joins with an energy drop post C10. Favoritism!Rinka has hope. Truth be told I may try it out myself and let you know how it goes one of these days because I was hype for Rinka too. Her Shura model is so amazing.

[Thor Odinson]

There's an immediate Seraph in C7, a speedwings in C9, and Kagerou joins with an energy drop post C10. Favoritism!Rinka has hope. Truth be told I may try it out myself and let you know how it goes one of these days because I was hype for Rinka too. Her Shura model is so amazing.

Cool, thanks!

Do let me know, I'd love to find out!

[gayserbeam]

Surprise surprise, Rinka also gets a +2 from promotion as well. So they're still even.

Rinkah has 29 with that promotion boost.

I don't doubt that you have the game, but something tells me that you didn't even bother using her.

I did. More than once. Yet she always needed work. She'd need a Seraph Robe, or an Energy Drop, or grinding, or deliberate focus that, speaking from exprerience, was more rewarding when spent elsewhere. As I've said in perhaps every reply I've made to you, she is a usable unit, but there are so many superior units that she is near the bottom.

The only reason why I'm confrontational is because of your logic, you try to downplay Rinka at any possible way, and when I dispute it in a way you have trouble refuting back, you ignore it and move the goal post.

That's because you've been setting the goal post this whole time. I explain why a unit is more valuable than Rinkah, you say that the difference isn't big enough, and the argument never goes anywhere. For example, I said a reclassed Tsukuyomi would be better than Rinkah, your rebuttal was that he'd have an E in axes and would need to wait for a Parallel Seal. I said that you can get a Parallel Seal right away and that Rinkah has an E too. So you just ignored all that.

Then you said that Oboro's STR lead at 20/20 is trivial, but we already saw that she has 5 more STR, Nohr Hater, and Lencefaire making her stronger. Still you argue that there is just a "small difference."

You argued that Mozume required babying, but I showed that at base she only has 3 less attack power than Rinkah. You complained her defense was low, ignoring that she is an archer, shouldn't be getting hit anyways, and will have high DEF eventually.

All of your arguments have just been "Rinkah isn't that bad and you are wrong" with no attempt explain why she is better than anyone else. This whole discussion has been me listing long, salient reasons for why Rinkah is disadvangtaged compared to the powerful other units and all you've done is asserted "she's not that bad" in an very rude and overbearing tone.

There is no reason to not use her, other than you thinking having a 5 to 10% strength growth difference makes it worlds apart. No one ever complained about 45% strength growth before, like ever, until Rinka. Like mentioned before, Nolan has pretty much the same growths as Rinka but with less defense, and many thinks he's the best warrior. And Nephenee who only has a 35% strength growth is considered one of the best Beorc units in her games.

That growth doesn't exist in a vaccuum. The reality is that the average STR in this game is over 45. Kaze and Hinata have 45 too. Mozume has 60. Hana has 65. Saizou, Asama, and Oboro have 55. Kagerou has 70. Nishiki, Crimson and Yuugiri have 50. The only physically-oriented units Rinkah beats in STR are either Kamuisexual, have better STR than Rinkah when reclassed, or are also commonly talked about in this thread.

She doesn't even have anything to really compensate for that low STR. She has Flame Blood, yeah, but the Bowmen have Prescience, Silas has Open Assault, Nishiki has Even Illusion, and Tsubaki, Oboro and Tsukuyomi all have their own damage boost skills so Flame Blood isn't some outstanding unique trait. She has high SKL, but everyone in Hoshido has either functional SKL or access to a Hit boost of some kind. She has high SPD, but so do Felicia, Kaze, Slias, Mozume, Hana, Saizou, Tsukuyomi, Asama, Setsuna, Oboro, Yuugiri, Nishiki and Crimson. She has the highest defense growth in Hoshido, but also low RES and the worst HP growth, so she needs a Seraph Robe or two to function as a tank. In general, she just has less to offer. Her best trait, and the best use for her, is her pair up bonuses. Pairing her up as the Support Unit to a unit like Silas or Oboro will be a huge help and can eventually give either of them the Oni class if they want Ogre Strike or Counter.

It's just completely unreasonable to put others who have a 50 to 55% strength on a much higher petestal. Just because of such a small deficit in strength growth.

When nearly everyone has that 5%-10% STR advantage but also has higher HP, SPD, or RES, or all three, Rinkah is worse.

I'm tired of this argument and was hoping you'd stop after the last post. If you want to continue this circular mess then PM me instead of polluting this thread with fighting.