Why are people mad that Cloud is in Smash?

[Jedi]

The Compilation as a whole was a wasted opportunity. AC is a technical marvel with amazingly creative action scenes, but unfortunately the plot is rote with a clumsy script and really doesn't get the characters of the series (seriously, even Cloud at his mopiest wasn't anywhere NEAR as sullen as he is in AC, they forget Aerith was actually a flirty, outgoing tomboy, and they never bring up how the Turks DROPPED A CITY ON THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, MURDERING THEM), Dirge of Cerberus was just AWFUL as a game and did nothing for the overarching plot, and Crisis Core had Genesis, one of the most irritating characters that SE has ever produced. All in all, just a mess of an idea that never lived up to its potential and unfortunately led to Square doing another projects like it with the Ivalice Alliance (which only produced ONE decent game in FF Tactics Advance 2) and FFXIII's iteration with two terrible sequels to an already insufferable game (and where the two games originally intended to be interconnected to it became a spinoff and the next numbered entry in the series respectively, as if SE had finally figured out XIII and Toriyama's beloved Lightning had overstayed their welcome). Not a good legacy to have.

XIII's perceived quality, which you seem to loathe, probably wouldn't be a good idea to bring up considering the Love or Hate nature of the game, like I enjoyed it, not a favorite, but I don't see whats so offensive about it that people react to it... The same way people are reacting to Cloud in smash now that I think about it.

Also I'm gonna side with Raven on this one, FF13 isn't like other FF games, but thats the entire series, I don't think I've come across people who have the exact same opinions when it comes to any FF.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Jedi

[Aiddon]

I haven't played LR: FF13 yet and I really haven't looked too much into FF13-2's story (cause it definitely lost me, but I admittedly didn't pay as much attention as I should have) but what was wrong with FF13?

I really don't get why people are so quick to jump on the FF13 hate train. You gotta at least acknowledge its merits, because it's definitely not a game for everyone - just like how everyone doesn't have the same views on which FF games are amazing and which aren't.

Furthermore, the Ivalice Alliance's only game that seemed to garner almost universal negative reviews was like Revenant Wings. Off the top of my head the main games are FF12, Vagrant Story, and FFT and I may be missing a few that were lesser known but people generally liked the Ivalice Alliance. Don't project your feelings onto others lol

And don't ignore what is going on in the world. Just because you know a handful of people who liked them, doesn't mean the criticisms weren't real or didn't have merit. For example:

1. FFXIII has exactly ONE merit: pretty environments, and even those come with a serious qualifying statements considering that the art design itself is pretty rote and lazy and you have nothing to do with them except view them as you walk down the most linear path in RPG history. FFX wasn't that ramrod straight. Everything else is a mess; the story is sloppy and sappy (as well as failing basic writing tenets such as providing proper exposition), the characters unlikable and stupid (though Sazh was alright, even if it's clear he wasn't SUPPOSED to be a decent character), the combat braindead, with zero exploration added as the cherry on top. It really is an awful game and there's a REASON there was a tsunami of backlash against it and why Agito XIII became Type Zero and vs XIII became FF XV: the brand was toxic and it needed to be buried. And good riddance.

2. As for FF XII, it too had problems with a mess of a narrative (which came about because of Matsuno walking off set due to executive BS), characters that are flat or pointless, and a combat system with nothing but contempt for the player. It has exactly TWO merits: a very interesting, richly detailed world and good music (though it doesn't hold a candle to Sakimoto's other works like in Vagrant Story, Tactics Ogre, Odin Sphere, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, and Dragon's Crown). Revenant Wings was okay, not great, while FFT was already a classic back in 1998, and FFTA2 was fine in gameplay if lacking in narrative. Oh, and Vagrant Story is not a part of the Ivalice Alliance branding, which was why it never received any attention from Square when FFXII was getting hyped up (and thank Buddha Mr. Riot hasn't been seen again because I'd hate to think what the current Square would do to him). It's just a reminder that Square willfully screwed over the ONE guy capable of taking the franchise in a bold, new direction. Not a good legacy to have.

Ultimately, FF has not been through a good decade. And with Square's current pool of talent being pretty bad, that's unlikely to change. At the least they got Bravely Default.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Aiddon

[Lord Raven]

And don't ignore what is going on in the world. Just because you know a handful of people who liked them, doesn't mean the criticisms weren't real or didn't have merit. For example:

You're basically saying: I hate this game, therefore it's a bad game.

No game is perfect. That doesn't mean that FF13 deserved as much shit as it got.

You've said nothing substantiative. In fact, my counterarguments:

FFXIII has exactly ONE merit: pretty environments, and even those come with a serious qualifying statements considering that the art design itself is pretty rote and lazy and you have nothing to do with them except view them as you walk down the most linear path in RPG history. FFX wasn't that ramrod straight.

Yes it was (as in, FFX was that straight). It also stopped being linear on Pulse.

Everything else is a mess; the story is sloppy and sappy

No it's not

(as well as failing basic writing tenets such as providing proper exposition)

So, like in the datalog?

the characters unlikable and stupid (though Sazh was alright, even if it's clear he wasn't SUPPOSED to be a decent character)

No they're not and yes he was

the combat braindead

No it wasn't.

with zero exploration added as the cherry on top.

Gran Pulse?

It really is an awful game

No it's not.

and there's a REASON there was a tsunami of backlash against it and why Agito XIII became Type Zero

That doesn't explain why Type-0 was still in the same universe, you know it was still Fabula Novalis whatever 13 right? Furthermore, this tsunami of backlash has happened to just about every FF game that wasn't FFX since FF7. Nobody gave a shit about FF9 until very recently.

and vs XIII became FF XV

This was due to its exceedingly long development cycle.

the brand was toxic and it needed to be buried. And good riddance.

Makes perfect sense why Type-0 recycles ideas from it, and makes sense why there's a trilogy, then.

Haven't played enough FF12 to argue there, but I enjoyed what I've played.

Ultimately, FF has not been through a good decade. And with Square's current pool of talent being pretty bad, that's unlikely to change. At the least they got Bravely Default.

Bravely Default is great, but you know, FF13 characters are so stupid m i rite? Edited November 19, 2015 by Lord Raven

[B.Leu]

FF isn't really the same since X. Not saying that I disliked X though.

I remember the first time I ever heard of VII, it was the 3D movie Advent Children, I believe, and crap, that was freaking emo and over the top... and pretty. When I actually decided to look at the game I was pretty impressed, pretty much for reasons that CrimeaRoyalKnight stated.

I was shocked to see how much I liked Cloud and Aerith !

Black Mage is a great idea, but the problem in my opinion, is that it would be too much similar to Robin, who have limitation to his spells. I don't think that putting a MP system would be a smart idea. I think he would represent the series well though, but it doesn't seem to be as much popular as Cloud. (Alas.)

... Chocobos ! I just thought about it, seriously, just imagine it !

[Busterman64]

FF isn't really the same since X. Not saying that I disliked X though.

I remember the first time I ever heard of VII, it was the 3D movie Advent Children, I believe, and crap, that was freaking emo and over the top... and pretty. When I actually decided to look at the game I was pretty impressed, pretty much for reasons that CrimeaRoyalKnight stated.

I was shocked to see how much I liked Cloud and Aerith !

Black Mage is a great idea, but the problem in my opinion, is that it would be too much similar to Robin, who have limitation to his spells. I don't think that putting a MP system would be a smart idea. I think he would represent the series well though, but it doesn't seem to be as much popular as Cloud. (Alas.)

... Chocobos ! I just thought about it, seriously, just imagine it !

You can say that again!

[Lord Raven]

FF technically hasn't been the same since... FF1.

[NoNameAtAll]

As an onlooker, the greatest thing in any of the FFXIII games from what I've seen (I can't play 'em due to a lack of a PS3 and lol using a laptop for a game like this.):

I like Gilgamesh, okay? FFV's my favorite of the series bar none.

Edited November 19, 2015 by NoNameAtAll

[secondworld]

Well Gilgamesh is the best character in the series after all.

[Emeraldfox]

As an onlooker, the greatest thing in any of the FFXIII games from what I've seen (I can't play 'em due to a lack of a PS3 and lol using a laptop for a game like this.):

I like Gilgamesh, okay? FFV's my favorite of the series bar none.

Which FF13 is this. I have all three.

[Bankai]

Which FF13 is this. I have all three.

I believe that's 13-2.

[Tsunami922]

Which FF13 is this. I have all three.

I believe that's 13-2.

This is correct. That's from 13-2.

[Lord Raven]

Which FF13 is this. I have all three.

It's DLC for the Coliseum in 13-2, to be specific.

[Water Mage]

As an onlooker, the greatest thing in any of the FFXIII games from what I've seen (I can't play 'em due to a lack of a PS3 and lol using a laptop for a game like this.):

I like Gilgamesh, okay? FFV's my favorite of the series bar none.

Yay! Another one who thinks FFV is the best in the series! Those are a rarity.

I thought was was the only one.

Gilgamesh is cool, but I'm more of a Ghido fanboy, you will never find a snarkier guy in Final Fantasy.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Water Mage

[Leona]

I prefer the Fate series Gilgamesh, this one isn't as cute

[Baldrick]

FF technically hasn't been the same since... FF1.

No, FF1 totally jumped the shark.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Oh. So that's the phantom in the arena of FF13-2. I never actually found out and knew.

[Jedi]

Yeah i've never gotten the whole "After this certain FF, the entire series changed", when literally none of the games have had the same mechanics, the closest you get to similar mechanics are like, FF3, FF5 and FF10-2 sharing mechanics, 6-7, Esper and Materia system working SLIGHTLY similar, and like... FF4, FF6 and FF9 having character class roles...? But those still have tons of differences.

[secondworld]

Well the same basic gameplay foundations stayed true for the first ten games, but after X-2 we've gotten two main series mmos, FFXII, the FFXIII games particularly Lighting Returns, and the upcoming FFXV. That's just looking at things from a gameplay perspective.

Yay! Another one who thinks FFV is the best in the series! Those are a rarity.
I thought was was the only one.

Gilgamesh is cool, but I'm more of a Ghido fanboy, you will never find a snarkier guy in Final Fantasy.

The only thing keeping FFV from being my favorite is the existence of FFIV DS.

FFV just has one of the most solid casts in general. Exdeath is great too, dude has more ham than every other villain in the series combined. "TURTLE!"

I prefer the Fate series Gilgamesh, this one isn't as cute

But is that one voiced by John DiMaggio?

I'm pretty sure that's grounds for an instant win.

Edited November 20, 2015 by DavidSW

[euklyd]

After FF6, the entire series changed. A completely new dimension was added to the games.

[Jedi]

After FF6, the entire series changed. A completely new dimension was added to the games.

Farewell Mode-7 we knew thee well.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I, too, think FFV is the best.

Just wanted to say that, now I'll go back draw Butz Candy Bartz in sheep clothing.

[NoNameAtAll]

After FF6, the entire series changed. A completely new dimension was added to the games.

I thought after V, everything changed. What with Sakaguchi not having as much of a role as before.

I get the joke, but in all seriousness on my end.

[claire]

dont care

would prefer someone else but its okay

[Samias]

[spoiler=disorganized rant on why I disliked FFXIII complete with many endgame spoilers] FFXIII is not the worst game in existence but I did not enjoy it. The overuse of in-universe terms? Absolutely not an issue for jRPG or even FF fanatics but it was brought up by multiple critics when the game launched. Tales and Disgaea games are regularly more obtuse than this. HOWEVER, FFXIII loves to throw around these grand concepts while continually forgetting where exactly they're taking the plot. Despite the hallway design of every area (not an issue, we've played hallway simulator regularly in previous FF games even if they were slightly more labyrinthine and no one complained), the plot meanders, the party gets continually split up, and progression constantly goes from crazy to non existent with one of the least engaging level up mechanics ever conceived in the series. Gear upgrades are poorly explained. You just kind of dump parts into it and fill up big numbers and sometimes certain things combine together for bonus modifiers and there was really no need for the system to be so complicated. It's not a crafting system and yet it has so many fiddly bits to it that don't amount to much in the end. Shopping terminals in general are weird. We're fugitives. The shop owners know we're fugitives. The juggling of in-game reasons for soldiers to not immediately converge on our position is just silly in a game that takes itself way too seriously. The shop mechanics are poorly thought out in general.

Combat relies more heavily on switching roles of the team rather than managing skills, because time wasted is more chance for you to go from green HP to dead before your ATB bar fills. I could see some people enjoying this and having the reflexes to manage everything but the enemy keeps nomming on your face during paradigm shifts so I found battles to be simultaneously anti-fun but horrendously boring. Your mileage may vary here as someone with more mastery of the system probably can derive a lot of enjoyment out of managing their staggers and launches effectively while keeping themselves alive. This is the strongest part of the game, at least, but also a bit of a buzzkill for people who liked the slower pace of older FF games. On the heels of FF11 and FF12, both also radical departures from classic RPG structure, I can see a lot of the classic fandom struggling to stay engaged with the series in general. I find the battle music is kind of eh. Speaking of music...

I like Hamauzu's music, especially his field tunes, but Blinded By Light is kind of a boring battle song for being the main theme. In my eyes, allowing Naoshi Mizuta and Mitsuto Suzuki's work to be more prominent in FFXIII-2 was an improvement, leaving Hamauzu for pivotal story moments. For such J-pop inspired visuals of the main characters, I just enjoyed the more electro-pop songs the games offered up compared to the grandiose orchestra. Also Crazy Chocobo

With the systems out of the way, here's the heart of why I really did not enjoy FFXIII: THE SCRIPT. Inappropriately corny catchphrases and puns("Moms are tough!" "We have hope!"), mixed in with over-the-top melodramatic moments, and plotpoints that seem like mistakes. The funny bits of Woolsey's scripts in the early days of FF were matched up to the silliness of the sprites and the lighthearted visuals. Without voice acting, they could get away with cheesy exclamations and catchphrases and at least we wouldn't be able to immediately tell if that sounded stupid for anyone to say out loud. Now we have a bunch of dour teens on a meandering adventure to kill the world's god-like entities because they want to die except they need to fight you off and hinder you but no, really, they want to die? And they'll have a big long cutscene after cutscene that shows characters who you thought died with literally no reaction of "WTF how'd he live through that". How many times does Yaag Rosch need to blow up before it gets him killed? Cid dramatically turns to crystal feeling free of his burdens after you defeat him when he defies his focus... only to return one scene later to be shot by his former friend in an insanely convoluted plot to incite the masses with terror? What? Every beautiful cutscene in this game feels like it was all animated and rendered before they finalized the script for the game, leading to far too many moments where the story has to backtrack and erase what it just did because they didn't mean for someone to die at that moment, but they reaaaally wanted it to look cool and didn't want to throw out any work. You end up having a logical scenario for Snow and Lightning to awaken their eidolons in times of extreme pressure. Then the leadup to Sazh's eidolon battle was cringeworthy at how forced the atmosphere was. Fang's Bahamut was a moment of "I guess so??" On Gran Pulse they'd just drop an eidolon battle with the elegance of a panicked elephant. Hope slingshots between resolute and hopeless (fuck those Hope puns by the way, I want to strangle Lightning with every utterance of "We have hope" to Hope's face) at seemingly random intervals to finally just summon Alexander because the game is nearly over and they resolved everything important with Hope ages ago. Vanille and Fang's hot potato with Ragnarok guilt is poorly communicated to the point where I thought the plot summary was just pulling shit out its ass and so we could fight Hecatoncheir.

...I am super glad we didn't get Lightning or I think the internet REALLY would have exploded, to be honest. Personally I really wanted Rydia or Terra, with Rydia being a whip fighter and having all those summons at her disposal and Terra being a more graceful swordfighter than even Marth and with a magic bent as well, but oh well. Cloud is one of my favourite FF protagonists if I blot out the existence of AC.

[The DanMan]

^To be fair, the Directors Cut of AC added some scenes whose main purpose were to de-emphasize Cloud's "emo-ness".