13/11 Attacks on Paris

[Rehab]

Running with the likely assumption the attack was indeed by ISIS, it can be interpreted as a "take us THIS seriously" display of strength, but given their circumstances it actually might also be a sign of some weakness. They've lost territory and Jihad John recently, so they might not actually be doing so hot on the ground right now. I wouldn't blame somebody for thinking otherwise after an attack this large, though.

For the moment I'll spare everyone the full spiel about how insane I find the idea of backing Assad in a PR sense, given how much of the Arab and Islamic spheres loathe him, and morally, given how much of this is easily his fault, unimaginable magnitude of blood directly on his hands, et cetera. I'd like to say this, though: whatever can be said of other strongmen, most of them didn't end up directly responsible for blowing their countries apart at the seams with relatively little outside help. Assad doesn't even qualify as a strongman anymore, really, he's a mid-high tier warlord just kinda holding onto some territory in a country that doesn't even really exist as it was any more. If he couldn't hold it together before, and if he certainly couldn't repair it once it came apart, why would he be able now?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Rehab

[Luxian]

First of all, I'm glad that you are safe, I was worried about our french members, since there a lot of them here.

And I sincerely hope things will get better for you all.

Second, you said exactly what I wanted to say. That right now blindly attacking the Islam is very bad idea.

Eagerly jumping into a violent solution, without thinking of other possibilities will only cause more deaths on both sides.

People are angry now, but they gotta think things through.

Thanks. I do hope too. It has been a year and a half I'm living a bit far from Paris so I think I'll be safe for a moment, but who knows where they will strike next... And I intended to go back to Paris to spend my winter holidays with my acquitances... But who knows when other terrorists might pop up in the train or at the train station ? And it hurts me not to know people who are dear to me are in danger.

[Naughx]

The question isn't if they'll strike again, but when.

Most western nations have to deal with it now.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Naughx

[dragonlordsd]

The question isn't if they'll strike again, but when.

Most western nations have to deal with it now.

True. It's not just the US anymore. I imagine that ISIS has shifted their propaganda to keep things fresh. I mean (in actual seriousness), people eventually get tired of blaming the same target for two decades with no real progress. In order to keep attracting followers, they'll want to fuel new hatreds.

[InsaneNoire]

This is just so saddening and I will never understand why stuff like this happens. Terrorists are scum to the core.

[dondon151]

This must be related to the Russia airplane case. There's no way ISIS could be able to shoot down an airplane flying at high attitude with their rocket and the route of the airplane is far away from ISIS territory.

the suspicion is not that IS shot down the russian airplane, but that someone snuck a bomb aboard.

[blah the Prussian]

True. It's not just the US anymore. I imagine that ISIS has shifted their propaganda to keep things fresh. I mean (in actual seriousness), people eventually get tired of blaming the same target for two decades with no real progress. In order to keep attracting followers, they'll want to fuel new hatreds.

It hasn't been the US for a while. ISIS has mostly been targeting the Middle East and Europe.

First of all, I'm glad that you are safe, I was worried about our french members, since there a lot of them here.

And I sincerely hope things will get better for you all.

Second, you said exactly what I wanted to say. That right now blindly attacking the Islam is very bad idea.

Eagerly jumping into a violent solution, without thinking of other possibilities will only cause more deaths on both sides.

People are angry now, but they gotta think things through.

I'll ask you again, then? What is this oh so perfect solution? Seriously, you can't just condemn a solution that has worked for most of history and not provide an alternative.

[Leif]

Damn, 100 deaths is just too much.

Life is something that shouldn't be treated so carelessly.

That being said, violence only begets more violence. Is killing them off really the only alternative?

There has to be a peaceful solution.

Absolutely not. These people are demons. As Jim says in the quote below, they will kill people for not submitting to their beliefs. That's barbaric, plain and simple. There is no forgiving what they did.

Do you go to restaurants? Sports games? Concerts?

These are people who want you dead for the sole reason of you being different. And you want to fucking equate them to human beings? You think that they can be talked to? To be reasoned with? They would sooner shoot you in the head than be listened to.

And it's all because you're different even though you've never done anything wrong to them.

EDIT: looks like I came to this topic a tad late.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Leif

[Irysa]

Yannis Koutsomitis ‏@YanniKouts

#Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289

If this is true then things regarding the whole migrant debacle in Europe are going to get really shaken up in the next few weeks.

[Dreamer]

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289

If this is true then things regarding the whole migrant debacle in Europe are going to get really shaken up in the next few weeks.

I really hope that it is not true, that it's just a fake passport. If i'm correct they are going to build an emergency refugee centrum close to were I live. It is already a very sensitive topic, but stuff like that will only make it worse.

Even my own class is divited by this. And we are just teenagers. God, I hate this

[Rapier]

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289

If this is true then things regarding the whole migrant debacle in Europe are going to get really shaken up in the next few weeks.

Can't say I don't hope it does. We need to recognize reality as it is and see the evident threat that is leaving borders wide open for strangers to barge in. I'm tired of idealistic wishful thinking (and, on the other extreme, radical opinions about prohibiting strangers outright). Better checks and border control are imperative.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Rapier

[Tryhard]

My sister lived in Tunisia for many years, and is a Muslim now living in France. Let's just say that despite it being a first world democracy, the situation is currently volatile there.

[Magical CC]

So are there updates? How about the hostages?

[ZoesMad]

Poland seems to be the first country announcing that it will not take refugees now.

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/271757-polska-musi-zachowac-pelna-kontrole-nad-swoimi-granicami-nad-polityka-azylowa-i-migracyjna

I have a feeling many more will come...

Edit: @Magical CC I believe all the hostages in the Bataclan were freed last night by French special forces.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Lord Gaius

[Corrine]

Avoid hearsay please, that would probably anger a lot of us.

[blah the Prussian]

Huh. I would think Zeman in the Czech Republic would beat the Poles to it.

[Topazd]

Tighter immigration control is by itself fine and quite understandable, but the really scary scenario is that this will provide fuel for further segregation for the Muslim populations already within Europe; an environment where Muslim youths grow up with a pervasive sense that the society doesn't see them as welcome is just about the worst thing that could happen, as far as the prospect of radicalization is concerned.

[Life]

I'm pissed off.

This is the kind of shit Israel deals with on a daily basis. Countries are jumping to France's support but we're never allowed to retaliate due to "using excessive force" (which is a bullshit way of saying "why don't you all just let yourselves be killed already").

As I've said, this is horrible and unforgivable. But it was also a long time coming and shouldn't be a surprise.

[Water Mage]

I'll ask you again, then? What is this oh so perfect solution? Seriously, you can't just condemn a solution that has worked for most of history and not provide an alternative.

I never claimed to know what the solution is, I just said a less violent one must exist. And you can't really claim that the other solution it worked, it never did.

Also, read what Luxian said, it's painfully obvious that Hollande is trying to play hero and being an idiot about it.

Do you honestly think that attacking now, without waiting for the country to recover from schock, and without thinking about the long-term consequences is a good idea?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Water Mage

[blah the Prussian]

I never claimed to know what the solution is, I just said a less violent one must exist. And you can't really claim that the other solution it worked, it never did.

Also, read what Luxian said, it's painfully obvious that Hollande is trying to play hero and being an idiot about it.

Do you honestly think that attacking now, without waiting for the country to recover from schock, and without thinking about the long-term consequences is a good idea?

It never worked, huh? What about in Germany and Japan, both of which I specifically mentioned? Seriously, if there is only one solution, you kind of have to take that solution. And no, I am not advocating rushing in blindly, I am advocating coming up with a strategy, executing that strategy, and beating ISIS. I've already said all of this. I would also like to know your reasoning behind the idiotic notion that killing a killer makes you just like them.

[dragonlordsd]

I'll ask you again, then? What is this oh so perfect solution? Seriously, you can't just condemn a solution that has worked for most of history and not provide an alternative.

Like most world problems, I think if there was an easy solution, someone would be smart enough to take it.

The problem, which ISIS so clearly highlights, is discontentment and dissatisfaction, both of which are incredibly difficult to eliminate.

Bad things happened to these people. But if they admit to themselves that it's not actually anyone's fault, then they have to accept that there's nothing they can do about it. And most people can't allow themselves to believe that. They'll cling to the hope that if they can just kill this one group of people, if they can just get more power, somehow it'll fix everything.

After all, which would you rather be told? That your home got blown up because "bad things happen" or because it's "western blasphemers who intend to destroy us?"

I don't know if this problem can be "solved." As soon as you fix one thing, someone will find another thing to inspire them. If Islam reforms, they'll find a new excuse to kill people.

[Water Mage]

It never worked, huh? What about in Germany and Japan, both of which I specifically mentioned? Seriously, if there is only one solution, you kind of have to take that solution. And no, I am not advocating rushing in blindly, I am advocating coming up with a strategy, executing that strategy, and beating ISIS. I've already said all of this. I would also like to know your reasoning behind the idiotic notion that killing a killer makes you just like them.

If it really worked what happened in Paris wouldn't well...happened. And if you got only one solution, and you don't like it, you don't have to take it, you make another.

And yes, killing a killer makes you a killer, after all, if the killer has no right to take a life, you don't either, no mather how good the reason is.

And as they say, the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Water Mage

[Naughx]

And yes, killing a killer makes you a killer, after all, if the killer has no right to take a life, you don't either, no mather how good the reason is.

And as they say, the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

Well self-defense or protecting someone close from a direct threat is justifiable.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Naughx

[blah the Prussian]

If it really worked what happened in Paris wouldn't well...happened. And if you got only one solution, and you don't like it, you don't have to take it, you make another.

And yes, killing a killer makes you a killer, after all, if the killer has no right to take a life, you don't either, no mather how good the reason is.

And as they say, the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

For rapprochement to begin, first the bad guy needs to be defeated. Thus, your example doesn't apply. If you want to make another option, make one. Let us know when you're done. We, meanwhile, will be solving the problem. Why do I have no right to take a life, regardless of the reason? If someone will blow up the world if I don't kill him first, do I have a right to take his life?

[Yojinbo]

How to do that: The US, EU, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Russia need to get on the same page regarding who to prop up in the region. I personally would recommend convincing Assad and the rebels to work together against ISIS. Failing that, though, we should support Assad over the rebels, because Assad is the strongest force in the region. He should be seen as the Stalin to Bagdadi's Hitler. The US needs to accept Russian dominance in Syria to beat ISIS, much like we accepted Russian dominance in Eastern Europe to beat the Nazis. Now, if Assad is toppled, we should restore the Syrian monarchy under the House of Hashemite. I'm not just saying this because I'm a monarchist; a monarchy provides a symbol against Islamic extremism that no politician can. Why do you think ISIS has yet to penetrate Jordan while it is tearing apart Iraq and Syria?

A few notes here:

1.) Chances that an agreement between the key players is going to be reached is exactly 0%. ISIL is for the most part a product of KSA and other gulf monarchies like Qatar. Even if the already absurdly unlikely scenario occurs that an agreement between the USA / its european subordinates and Russia can be achieved there is no way that KSA will stop supporting their brothers in faith.

There is no way to find a solution to the whole thing without hurting anybody's feelings. There's a huge clash of interests between NATO-Turkey [want to get rid of Assad and exterminate the kurds] and the gulf monarchies led by KSA [want to get rid of Assad, diminish Iran's influence and install a sunna, islamofascist regime] on the one side and Iran and Russia on the other side. The longer this conflict continues the more obvious it becomes that the USA and their allies are on the losing side against Russia and Iran who are more successful in military terms. And I doubt that this time the USA will be able to rewrite the history books in their favor like they did after WWII.

2.) Who are these "rebels" that people keep talking about in Syria and Iraq? Just because they're neither on Assad's nor on ISIL's side doesn't mean they're any less terrorist organizations than, say, Al-Nursa.

3.) I don't see how a monarchy would be best solution. Syria was doing relatively fine under Assad, terrorism was a non-issue and freedom of religion was granted, at least officially. Womens rights, education, medical care were also on a pretty high standard. I think the better solution would be to abolish the arbitrary borders between Iraq and Syria and rearrange the territories based on religion/ethnicies -> a mostly shia southern Iraq, a sunna middle Iraq/eastern Syria, a free kurdistan in the north of Iraq/Syria territories and a multi-cultural western Syria under Assad's rule.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Yojinbo