Worst Units and Classes

[Ownagepuffs]

Hey man, I'm not saying Elfie is a bad unit. I was saying that if you're using Elfie, you don't want to be in the Knight class long and she prefers classes like Cavalier or Great Knight or something.

No argument there. Looking back on it I regret going through General to get formation because she ended up being fast enough to not get doubled (she was even in doubling range of some enemies but couldn't off them because formation). 10/1 would really nuke her long term since her exp gain will be shot but you could then treat her as a pseudo Jagen. But then if you are doing Effie/Harold you could drop her for Lutz later on since Effie!Lutz is pretty beastly so it's a win win. I'm trying to think about how I could get her to go Wyvern or something.

[-Cynthia-]

No argument there. Looking back on it I regret going through General to get formation because she ended up being fast enough to not get doubled (she was even in doubling range of some enemies but couldn't off them because formation). 10/1 would really nuke her long term since her exp gain will be shot but you could then treat her as a pseudo Jagen. But then if you are doing Effie/Harold you could drop her for Lutz later on since Effie!Lutz is pretty beastly so it's a win win. I'm trying to think about how I could get her to go Wyvern or something.

Sadly, the lack of male Wyvern Riders means that you would have to have male Kamui marry her I'm pretty sure.

[Duke of Dozel]

Wyvern Elfie just sounds so freaking beautiful. A towering STR/DEF based flier that's fast enough to not get doubled and doesn't have to face many archers? Sign me up.

But yeah, only way to marry a wyvern rider is by marrying her yourself, which is a terrible idea since her +3 STR mod and balanced mods all around, as well as great growths, make her one of Nohr's best physical moms, her only competition being charlotte.

At least we have Lutz. But still, only one I can imagine being as good would be Elfie!Velour.

[Ownagepuffs]

Sadly, the lack of male Wyvern Riders means that you would have to have male Kamui marry her I'm pretty sure.

Truth be told I've toyed with the idea of Zerker Effie if she marries Harold. Problem is lack of Axe rank. She's so strong that Bronze Axes could probably ORKO thinks anyway but eh. Ideally something that carries Lance rank is best for her, most practical being Great Knight since it doesn't require anything. I've even though about Lancer subclass Kamui x Effie for kicks. Obviously I wouldn't do it but wouldn't that be something.

And for The Fir Coat: Fates remembers when you promote so it treats a 10/1 unit different than an 18/1 unit so the former gains exp faster, however promotion is still a flat +20 levels as far as it is concerned meaning you do still get low exp gain. This is different than "seal classes" such as Dread Fighter, D Flier, Vanguard, etc. Those seals literally put you in the class while retaining your current level so your exp gain is unaffected.

[The Fir Coat]

And for The Fir Coat: Fates remembers when you promote so it treats a 10/1 unit different than an 18/1 unit so the former gains exp faster, however promotion is still a flat +20 levels as far as it is concerned meaning you do still get low exp gain. This is different than "seal classes" such as Dread Fighter, D Flier, Vanguard, etc. Those seals literally put you in the class while retaining your current level so your exp gain is unaffected.

+20 levels? That sounds way too high... So a 20/1 unit gains EXP as if they are level 41?

Also, good ole pay2win giving you the best classes when you fork over more money.

[Ownagepuffs]

+20 levels? That sounds way too high... So a 20/1 unit gains EXP as if they are level 41?

Also, good ole pay2win giving you the best classes when you fork over more money.

More accurately: +20 levels to the displayed level post promotion so a level 1 promoted unit is counted as level 21 (+whatever your level was pre promotion which would probably explain why a 10/1 unit and a 20/1 unit gain exp differently)

[The Fir Coat]

That just seems way too high and with the level 40 classes being a thing I can't believe that is in the game...

So if you switch to Dark Flier or Singer or Ballastician or whatever you'll be level 21 but as a promoted unit you'll be 41?

A level 39 Dark Flier would gain more EXP than a level 20/1 Pegasus Warrior?

This sounds worse than the RD laguz situation, somehow I don't think you have the numbers quite right.

[Shephen]

Puff's numbers is way to high. You still do take a exp cut for promoting early but nothing that massive.

A lvl 10 Peg and lvl 10 DF gain the same exp for killing lvl 10 enemy. A lvl 10 DF gains more exp for killing a lvl 10 enemy than a lvl 10/1 unit. A 20/1 Falco and 21 DF gain the same exp for killing a lvl 20/1 enemy. The exp gains are the same between Normal units and Link/DLC units is the same. Its just that promoting early does some weird stuff to your gain if you are still fighting unpromoted enemies while its fine fighting against promoted enemies.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Shephen

[Gomez_Addams]

Sadly, the lack of male Wyvern Riders means that you would have to have male Kamui marry her I'm pretty sure.

Well, I'm going to marry her anyway, so... win-win!

[Tooru]

Hold on, why wouldn't you ALWAYS instapromote Benoit?

I was under the impression that Promotion doesn't effect EXP gain in Fates, just maximum level. Is that not true?

Keeping him as a Knight for even 1 turn seems like a complete waste of time if you are going to use him since his problems are at base level, not 15/20. Any EXP not being put towards those four levels he needs for DF is both EXP semi-wasted and makes it more difficult to get those 4 levels after he does eventually promote since his level for EXP purposes will be 21 instead of 16. Not to mention the whole 4 move problem as well as the huge boost in Strength and the bulk stats.

Lv1 Camilla gain EXP like a Lv16 unprompted unit, so I think the EXP gain is not effected.

His first problem is the same base STR as most units but lower than Effie, who has highest Str growth in Nohr. By early promoting he still has lower Str than the one with highest growth so nothing changes.

The second problem is getting doubled. The damage is few or even zero but it is "getting doubled" so it must be bad. By early promoting he still receives few or zero damage so ...

The third problem is the slow playstyle. It seems that we are "really fucking slow"(by someone who doesn't have the game) by using Generals even with less turns costed. By early promoting... He will become a General, right?

Edited October 9, 2015 by Tooru

[CocoaGalaxy]

What I was told about the exp formula (I obviously have not bothered to double check them at all)

Felicia/Jakob cap at 40 before Eternal Seals.

Gunter caps at 30 before Eternal Seals (lol gunter)

Unpromoted Units/Special Classes: Internal Level = Displayed Level

Promoted Units: Internal Level = Displayed Level + 20 - Adjustment

Leo: 2

Camilla/Yuugiri: 5

Gunter: 15

Felicia/Jakob: 20

Others: (20-Level at Promotion)/2

If both units are at the same Level, a kill gives 30 Exp (except Healers)

Edited October 9, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Dark Sage]

Lv1 Camilla gain EXP like a Lv16 unprompted unit, so I think the EXP gain is not effected.

His first problem is the same base STR as most units but lower than Effie, who has highest Str growth in Nohr. By early promoting he still has lower Str than the one with highest growth so nothing changes.

The second problem is getting doubled. The damage is few or even zero but it is "getting doubled" so it must be bad. By early promoting he still receives few or zero damage so ...

The third problem is the slow playstyle. It seems that we are "really fucking slow"(by someone who doesn't have the game) by using Generals even with less turns costed. By early promoting... He will become a General, right?

You know, you can really stand to be less passive agressive. I'm not the only one here who doesn't own the game so I'm not sure why you keep singling me out.

In any case, Shephen and Gwimpage already helped demonstrate why Benoit is not that good outside of slow play. He gets destroyed by effective weapons and magic unless you get him Defense Formation, which forces you to make him a General. His strength and defense, while impressive, are not unique because you're not short on bulky units in Nohr; you get Belka, Elfie, Camilla, and Silas before Benoit joins and Flannel, Marx, and Leon to a lesser extent right after you get Benoit. All of these units either have more move, better offense, better speed, more flexibility, flight, possess some potent and unique offensive tool (Beastbane/Siegfried), or some variation thereof. With all of these tanks around, there's not really a compelling reason to use Benoit unless you really like armors or something.

I mean it's your game so use whoever you want, but expect people to disagree with you and don't take things so personally.

[DragonFlames]

Stuff, shenanigans, who knows

It's really "too complicated" and what not to tell, at the very least, I'd need more numbers (cough enemy numbers cough) before speaking, so to say

In other news, I "completed" (by which I mean, for all that I care anyway, I'm not going to go and have numbers for the other characters) my averages list, but it really can only tell you so much

I suppose it's still fairly helpful, in my opinion anyway, for evaluating. Somewhat...somewhat...

Averages by Class

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gCxf3Q20tdNr8V4ypw8dKDEpLNJf6e0lQJ-3SRvLcXw/edit?usp=sharing

Averages by Character

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RWF-rNmpdehX4ZTIgbSpKxcQLFmPKp5YcAfxeDFWsqE/edit?usp=sharing

"Until we know", it really all depends on what you expect your characters to have

Some of the "broken" characters do have 30 Str/Spd/Def or values "near" it anyway, but who knows.

Why am I posting this here? Who knows as well.

Thank you so much for making the effort of doing this! :D

From what I can gather from that table, Hana isn't worthless at all (I at first thought so because everybody kept saying how weak she is). Her averages remind me

of PoR Mia, to be honest and she was my best unit in that game, so I can make Hana work too. Cool.

A bit disappointed in the Golden Kite Warrior class, though, because I thought it looked cool. Maybe if I make my Avatar one it can be good... ish?

[Tooru]

We can train Charlotte for levels, but hit rate is always a problem for her.

Berserker!Effie has almost the same Skl, and lower Axe-Rank results in lower hit rate.

Is Charlotte better than Effie, so someone is thinking about making a Charlotte 2.0?

You know, you can really stand to be less passive agressive. I'm not the only one here who doesn't own the game so I'm not sure why you keep singling me out.

In any case, Shephen and Gwimpage already helped demonstrate why Benoit is not that good outside of slow play. He gets destroyed by effective weapons and magic unless you get him Defense Formation, which forces you to make him a General. His strength and defense, while impressive, are not unique because you're not short on bulky units in Nohr; you get Belka, Elfie, Camilla, and Silas before Benoit joins and Flannel, Marx, and Leon to a lesser extent right after you get Benoit. All of these units either have more move, better offense, better speed, more flexibility, flight, possess some potent and unique offensive tool (Beastbane/Siegfried), or some variation thereof. With all of these tanks around, there's not really a compelling reason to use Benoit unless you really like armors or something.

I mean it's your game so use whoever you want, but expect people to disagree with you and don't take things so personally.

You have explained why Benoit is bad and I have explained how Benoit can be good for quick play, but theory is theory.

I also have tried to play quick in practice, how about... OK you don't own the game so we have to stop here.

And you win because I am "fucking slow".

Edited October 9, 2015 by Tooru

[Shadow Mir]

Okay then.... How does Hana stack up, again?

[Duke of Dozel]

We can train Charlotte for levels, but hit rate is always a problem for her.

Berserker!Effie has almost the same Skl, and lower Axe-Rank results in lower hit rate.

Is Charlotte better than Effie, so someone is thinking about making a Charlotte 2.0?

Elfie comes in the first chapter of Nohr and can immediately marry Harold after support grinding. Charlotte joins in chapter 13 with C rank axes. Depending on how you use Elfie, she could have a higher rank, at the minimum the same. She'll definitely make a better fighter than Harold, but that's mainly because she has good luck. Just stick Harold to her and she'll still OHKO most enemies anyway, especially with a forged weapon. Keeping her in her Knight class limits her ability to double, her bad base of 5 even with an impressive 55 speed growth, so I'd swap her out. Charlotte's problem is having a shaky hit rate as well as roundhouse making it worse, which forces you to use Benoit early on or another unit who's nearby. Her durability will also cause her to die often from attacks, and she just happens to have the worst resistance growth in the game. Great of her to start next to mages right? Her high attack and very good pair up bonuses save her, and if properly trained, she's a monster, but I'm sure Elfie can do the same, except with less durability issues and joins much earlier.

[Shephen]

Charlotte isn't good because of her combat, she is good because of wtf pair up bonuses. Insta promoted Charlotte gives +5 str and +3 spd. A support gives +7 str and +4 spd. S support gives +8 str and +5 speed. That is pretty much the best pair up bonuses and will push any unit over the edge. Her combat blows for the most part until the later in the game, but those pair up bonuses are always amazing.

Okay then.... How does Hana stack up, again?

Ownagepuffs really likes her. Personally I'm not a fan. She needs a few levels to get going offensively since her base speed is a little low(she needs 1 point of speed to double the loldiers and cavs/Silas in her join chapter, I think she needs a point or 2 more to double the fighters). But after her join chapter tonics and what not exist to fill any offensive gap while she is gaining levels. Her durability is pretty bad and she needs the chapter 7 Seraph robe and constant tonics to avoid getting ohkod by the tougher enemies. Flowing Strike and TrueBlade is pretty dope though and is a +.

[Tooru]

Elfie comes in the first chapter of Nohr and can immediately marry Harold after support grinding. Charlotte joins in chapter 13 with C rank axes. Depending on how you use Elfie, she could have a higher rank, at the minimum the same. She'll definitely make a better fighter than Harold, but that's mainly because she has good luck. Just stick Harold to her and she'll still OHKO most enemies anyway, especially with a forged weapon. Keeping her in her Knight class limits her ability to double, her bad base of 5 even with an impressive 55 speed growth, so I'd swap her out. Charlotte's problem is having a shaky hit rate as well as roundhouse making it worse, which forces you to use Benoit early on or another unit who's nearby. Her durability will also cause her to die often from attacks, and she just happens to have the worst resistance growth in the game. Great of her to start next to mages right? Her high attack and very good pair up bonuses save her, and if properly trained, she's a monster, but I'm sure Elfie can do the same, except with less durability issues and joins much earlier.

Berserker!Effie and Berserker!Charlotte have almost the same Str&Spd. Effie deals a little more damage for personal skill and Charlotte is a little faster. But as soon as they are both OHKOing emeries they have the same offensive.

Their Skl are almost the same... "Charlotte 2.0's problem is having a shaky hit rate as well as roundhouse making it worse".

Effie can do the same, of course. When I say Charlotte 2.0 I mean "the same" or maybe a updated version.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Tooru

[Ownagepuffs]

Okay then.... How does Hana stack up, again?

Funny thing to ask about in the midst of this Benny discussion.

Anyway C7 Seraph + Tonics places her in 3-4RKO range early on which makes training her easier and lets her growths do the rest. Really, it only takes a few levels. Her early game is alright but her mid and late game is really amazing which is why I use her over brick wall units like Tsubaki and Hinata. She's one of the few characters fast enough to consistently use steels and double and a steel forge is really strong. The OHKO thing is such a myth, too. If I can get Kaze to 3RKOd status late game then it's not that bad. The strongest enemy types 2RKO her but the final boss OHKOs her no matter what sadly. But that's one enemy in the whole game. She works really well with Takumi.

Edit: guys are we really talking about Zerker Effie why. It's not a practical decision.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Duke of Dozel]

Edit: guys are we really talking about Zerker Effie why. It's not a practical decision.

Super Strength too good

[Shadow Mir]

Funny thing to ask about in the midst of this Benny discussion.

Anyway C7 Seraph + Tonics places her in 3-4RKO range early on which makes training her easier and lets her growths do the rest. Really, it only takes a few levels. Her early game is alright but her mid and late game is really amazing which is why I use her over brick wall units like Tsubaki and Hinata. She's one of the few characters fast enough to consistently use steels and double and a steel forge is really strong. The OHKO thing is such a myth, too. If I can get Kaze to 3RKOd status late game then it's not that bad. The strongest enemy types 2RKO her but the final boss OHKOs her no matter what sadly. But that's one enemy in the whole game. She works really well with Takumi.

Edit: guys are we really talking about Zerker Effie why. It's not a practical decision.

Hey, I wanted to break up the tension.

I see. Glad the "Hana is OHKOed" bullcrap is

...Yeah, wtf is with this Berserker Effie talk?

[Ownagepuffs]

Super Strength too good

But like, E Axes. Her niche is bulk and she's really good at it. It's probably worth looking into if you 10/1 Great Knight her then switch her later on to act as fodder for Lutz because Lutz is baller.

Hey, I wanted to break up the tension.

I see. Glad the "Hana is OHKOed" bullcrap is

...Yeah, wtf is with this Berserker Effie talk?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, though. Great Knights and Generals 2HKO her with investment but still leave her in single digit HP. She can mostly circumvent the Generals because their hit rates are lol if she equips a reverse katana but then she won't scratch them unless she gets crits or Astra. Great Knights tend to pack multiple weapon types so she can't escape them. At least she can act with impunity on player phase because lol hit rates but her EP isn't the greatest late game since it really pushes 1-2 range which only Ryoma, a strong Ninja, a strong shockstick Wielder, and Spellcaster Kamui can claim.

Zerker Effie is a possibility because Harold/Effie happens quickly but it's not worth it. If Effie could grab Cavalier from Harold instead it would make the pairing soo good lol.

[Shephen]

Also adding on that if Hana does use the Reverse Katana you'll need to make sure she doesn't end in the range of a Zerker. WTD against a Zerker is just asking to get crit killed. Nishiki also works pretty well in the endgame since he pushes super speed and can get super tanky with the guard stone and he has Four Fangs around that time which is pretty great softening up for your other units.

Clearly Maid Elfie is best Elfie

Edited October 9, 2015 by Shephen

[Shadow Mir]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, though. Great Knights and Generals 2HKO her with investment but still leave her in single digit HP. She can mostly circumvent the Generals because their hit rates are lol if she equips a reverse katana but then she won't scratch them unless she gets crits or Astra. Great Knights tend to pack multiple weapon types so she can't escape them. At least she can act with impunity on player phase because lol hit rates but her EP isn't the greatest late game since it really pushes 1-2 range which only Ryoma, a strong Ninja, a strong shockstick Wielder, and Spellcaster Kamui can claim.

Zerker Effie is a possibility because Harold/Effie happens quickly but it's not worth it. If Effie could grab Cavalier from Harold instead it would make the pairing soo good lol.

Okay.

As I see it, because of E Axes, Berserker Effie is...

Edited October 9, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[gayserbeam]

Okay.

As I see it, because of E Axes, Berserker Effie is...

Honestly, it has nothing to do with E Axes. The transition from a General with a Steel Lance to a Berserker with a Bronze Axe is only a loss of 3 Attack Power. Bronze Axes can be cheaply forged and you can make a Bronze Axe +2 for the same cost of a single Steel Lance.

Her problem is that she's so invaluable as a tank early on and spent so much time raising her Lance Rank that the class change just isn't worth it.

Edited October 9, 2015 by gayserbeam