Ken Masters Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Calais refugee camp is confirmed to be burning. EDIT: Obviously this happened 3 days ago already, but is notewhorty nontheless that shit is going down over there too at this very moment Edited November 14, 2015 by Great Lord Diego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) The only way to stop these people who are hellbent on your death is to kill them. And everyone around them just to wipe them out. If nobody exists, no more evil exists. In plain words, it would take a genocide to stop these people entirely. And am I saying to do it? Maybe I am because I know that they want me dead for sure. quoted so you won't be able to take this back i don't know what makes you think that this is a feasible plan Edited November 14, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughx Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 We have a lot of french members here. (Even if I speak french, I am a francophone canadian) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) quoted so you won't be able to take this back i don't know what makes you think that this is a feasible plan I don't. I've served military time. I've had bombs rained down on me. And I live surrounded by people who want me dead because I am a Jew and Israeli. These are the same people who will use human shields so that they are the last ones standing. Another thing I've seen with my own eyes. So yes. In a realistic setting, you either do nothing and die or kill everyone and live. Unfortunately, it's that black and white. That is the world my country lives in. We are told that we are to accept the former. EDIT: And next time, quote the entire paragraph instead of half of it. Debate like a proper intellectual. Edited November 14, 2015 by Jim Moriarty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 We have a lot of french members here. (Even if I speak french, I am a francophone canadian) I thought so. Damn...I'm really worried. I hope they are a okay. I hope their loved ones are okay. They must so scared right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 So yes. In a realistic setting, you either do nothing and die or kill everyone and live. Unfortunately, it's that black and white. That is the world my country lives in. We are told that we are to accept the former. in a realistic setting there's no way to kill a billion people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 okay what happened the last time an industrialized western nation went to war over a terrorist attack this is a simple question which you declined to answer because either you're too stupid to know or you're too angry to acquiesce that the answer implodes your warmongering stance so let me answer it for you it ended in the creation of the state that is responsible for these attacks It is possible that we can do it right this time around by checking our errors from the past and doing differently. After all, we saved South Korea from being fully absorbed by communism, though the other war failed miserably. I can argue that this only happened because there was a war and we left them to their devices after that, which left space for radicals to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 in a realistic setting there's no way to kill a billion people Morally or physically? You might want to be clear on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I'm more curious as to what dondon can suggest to help the case. If he advocates for pacifism and tolerance for terrorists, I'm going to facepalm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 It is possible that we can do it right this time around by checking our errors from the past and doing differently. After all, we saved South Korea from being fully absorbed by communism, though the other war failed miserably. I can argue that this only happened because there was a war and we left them to their devices after that, which left space for radicals to grow. Not as long as we get a good chunk of our populace against their people and promote xenophobia in our country. You honestly think going to war will stop it? No, it'll further the cycle. Let's not go into how, from a social standpoint, it'll paint those minorities living in other countries - who have no attachment otherwise - as a part of "them." It becomes an "us vs them" mentality, and in general you're wrecking a country due to the actions of a few and fucking up their lives. This gives them more and more fodder to work with against us. We didn't try to correct an injustice in Iraq or Afghanistan or anything. If we did, we did a poor job at it, given the number of civilians involved in the war. This happens in every war, but painting their religion and their people in a negative light only did more damage to them, given that this whole fucking "kill the Muslims" was all but said and became a rallying cry for war. It's a really fucked up system and it's perpetuated more violence. I'm more curious as to what dondon can suggest to help the case. If he advocates for pacifism and tolerance for terrorists, I'm going to facepalm.And guess what? I'm basically agreeing with him here, but I'm advocating for pacifism and advocating media-wide tolerance. I'm also not going to advocate taking this lying down, but "tolerance" and "understanding" are two completely different things in this context. You wanna take this at face value and go and eye for an eye? Go for it, and see how much that helps. You wanna examine the exact reasons why this happened and go correct those while punishing the perpetrators? Do that, instead of trying to give into what the warmongering media and government seem to want you to do. I know someone living in France now and the entire media is painting this as shit like "this is what we get for the mosque-isation of France." The terrorists themselves are not the only ones at fault here. Having grown up in a Muslim family in the states I can tell you that it depresses me how shit like this happens constantly when most Muslims I've met are basically no different from any other person I know. But as it stands, the followers of the religion are being used as a target for war. Truth be told, most people are only culturally religious anyway, from my understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Morally or physically? You might want to be clear on this one. both? i don't need to be clear on this one. no one sane wants to kill a billion people and there's no physical way to do so. It is possible that we can do it right this time around by checking our errors from the past and doing differently. After all, we saved South Korea from being fully absorbed by communism, though the other war failed miserably. south korea is one success (although its designation of success is somewhat questionable when the result of the creation of south korea was an even more reactionary and backwards north korea) in a litany of foreign intervention disasters in the 20th and 21st centuries: cuba, somalia, iran, nicaragua, afghanistan, iraq (twice!), and vietnam, among others. if the US weren't so focused on creating "democracies" with the illusion that they're creating better societies in societies that aren't ready for such a system in the first place, then it wouldn't create more problems than it solves. part of the solution (in my opinion) to the current conflict involves encouraging the formation of more stable and less extremist governments in the region. the dismantling of a stable regime in iraq is what's responsible for the rise of the IS in the first place. i don't get why the US is wasting so much time trying to oust assad in syria when the bigger problem in that region is the IS. i'm actually willing to bet that ousting assad is going to worsen the extremism problem in that portion of the middle east rather than to hep it. the US is also obligated to restrict the support that it can give to kurdistan because the kurds want to secede from turkey, even though they have proven to be effective at conducting ground combat against the IS. and yeah, sure, i'm all for assassinating al-baghdadi and other similar figures within IS, but that won't solve the problem unless people can be placated by stability. Edited November 14, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 i would edit this into my previous post but i'm having difficulty copying and pasting quote boxes I've served military time. I've had bombs rained down on me. And I live surrounded by people who want me dead because I am a Jew and Israeli. dude you're a fucking canadian you live surrounded by people who want you dead because you made that choice EDIT: And next time, quote the entire paragraph instead of half of it. Debate like a proper intellectual. hahaha look at life criticizing me for not debating like a proper intellectual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Lord Raven, this is not a war on muslims or their religion, it is a war against intolerant muslim terrorists who preach a radical abominable doctrine (aka their derranged view on islam). Yes, the common person can't really make a difference because both wear turbans or something, and intolerant politicians worsen the situation, but in no way does it mean a war against IS is comparable to a war against muslims and islam, reactionaries be damned. My defense for an aggressive reaction comes from this view: If someone appeals to aggression and won't desist, the only choice left is to defend yourself with another aggression or succumb. Pacifism lives short of its ideals because the other side is not willing to play by its rules. I'm a pacific person, but I realize the only way to stop an aggression is by reacting on proportion, even if it is just to neutralize the other side. You wanna examine the exact reasons why this happened and go correct those while punishing the perpetrators? I agree with this part of your post, though. Seems reasonable, in order to evade more heads emerging from the hydra's neck. But regardless action must be taken, and the only way to punish the perpetrators is through retribuition. How do you expect to do that while advocating for a pacifist policy with regards to IS? I also agree with dondon's most recent post. But how are we achieving stability if not through military intervention? I can only see this happen through a neutralization of the IS. However I do acknowledge authorities need to think about what made the previous wars fail in the first place, before making the situation worse. I just think it is illogical to argue that, since previous wars failed, we shouldn't make a move (not what you're saying, alright). We can check what made the previous wars fail and do differently. Edited November 14, 2015 by Rapier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Dondon, look I agree with you about violence not being the anwser. But try to calm down. To achieve a peaceful solution, we musn't be violent as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I also agree with dondon's most recent post. But how are we achieving stability if not through military intervention? I can only see this happen through a neutralization of the IS. However I do acknowledge authorities need to think about what made the previous wars fail in the first place, before making the situation worse. i agree, the IS isn't going down without a fight. however, i think that we've historically invested too much money into fighting and not in the creation of institutions that help to prevent extremism from taking hold in the first place. the worst thing that france can do right now is to charge into the middle east, guns blazing, and wipe the IS out without a plan for what to do about the people there who are not ideologically extreme and are otherwise mostly satisfied under IS rule. (incidentally that's almost exactly what the US did in iraq, and we created a worse problem, wasted tons of money, and lost the goodwill of the rest of the world.) Edited November 14, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 i'd like to remind people to please watch tempers here yes, this is a shitty situation in a whole lot of ways, but keep things civil or take it off-site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Lord Raven, this is not a war on muslims or their religion, it is a war against intolerant muslim terrorists who preach a radical abominable doctrine (aka their derranged view on islam). Yes, the common person can't really make a difference because both wear turbans or something, and intolerant politicians worsen the situation, but in no way does it mean a war against IS is comparable to a war against muslims and islam, reactionaries be damned.Maybe from your viewpoint. Ask many Americans around and they will take it that far. Consult the media and they will imply the opposite. You're too concerned with what it should be. You're not worrying about what it's portrayed as and what it could end up being. My defense for an aggressive reaction comes from this view: If someone appeals to aggression and won't desist, the only choice left is to defend yourself with another aggression or succumb. Pacifism lives short of its ideals because the other side is not willing to play by its rules. I'm a pacific person, but I realize the only way to stop an aggression is by reacting on proportion, even if it is just to neutralize the other side.We already did a shitty job defending ourselves given that this just happened. I'm still not suggesting we take this lying down, but if there's going to be aggressive action, then let's not use it as a tool to perpetuate hatred and further use that tool to march in. That's what happened with Iraq/Afghanistan whether you want to believe it or not. These terrorist "jokes" I received growing up were definitely not just jokes. I agree with this part of your post, though. Seems reasonable, in order to evade more heads emerging from the hydra's neck. But regardless action must be taken, and the only way to punish the perpetrators is through retribuition. How do you expect to do that while advocating for a pacifist policy with regards to IS? I also agree with dondon's most recent post. But how are we achieving stability if not through military intervention? I can only see this happen through a neutralization of the IS. However I do acknowledge authorities need to think about what made the previous wars fail in the first place, before making the situation worse. I just think it is illogical to argue that, since previous wars failed, we shouldn't make a move (not what you're saying, alright). We can check what made the previous wars fail and do differently. Retribution is petty in and of itself. However, nobody is advocating "just use words and pacifism" but I would like that to happen. It's "if you're gonna take action, don't fuck up." And given the state of things I highly doubt they'll learn much from past mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze The Great Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 This is simply horrifying. 140+ have been confirmed dead, Regardless of what you think our response as an international community ought to be, I think we can all agree that it's time to wake up and take action. Terrorist acts like this are happening too much, spiraling out of control. While I don't claim to know the best solution, I can confidently say that what we are doing now is not that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlordsd Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Jesus Christ.... It was at an Eagles of Death Metal concert... I was listening to that band on my ipod earlier today.... This is crazy. It's the third terrorist attack in the same city (counting the foiled train one). I mean.... what... Oh, and the death toll is up to 158. A direct quote from a french official said to expect the number to continue to rise. In related news, ISIS also issued a video threatening to cause a "bloodbath" in Russia. Edited November 14, 2015 by dragonlordsd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Masters Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 In related news, ISIS also issued a video threatening to cause a "bloodbath" in Russia. I can't belive how desperate ISIS is to get a war going. They are so asking for it, it seems almost ridiculous. What do they win with this? What goes through their minds to actively seek for a war that will most likely end with a total failure on their part? I just... don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClevelandSteve Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I'm personally worried about the backlash where I live. I live in a right-wing area of Minnesota (my congresswoman was literally Michelle Bachmann until she resigned this year) but the city that I live in has a decent-sized Muslim minority that includes several co-workers that I get along well with. By all means, send troops to fight them, but making it a fight between Muslims and "The West" is a recipe for failure. Instead of going into Iraq and Syria and bombing and genociding everybody, we should have our troops team up with other nations in the area. Remember that ISIS has killed far more Muslims than it has westerners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlordsd Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I can't belive how desperate ISIS is to get a war going. They are so asking for it, it seems almost ridiculous. What do they win with this? What goes through their minds to actively seek for a war that will most likely end with a total failure on their part? I just... don't get it. Just to clarify, ISIS is not behind this attack. According to new reports, ISIS has posted statements praising the shooters' actions, but intelligence officials are certain they were not responsible. It's still unclear which group organized them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VROOOOM Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 This is horrifying and it keeps getting worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VROOOOM Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Just to clarify, ISIS is not behind this attack. According to new reports, ISIS has posted statements praising the shooters' actions, but intelligence officials are certain they were not responsible. It's still unclear which group organized them. Didn't one of them claim to be with ISIS? Not calling you wrong, I'm just hearing conflicting arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlordsd Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Didn't one of them claim to be with ISIS? Not calling you wrong, I'm just hearing conflicting arguments. It's possible. I haven't seen that. I don't think we'll know clearly until things calm down. Well, here's a little hope in the dark: http://www.people.com/article/parisians-use-hashtag-porte-ouverte-help-people-get-to-safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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