Worst Units and Classes

[astrophys]

EDIT: Responding to Ebony… amusing picture….

Of course {spoiler about Hinoka and Kamui},

Hinoka isn't actually Kamui's blood-sister, only a step sister, so there is no actual blood-incestuous relation in the even of Kamui x Hinoka!Matoi…. although I suppose you could say that she's his step-niece due to Hinoka being Kamui's step-sister.

Oh well… {spoiler for 3rd route}

but it would work to further cement the new Touma/Invisible Kingdom - Hoshdo alliance that emerges when Kamui takes over ruling the Invisible Kingdom as its new Prince/King…. the new King of Touma weds Princess Matoi of Hoshido… of course, Kamui is already close to both Hohsido and Nohr anyways, but that would certainly help further cement the alliance…. perhaps now we just need to pair Kanna off to a 2nd gen Nohrian prince and get one of the Hoshidan royals to marry a Nohrian royal and all three kingdoms will have a prince/princess marriage to cement their alliances with the other two

EDIT: Responding to Luninareph

That is a decent point, particularly as staff healing only weakly scales with magic power (base + magic/3). And he does get a 20% magic growth, plus +4 magic during promotion into a Falcon Knight and a 10% class growth [for 30% total] as a Falcon Knight. He starts at 5/0 in Birthright, so 15 levels at 20% growths, +4 promo, and 19 levels at 30% growths give him around 12.7 magic by 20/20 (he starts with 0). So he'll tend to heal for the staff's base healing value +4 HP. 11 Hp with the E-rank 1-2 range baton, 18 HP with the D-rank 1-2 range baton, 14 and 24 HP with their 1-range Nohrian equivalents.

Hinoka has a lower growth than he does (15%) and comes in at a higher level (8 in Birthright), but also has a higher magic base than he does [4, which is worth a bunch of levels]. She'll end up with around 14.55 magic by 20/20.

Matoi's magic growth depends on her mother, but its default value is 15% (and if her mother is Hinoka, it should still be around 15%). Her personal default base is 3 magic, but its not clear how much if any magic she'll get added to her base from her parent's level up gains…. assuming conservatively that she doesn't get any, then she gets 3 + 10*0.15 + 3 + 19*0.25 = 13.25 magic by 20/20. Matoi might actually deal better magic damage than Hinoka against strong enemies (like Generals, Berskerers, etc.) because her Prodigy will kick in to boost her damage by 4, which would put her ahead despite the weaker magic stat…

Edited September 30, 2015 by astrophys

[Gwimpage]

Subaki is pretty good at assisting in Rescue skips since Rescue is E rank and you get 8 total charges throughout the game. His magic stat doesn't even need to be existent to use it either. Additionally healing can be left to your servants since staff WEXP and EXP gain is low enough that it's a not a net positive holding Subaki back to only eventually heal a few more points of HP. (It takes 20 heals to use Mend)

[Ebony]

Oh well… {spoiler for 3rd route}

but it would work to further cement the new Touma/Invisible Kingdom - Hoshdo alliance that emerges when Kamui takes over ruling the Invisible Kingdom as its new Prince/King…. the new King of Touma weds Princess Matoi of Hoshido… of course, Kamui is already close to both Hohsido and Nohr anyways, but that would certainly help further cement the alliance…. perhaps now we just need to pair Kanna off to a 2nd gen Nohrian prince and get one of the Hoshidan royals to marry a Nohrian royal and all three kingdoms will have a prince/princess marriage to cement their alliances with the other two

You know who I could actually say would be good if you wanted to do that with Kanna?

[Shephen]

Subaki's late game problems are over-exagerated imo. From chapter 20 to the Endgame there are only 2 routes and the rest are defeat the boss so there isn't actually a whole lot of combat going on for the late game(unless you're Ryoma or Kamui). Baki can be useful in skipping/speeding up all of the boss missions since he has 8 move and can use the rescue staff at base Falcon Knight. Even when there is fighting Baki has access to a whole host of weaponry that he can use to take on most generics. There is the horseslayer, reverse naginata, shock stick, and the Swordslayer. You get 3 Shock Sticks and 3 Swordslayers so you can still forge take two for a forge and give them to Hinoka and Baki is still left with some good weaponry. Early game Baki is pretty great thanks to Swallow Strike, the terrain being against land locked units(Ch 8. Ch 10, Ch 11) and the enemies being chumps and easy to take down. Mid-game Baki still does pretty good thanks to promo bonuses, good pair up bonuses, and the weaponry opening up. Yeah he doesn't do anything special really during the mid game(aside from Ch15 and Ch 17), but that isn't really a point against him since mid game is essentially Ryoma rolling over everything.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Finally got my butt to Nohr 13, if it matters (Up to hard mode only, for now....and it's not really 100% accurate either but whatever, it'll do)

N13 Hard

Enemy Levels: 13/14 (Charlotte is definitely underlevelled. I'm still not 100% sure of the exp formula, but it's "possible" that your army is 20/1 by this point. "Possible")

Spellcaster @ Devilish Wind

@ Ox God: 24 HP, 19 ATK, 13 AS, 7 DEF

@ Tiger God: 24 HP, 22 ATK, 14 AS, 6 DEF

Knight @ Confined Defense and/or Defense +2, @ Iron/Steel Lance/Javelin

@ Steel Lance: 31 HP, 28 ATK, 6 AS, 16 DEF

Cavalier @ Iron/Steel/Sword/Lance/Beast Killer

@ Steel Lance: 28 HP, 26 ATK, 11 AS, 13 DEF

Wyvern Rider @ Iron/Steel Axe

@ Steel Axe: 28 HP, 26 ATK, 10 AS, 15 DEF

Charlotte has 33 HP, 15 STR, 13 AS, 8 DEF, 2 RES

She'll probably get 2hko'd by anything on the map...er, she may barely survive against lance users (I'm still not sure about the WTA)

She can't double anything with a Steel (except Javelin Knights but eh), and even with an Iron she can only double the Knights

With an Iron, she 2hko's the Spellcasters (she's at WTD and axes have sucky accuracy, etc, blah)

With Steel, she barely scrapes a 2hko on the Cavaliers. I think she can just hammer the knights really.

The Wyverns need a 3hko with Steel though.

I suppose a +STR/SPD pair up could push her into slightly better territory, but even with an Iron she needs 2 to double the Wyverns, 3 for the Cavaliers. Not entirely impossible,

Benoit has 31 HP, 15 STR, 6 AS, 19+2 DEF, 10 RES

The Spellcasters and Iron Cavaliers double, the Spellcasters 2rko, with the Cavaliers.....doing rubbish (Iron Lance Cavalier has 23 ATK...yeah)

So Spellcasters aside, I guess Benoit isn't too bad...

Offensively, Benoit has 26 ATK.....which isn't very good, somewhat. Fooling around with the Spellcasters aside, he 3hkos the Cavaliers/Wyverns (I think) and 4hkos the Knights...

Let me just see Level 15 Effie

27 HP, 20 STR, 9 SPD, 16+2 DEF, 6 RES. Superpower is triggered except against Knights, so she has about 23 STR, trading 3 DEF for 8 STR (and well, 4 HP and others)

She has ~30 ATK with a Javelin (lol Javelin) so , I think with WTA she can 1hko the Spellcasters. It might not 2hko the Knights though...

With a Steel Lance, she has 34 ATK, which 2hkos everything really.

I think I blabbed long enough as is

[Tooru]

Level 15 Silas:

26HP, 16STR, 12SPD, 14DEF, 7RES.

Iron Lance Cavalier-> Silas: 23-14=9

Iron Lance Cavalier-> Benoit: (23-21)*2=4

When there is Demoiselle, the damage will be 7 and 0.

So I asked again and again why getting doubled but receiving less damage is forcing Benoit to promoted immediately.

SKL is not posted but that makes sense.

Hit rate is a big problem when Effie is using a Javelin/Steel Lance.

Benoit has much higher SKL and Intimidate. Intimidate also helps Effie a lot.

[Ryo]

Training Charlotte can be a pain in the neck in the next few chapters. I had to promote her early at Lv. 14 so she can keep up with the rest of my team. I also had to unequip Roundhouse off her so she could actually hit things earlier on. Even then, she's still very vulnerable and I would only let her attack after the enemy's been damaged to finish them off.

Benoit is much easier to use due to his high Def and workable Str with a Charlotte pair-up.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Ryo

[Duke of Dozel]

Training Charlotte can be a pain in the neck in the next few chapters. I had to promote her early at Lv. 14 so she can keep up with the rest of my team. I also had to unequip Roundhouse off her so she could actually hit things earlier on. Even then, she's still very vulnerable and I would only let her attack after the enemy's been damaged to finish them off.

Benoit is much easier to use due to his high Def and workable Str with a Charlotte pair-up.

And with said pair up, Benoit has just enough speed to not get doubled, making the training process hardly a hassle. He gets too much flack.

[CocoaGalaxy]

For those who are interested, preliminary analysis does show that enemy numbers are the same between Nohr Hard and Nohr Lunatic.

It might change later into the game though, I've only touched Chapter 7 right now, and only have access up to Chapter 10

Summary for those who are interested

Normal: Weapon Rank only as sufficient to wield weapon (with some exceptions I think, but those are like, named characters)

Hard: Weapon Rank minimum C

Lunatic: Weapon Ranks are all maxed

Hoshido Normal: 100% Initial E Count. Usually no skills

Hoshido Hard: 150-200% IEC. Bosses may get more skills, no for generics. More Reinforcements. Guard Stance shows up.

Earlygame: +2 Str/Mag, +2 Def (Knights only). Promoted units get more, but not much more

Lategame (Chap 19 or 21 onwards): +3-5 in relevant stats

Hoshido Lunatic: 200-300% IEC. Bosses may get more skills, no for generics (I think anyway..I still only am up to H11 for Lunatic). More Guard Stance.

Earlygame: Above +3 HP

Lategame: No idea

Nohr Normal: 100% Initial E Count. Some skills

Nohr Hard: 100-150% Initial E Count. More skills

Earlygame: +1-2 in most stats

Lategame: (TBC)

Nohr Lunatic: 100-175 Initial E Count. More skills

Earlygame: Same as above

Lategame: (TBC)

Invisible Kingdom Normal: 100% Initial E Count. No skills

Invisible Kingdom Hard: 100% Initial E Count. Bosses gain some skills...I think

Earlygame: +3-10 in most stats

Lategame: +3-7 in most stats

Invisible Kingdom Lunatic: 100% Initial E Count. Promoted Units gain some crappy skills

Earlygame: +2-5 more on top of the above

Lategame: +2-5 more on top of the above

I was supposed to work on a level chart thingy, but it depends really.

Like I think I mentioned before, currently I believe it's as follows

Base Level is base, I believe

If Level<Enemy Level = Underleveled

If Level=Enemy Level = Balanced

If Level~Enemy Level +5 = Grinded and/or maximum

If Level~Enemy Level +10 = Limit?

If Level>Enemy Level +10 = Logbook/Hack

Working on enemy levels list....the paralogue ones are a different story though, I guess I could do something about them if I so desired to, but they're such a drag

Update

If it interests anyone, Vanguard has an interesting +5 Str +3 Def Pairup Bonus....

Edited October 7, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Tooru]

Training Charlotte can be a pain in the neck in the next few chapters. I had to promote her early at Lv. 14 so she can keep up with the rest of my team. I also had to unequip Roundhouse off her so she could actually hit things earlier on. Even then, she's still very vulnerable and I would only let her attack after the enemy's been damaged to finish them off.

Benoit is much easier to use due to his high Def and workable Str with a Charlotte pair-up.

Benoit deals more damage in Attack Stance than a +Str pair-up.

[-Cynthia-]

And with said pair up, Benoit has just enough speed to not get doubled, making the training process hardly a hassle. He gets too much flack.

Being trainable and being actually good/useful aren't really the same thing though.

[Duke of Dozel]

He's good at base, especially with a pair up, and is at Level 15, meaning you won't feel so guilty promoting him right away if you need to. Plus you can't really train him promoted at that point so it doesn't really matter since you'll have to wait for harder chapters or EXP DLC.

[CocoaGalaxy]

I think, there are several things here, I guess.

For example, different people have different definitions of "good at base"

Another one would be that, comparisons to other units already in the army

The fact that enemy steels make it more difficult for them to double, helps Benoit anyway...to a certain extent anyway.

Tanking in an of itself is...hard to say. The game is really, really weird at times. Really weird

[-Cynthia-]

He's good at base, especially with a pair up, and is at Level 15, meaning you won't feel so guilty promoting him right away if you need to. Plus you can't really train him promoted at that point so it doesn't really matter since you'll have to wait for harder chapters or EXP DLC.

3-4RKOing with low Mov is 'good at base'? To me, that seems like a pretty low bar.

[Duke of Dozel]

He one shots the mages. Kill them all and he gains a level. In fact, if you really wanted, you stick Charlotte to him and have him fight the army for you.

Also he can promote into a great knight and be your filler calvary. Movement issues gone.

[Tooru]

3-4RKOing with low Mov is 'good at base'? To me, that seems like a pretty low bar.

Being ∞HKOed by some enemies is 'bad at base'? To me, that seems like a ∞ high bar.

Lv15 Lazward: STR 16

Lv15 Luna: STR 14

Lv15 Belka: STR 15

Lv15 Pieri: STR 16

Lv15 Silas: STR 16

Lv15 Zero: STR 12

Lv15 Kaze: STR 12

Lv15 Azura: STR 13

Lv15 Jakob: STR 14

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tooru

[-Cynthia-]

Being ∞HKOed by some enemies is 'bad at base'? To me, that seems like a ∞ high bar.

If your preferred playstyle is turtling and durability (only against some enemies) is the only important factor, then yeah I suppose Benoit is pretty good. We could probably solo FE7 with Wallace if we wanted to, it'd just take a few hundred extra turns. Does that make Wallace a good unit?

[Duke of Dozel]

Doesn't make him a bad, or in this thread's case, worst one.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Worst is largely speaking, subjective and relative though......so it could be possible, "if the other characters are better"

...Not that I dislike Benoit or anything, it's just I suppose, one of the things about balance...hmm....

(I suppose they could have made his stats a leetle bit higher, which wouldn't be too overly unreasonable...)

Edited October 7, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Tooru]

If your preferred playstyle is turtling and durability (only against some enemies) is the only important factor, then yeah I suppose Benoit is pretty good. We could probably solo FE7 with Wallace if we wanted to, it'd just take a few hundred extra turns. Does that make Wallace a good unit?

It is durability but it is not turtling.By using Benoit I can go further to trigger more battles (which lead to more damage) in enemy phase.

There are many mount units in Nohr. When we are moving with paring-up, Mov-6 units are not faster than Generals. When a mount unit put Benoit down, that naturally becomes a Attack Stance, in which a solid tank is protecting a glass cannon.

Not all units are Effie. When Benoit is 3HKOing enemies most units are 3HKOing as well (for early game, Benoit is going to have higher STR and SKL than most units soon).

1/3*1.5=1/2 so 3HKO->2HKO when they are using Attack Stance, and anyone who attacks Benoit can be beaten in next turn.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tooru

[CocoaGalaxy]

Honestly speaking, I can't actually recall the last time fire emblem was kind to a very, very slow unit like Benoit

Roughly speaking anyway.......it's honestly hard to say

Anyway I guess I'll do some numbers for Kaze, Saizou, and Kagerou...hmm....so problematic

Well, at least they have the needle shuriken, which "completely obliterates" the armor problems (at range!) that other units may have...though their defenses aren't exactly the best thing.

I was thinking that Kagerou might benefit from the higher str cap (since she won't ram her first tier cap) of Dread Fighter, but I'm too lazy to run the numbers now

Invisible Kingdom also has Hunting Kunai to obliterate the beast units, because you know, ninjas weren't broken enough yet

Hoshido Hard Endgame (20/20 Elite Ninja Kaze/Saizou/Kagerou)

Assume S Rank Kunai (+3 Might), Shura Pair Up (+4 STR/DEF, possibly unfair, but oh well). As a baseline I'll be using Silver Shurikens (10 Might, +2 AS), and top it up with Kunaifaire (+5 Might)

Skipping RES because they're just gonna obliterate magic users

Kaze: 41 HP, 25 STR, 38 SPD, 15 DEF

Saizou: 38 HP, 28 STR, 30 SPD, 26 DEF

Kagerou: 33 HP, 30 STR, 34 SPD, 18 DEF

Offenses:

Kaze: 47 ATK, 40 AS

Saizou: 50 ATK, 32 AS

Kagerou: 52 ATK, 36 AS

Enemy data is extrapolated from HE Normal Data (because well, data is data), so it may not be 100% correct

Hero: 52 HP, 41 ATK, 28 AS, 23 DEF

Berserker: 60 HP, 50 ATK, 27 AS, 18 DEF

Wyvern Lord: 48 HP, 44 ATK, 22 AS, 32 DEF

Small list I know, I was lazy...

Technically the Dark Knights aren't so bad, but..eh

Kagerou ORKO's the Hero (I think if he uses Axe, the WTD means it's no longer a ORKO though), Saizou hits once, Kaze hits twice and ORKOs due to WTA if Hero uses Sword

All three ORKO the Berserker

The Wyvern Lord scrapes by I guess, it's 2RKO'd

Defensively

Kaze: 41 HP, 19 DEF

Saizou: 38 HP, 30 DEF

Kagerou: 33 HP, 22 DEF

The Berserker 2HKOs all three of them. Saizou is 3HKO'd by the Wyvern Lord, Kaze and Kagerou 2hko'd. Saizou is 4HKO'd by the Hero, Kaze and Kagerou 2HKO'd

Honestly speaking, I still can't tell who I'd prefer....

Technically a +Spd pairup would boost Saizou by a bit, allowing him to double the Hero

Next up, Takumi

Since I have the above numbers already, I just need to ...slap on a few others (I'm not doing magic again, this time because Takumi's resistance sucks and I "know" he'll get 2HKO'd or something)

20/20 Holy Bowman Takumi (Prescient Victory, Bowfaire, S Bows). Trueblade Pairup because speed is the only thing you really need to fix on him.

Takumi: 44 HP, 55 ATK, 35 AS , 24 DEF

HE Hard General: 56 HP, 50 ATK, 12 SPD, 37 DEF

Takumi onerounds the Hero and the Berserker. And the Wyvern Lord, of course. (I think he might not scrape a 1hko on the Wyvern Lord, 2 tank 4 him)

Takum 2RKO's the General

Defensively...Takumi isn't so hot. Aforementioned magic users (~30+ ATK) 2RKO him.

He can at least take 2 hits from the Hero and Wyvern Lord, uh, I think. The Berserker and General 2HKO him though, so while he can take some hits, he's not a tank either

I think that's enough rambling by me for now...such rambling

[Dark Sage]

The only reason why Benoit seems good now is because we've barely scratched the surface of the game and haven't made a serious attempt at quick and high-level playthrough. I can guarantee that once people start seriously applying themselves to that, Benoit's gonna look like a chump and Elise is not going to want to be an armor knight for very long.

[Tooru]

The only reason why Benoit seems good now is because we've barely scratched the surface of the game and haven't made a serious attempt at quick and high-level playthrough. I can guarantee that once people start seriously applying themselves to that, Benoit's gonna look like a chump and Elise is not going to want to be an armor knight for very long.

Before guaranteeing why don't you just have a try?

How many turns did you need to finish Lunatic Nohr Chapter 21? How many times did you restart? For high-level we need to beat every enemies that offers EXP, of course.

The map is a good example of how to be quick by using multi-tanks.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Tooru

[Dark Sage]

Before guaranteeing why don't you just have a try?

How many turns did you need to finish Lunatic Nohr Chapter 21? How many times did you restart? For high-level we need to beat every enemies that offers EXP, of course.

The map is a good example of how to be quick by using multi-tanks.

I do not own the game so I cannot try it myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if your definition of fast is really fucking slow.

I think you missed the point about what I meant by high level play. I mean high skill and execution, not literally trying to get the most levels.

I mean this happens in every new FE game: when Shadow Dragon, New Mystery and Awakening came out, people claimed high move was useless and generals were the shit but when people actually pushed themselves and got better at the game, those beliefs were proven incorrect everytime.

[Tooru]

I do not own the game so I cannot try it myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if your definition of fast is really fucking slow.

I think you missed the point about what I meant by high level play. I mean high skill and execution, not literally trying to get the most levels.

I mean this happens in every new FE game: when Shadow Dragon, New Mystery and Awakening came out, people claimed high move was useless and generals were the shit but when people actually pushed themselves and got better at the game, those beliefs were proven incorrect everytime.

OK, you don't have the game so it is impossible for you to understand why getting all EXP in that map shows "high skill and execution".

It is also impossible for you to understand how the pairing-up and Attack Stance fix some units' low Mov.

You may know that the balance of stats are different for different games, but you don't know how it works in IF.

I must be having a low-level playthough, since I successfully beat all enemies in Lunatic Nohr 10 and 12 for more EXP and items XD.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Tooru