Shin Megami Tensei IV: Final

[Masked And Dangerous]

I'm not doubting it will be a good, no, It just really really smell otaku-bait and Persona BS, well, we'll see, but I'm not too hot. A ghost-chibi is bad enough, but Navarre's ? Seriously... -- (Good voice though)

They didn't thought of a better design for an 'Outlaw Huner' than a shotacon, let alone the main character ? Sigh.

Er, beside SMTI, no SMT have a canon ending. Well, you could probably count SJ, DS2, and now IV, because of the obvious neutral bias and favoritism. Atlus really is not what they used to be.

Look, they're obviously aiming at a younger market. You can tell that just by looking at how young the cast is and the chibi-ghost. The good news about that is that aiming at a younger market will mean less pervy stuff compared to say... SMTxFE. So calling the lead a shotacon is kind of a misnomer.

As for the second thing... not so much. SMTII obviously leans on I's neutral ending, but Nocturne has Aleph show up as Hijiri, showing that II's Neutral ending where YHVH curses Aleph to an existence of constant reincarnation where he is unable to affect the outcome, is true. Meanwhile, Demifiend's appearance in DDS, as well as the angels running around like headless chickens later on, shows that the True Demon ending is true.

Strange Journey's really the only one that doesn't show it's ending, although if IV follows it then obviously the Neutral ending is true.

[Jedi]

Er, beside SMTI, no SMT have a canon ending. Well, you could probably count SJ, DS2, and now IV, because of the obvious neutral bias and favoritism. Atlus really is not what they used to be.

Neutral has always been the canonical choice in every SMT, you make it seem like its more of a recent thing.

Also you are simply just complaining about everything again, do you do anything else?

Edited October 6, 2015 by Jedi

[B.Leu]

Guys I wasn't aiming at making this a discussion about what ending is canon or not...

No, my grip was that recently, SMT is biased toward neutral/japan/humans, and yeah, that's a recent thing. Though I'd argue that Neutral isn't really about being neutrality anymore. Remember SMTIII with, what, 6 endings, who weren't even about the Law/Chaos/Neutral system ? Or Devil Survivor with 5 endings ? 1 Law, 1 Chaos, and 3 others that could be called neutral with different shade of grey. And even then, we could argue if it's really about those aligments too.

In SJ and IV, only three path and Neutral is the obvious Golden Path with everything, where everybody is happy (sans your extremist buddies) with the power of humanity (!!!) and is the path to do just because. Like your everyday JRPG.

And let's not even talk about conveniently those two neutral routes are implemented. Oh boy.

Or you choose Law/Chaos, you'll feel like a dick and an idiot because you took the ending that give you no sense of satisfaction or closure whatsoever, no, we didn't have that in past SMT.

This is why I love SMTIII and DS1 so freaking much. In the end, this is your choice and you choose what to think. Characters tell you what to think but this is the characters, not the story.

...It does seem hypocritical of me to say that, since DS1 had a lot of BS moment of 'you must do X' and about shonen-like 'the right thing', but you see my point no ? In the end, it's your choice..

I feel like SMT, and even Atlus in general, took lot of steps backward in term of story.

That, holy crap, I do look like a negative jackass, it's wasn't my intention. :/

I suppose you could say that I'm cautious and I'm talking more about my fear, and putting some joke there and there.

Why should I focus on how shota the hero is, if it wasn't half-of-a-joke ?...

Look, they're obviously aiming at a younger market. You can tell that just by looking at how young the cast is and the chibi-ghost. The good news about that is that aiming at a younger market will mean less pervy stuff compared to say... SMTxFE. So calling the lead a shotacon is kind of a misnomer.

Well that would make sense if it was aimed at a younger market. But I'm doubt it since it seems like a sequel to SMTIV, and it's still SMTIV. I still fondly remember the farm tower thing !

Plus, have you seen the legs of the red girl ? Eh that's not for kids. :p

Edited October 6, 2015 by B.Leu

[Masked And Dangerous]

I'm 90% sure Red Girl was Nozomi from the first game

[The Funniest Valentine]

Screenshots from Famitsu:

Krishna (flute) and Mermaid (green hair) look very nice.

[Masked And Dangerous]

If you want to examine the pages for yourself, they are here

And according to Gematsu, they are refining that partner system from IV (the one where it paired you with a random partner who would strike with elements that enemies were null to half the time) into a buddy system. Now, you choose a partner to bring with you, who levels up alongside the protagonist. Each partner has a different specialty, for example blue girl is a healbot.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Masked And Dangerous

[B.Leu]

If you want to examine the pages for yourself, they are here

And according to Gematsu, they are refining that partner system from IV (the one where it paired you with a random partner who would strike with elements that enemies were null to half the time) into a buddy system. Now, you choose a partner to bring with you, who levels up alongside the protagonist. Each partner has a different specialty, for example blue girl is a healbot.

Very good ! As much as love SMTIV battle system, It was always irritating to have your partner being crap.

Especially when your partner wasn't even a common dude. *wink wink spoiler wink*

[OakTree]

Hopefully they will bring back deffensive stats, the lack of them in IV made it pretty much a case of "Whoever strikes first wins".

[Jedi]

Good to hear about the partner system. While Isabeau was generally helpful.

Walter ended it thus

And Jonathan showed his samurai skill vs the wrong opponents a little too often for me

[hen]

Now we just need the protags default name, the demon's name, and the purple one's name

Screenshots from Famitsu:

Krishna (flute) and Mermaid (green hair) look very nice.

[hen]

I'm 90% sure Red Girl was Nozomi from the first game

Red girl is Asahi,I think, Nozomi

is a god now i think

, I mean she could be if Nozomi aged backwards though

Hey, Medusa got a redesign:

Edited October 7, 2015 by EdenAaron

[OakTree]

Asahi is the girl in blue clothes.

Also, the demon is named Daguza/Dagda while the main character's name in screenshots is "Nanashi" ("Nameless")

Edited October 7, 2015 by OakTree

[Masked And Dangerous]

Asahi is the girl in blue clothes.

Also, the demon is named Daguza/Dagda while the main character's name in screenshots is "Nanashi" ("Nameless")

Dagda, Celtic King deity. Had a club that could slay any man, or it's handle could resurrect them.

Anyone else notice that Protag has the same sigil that Dagda has around his neck tattooed on his left arm?

[The Funniest Valentine]

Large version of the promo art along with another promo image:

I didn't notice the demon/character on the bottom left of the first image. You can also see Adramelech's head next to Dagda's head and behind the kanji.

I'm really digging Doi's work with the demons. His new stuff is good and while I still don't like the core designs of the returning ones from IV, he made them a lot more presentable.

Edited October 7, 2015 by The Funniest Valentine

[OakTree]

Guys I wasn't aiming at making this a discussion about what ending is canon or not...

No, my grip was that recently, SMT is biased toward neutral/japan/humans, and yeah, that's a recent thing. Though I'd argue that Neutral isn't really about being neutrality anymore. Remember SMTIII with, what, 6 endings, who weren't even about the Law/Chaos/Neutral system ? Or Devil Survivor with 5 endings ? 1 Law, 1 Chaos, and 3 others that could be called neutral with different shade of grey. And even then, we could argue if it's really about those aligments too.

In SJ and IV, only three path and Neutral is the obvious Golden Path with everything, where everybody is happy (sans your extremist buddies) with the power of humanity (!!!) and is the path to do just because. Like your everyday JRPG.

And let's not even talk about conveniently those two neutral routes are implemented. Oh boy.

Or you choose Law/Chaos, you'll feel like a dick and an idiot because you took the ending that give you no sense of satisfaction or closure whatsoever, no, we didn't have that in past SMT.

This is why I love SMTIII and DS1 so freaking much. In the end, this is your choice and you choose what to think. Characters tell you what to think but this is the characters, not the story.

...It does seem hypocritical of me to say that, since DS1 had a lot of BS moment of 'you must do X' and about shonen-like 'the right thing', but you see my point no ? In the end, it's your choice..

I feel like SMT, and even Atlus in general, took lot of steps backward in term of story.

That, holy crap, I do look like a negative jackass, it's wasn't my intention. :/

I suppose you could say that I'm cautious and I'm talking more about my fear, and putting some joke there and there.

Why should I focus on how shota the hero is, if it wasn't half-of-a-joke ?...

Well that would make sense if it was aimed at a younger market. But I'm doubt it since it seems like a sequel to SMTIV, and it's still SMTIV. I still fondly remember the farm tower thing !

Plus, have you seen the legs of the red girl ? Eh that's not for kids. :p

I disagree, how is Nocturne better than SMTIV in that aspect? In the end of the game your choice is basically Neutral or True Demon, all of the Reason endings are bad (Except MAYBE Musubi) and i don't even need to say anything about the Demon ending, do i? DeSu2, in my opinion, did the whole "Someone with strong ideals shall decide how the next world will be" thing much better in my opinion.

[OakTree]

Guys I wasn't aiming at making this a discussion about what ending is canon or not...

No, my grip was that recently, SMT is biased toward neutral/japan/humans, and yeah, that's a recent thing. Though I'd argue that Neutral isn't really about being neutrality anymore. Remember SMTIII with, what, 6 endings, who weren't even about the Law/Chaos/Neutral system ? Or Devil Survivor with 5 endings ? 1 Law, 1 Chaos, and 3 others that could be called neutral with different shade of grey. And even then, we could argue if it's really about those aligments too.

In SJ and IV, only three path and Neutral is the obvious Golden Path with everything, where everybody is happy (sans your extremist buddies) with the power of humanity (!!!) and is the path to do just because. Like your everyday JRPG.

And let's not even talk about conveniently those two neutral routes are implemented. Oh boy.

Or you choose Law/Chaos, you'll feel like a dick and an idiot because you took the ending that give you no sense of satisfaction or closure whatsoever, no, we didn't have that in past SMT.

This is why I love SMTIII and DS1 so freaking much. In the end, this is your choice and you choose what to think. Characters tell you what to think but this is the characters, not the story.

...It does seem hypocritical of me to say that, since DS1 had a lot of BS moment of 'you must do X' and about shonen-like 'the right thing', but you see my point no ? In the end, it's your choice..

I feel like SMT, and even Atlus in general, took lot of steps backward in term of story.

That, holy crap, I do look like a negative jackass, it's wasn't my intention. :/

I suppose you could say that I'm cautious and I'm talking more about my fear, and putting some joke there and there.

Why should I focus on how shota the hero is, if it wasn't half-of-a-joke ?...

Well that would make sense if it was aimed at a younger market. But I'm doubt it since it seems like a sequel to SMTIV, and it's still SMTIV. I still fondly remember the farm tower thing !

Plus, have you seen the legs of the red girl ? Eh that's not for kids. :p

I disagree, how is Nocturne better than SMTIV in that aspect? In the end of the game your choice is basically Neutral or True Demon, all of the Reason endings are bad (Except MAYBE Musubi) and i don't even need to say anything about the Demon ending, do i? DeSu2, in my opinion, did the whole "Someone with strong ideals shall decide how the next world will be" thing much better in my opinion.

[Masked And Dangerous]

I disagree, how is Nocturne better than SMTIV in that aspect? In the end of the game your choice is basically Neutral or True Demon, all of the Reason endings are bad (Except MAYBE Musubi) and i don't even need to say anything about the Demon ending, do i? DeSu2, in my opinion, did the whole "Someone with strong ideals shall decide how the next world will be" thing much better in my opinion.

Nocturne is probably just better liked. The presentation was top notch, the story treads new ground, and most of the characters are a lot better rounded.

IV's fatal flaw is it's adherence to fanservice. Not the sexual kind, the continuity kind. The leads are deliberately modeled off the heroes from the SMTI, the return to a mostly intact apocalyptic Tokyo, the reappearance of Lillith in a Demonica, et cetera. IV played it safe, storywise, in a way that none of the previous games had done.

[OakTree]

Nocturne is probably just better liked. The presentation was top notch, the story treads new ground, and most of the characters are a lot better rounded.

IV's fatal flaw is it's adherence to fanservice. Not the sexual kind, the continuity kind. The leads are deliberately modeled off the heroes from the SMTI, the return to a mostly intact apocalyptic Tokyo, the reappearance of Lillith in a Demonica, et cetera. IV played it safe, storywise, in a way that none of the previous games had done.

That's true, Nocturne had great presentation and a great atmosphere, alongside an interesting world. Which is another thing i feel Final could improve upon IV, i mean: Shinjuku? Shibuya? Roppongi? Ikebukuro? These are all forgetable places because they're all the same: Districts infested with demons, the only memorable places were Mikado and the alternate timelines.

[Masked And Dangerous]

That's true, Nocturne had great presentation and a great atmosphere, alongside an interesting world. Which is another thing i feel Final could improve upon IV, i mean: Shinjuku? Shibuya? Roppongi? Ikebukuro? These are all forgetable places because they're all the same: Districts infested with demons, the only memorable places were Mikado and the alternate timelines.

Yeah. There was an analysis posted last month that put it best:

"Considering that, as of the SMTIV’s development, the swords-and-sorcery RPGs of yesteryear had been largely surmounted by those with high schools or otherwise modern settings, Mikado’s castles and castes may be a sly, very deliberate commentary about contemporaneous trends in the Japanese game industry. Though it doesn’t take long for the game to break Mikado’s medieval illusion, the irony of SMT retaining its edge by mimicking former rivals (i.e., Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy) would surely not be lost on Kaneko."

Edited October 8, 2015 by Masked And Dangerous

[B.Leu]

It's simple, SMTIV tell you what to think (and stupidly with that). in Nocturne, it's up to you to decide without anyone or anything telling you otherwise, let alone the writing itself. Kinda sorta like Dark Souls.

I dunno about you, but I prefer having 6 endings, 3 that are most likely here as a bait and a mockery of the usual law/neutral/chaos BS and 2/3 endings that are about the behind-of-the-scene, rather than 3 endings with just one having any kind of work behind or sense of closure.

I dunno, am I the only one who's annoyed by the Neutral/japan/human/friendship bias ?

IV's fatal flaw is it's adherence to fanservice. Not the sexual kind, the continuity kind. The leads are deliberately modeled off the heroes from the SMTI, the return to a mostly intact apocalyptic Tokyo, the reappearance of Lillith in a Demonica, et cetera. IV played it safe, storywise, in a way that none of the previous games had done.

This too, but... I dunno, but I feel like the plot doesn't go any-freaking-where at all, you have to wait until the last moment of the game to get something, and even then, it's not much. Remember the alternate timelines ? They were great, I loved them yeah, but what was the point ? Most things in this plot just seem to placed at random and just confuse me more than anything, and not in a good way.

Not that it is really bad, I enjoyed it quite a bit, but still, when I look at it, it's not stellar.

Edited October 8, 2015 by B.Leu

[Cancer Lancer]

I liked SMT IV's chaos ending, though.

The false kingdom crumbles under the weight of its lies. And now, you're going to become the King who can create a kingdom of truth.

Give or take a few thousand deaths of civilians and noncombatants, but hey that's what revolution is all about!

[OakTree]

So it seems that in this game there is a third force that opposes both Chaos and Law factions: Krishna and the Old Deities, apparently, when Merkabah's and Lucifer's war was nearing it's end, Krishna descended from the skies and told the people of Tokyo that if mankind acted as a sacrifice, they could get rid of Lucifer and the angels permanently.

This premise could work, Krishna could be an "All roads lead to One" kind of villain, the one where it doesn't matter what path you take, he opposes you, similar to YHVH in SMTII, and the Old Deities have also probably wronged Daguza/Dagda in the past, as he revives the protagonist for the specific purpose of "Killing all Gods".

The story has potential and could end up much better than IV's story, all they have to do is balance both the positive and negative sides from the Law and Chaos factions, make sure the Neutral Ending also has some consequences and is not too perfect, and try to make Tokyo an overall more interesting place to travel through.

[Masked And Dangerous]

Krishna seems to be this game's answer to the White, a Neutral antagonist who embodies the worst qualities of Neutral (namely the murder everybody "We saved the city, Patrick!" aspect that has been prevalent since SMT I)

[Leif]

I am excited for this. I played SMTIV a long time ago and enjoyed it. I was surprised that I got to the Neutral Ending through my first blind run of it, though.

This game looks interesting, especially with that brown-colored demon dude who seems to be a major character. My complaint regarding SMTIV was that the demons were more interesting characters than the protagonists themselves. I also didn't like some of the boss designs--they clashed with the overall art style of the game looking at you Medusa.

I watched an LP of Nocturne, and I think that SMTIV isn't as good, in terms of story, characters, and presentation. Nocturne battles looked awesome in 3D. I don't prefer the 2D, faux 3D style of SMTIV and this SMTIV Final game. Nocturne has those annoying random encounters, though... I liked how you could potentially avoid battles in SMTIV.

[Original Alear]

My complaint regarding SMTIV was that the demons were more interesting characters than the protagonists themselves.

To be honest, this is how I feel about most SMT I've played. Haven't touched nocturne though.