Realm of Mirrors - Game Over

[Refa]

Shin is really hard to read as always.

Shin is hard for me to read.

I can't read Shin for shit and it's not a playstyle thing.

or are Shin who is very hard to read!

Thanks Shin.

[Refa]

Izhu was feeling down in his 4th post, where he responded to SB, and this permeates pretty much the rest of his posts. Do you think that mafia would have done that? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like his tone would be different if he was mafia

This wasn't addressed to me but I'm answering it anyways. It makes him more likely to be town, but isn't like...strong enough to invalidate the slot from being scum.

Junk, what is your opinion on Ocean?

GP, Boron/Cam weren't driven. Cam just has a redirecting role and so does SB. This might be a townslip because I don't see how you wouldn't know this if you were scum (could be faked but it seems like a really nonsensical thing to fake).

Shin, if you always misread me, shouldn't you still be gunning for my lynch? Like, let's say I'm townie as fuck as all alignments. FYPOV, you'd be better able to trust your opinion on Quote over me.

Agree w/Elieson. As long as he makes a decently sized post, it'll be pretty easy to figure out his alignment lol.

Freyja's reads post is good, no complaints. Mayor isn't automatically town but is more likely to be town in a 13P game.

[Shin]

Paperblade's Shin case on looks good at a glance. Shin, what's your opinion on Refa right now?

I feel like Refa's contributing way more to the game than Via. It might be because nobody's on his case, but he's making an active effort to read everyone. This might be my eternal town read on Refa, but from how he's posted, he'd be leaning town, even with Via as context. I'm starting to have a horrible feeling that Via begging to live wasn't alignment indicative, Refa's behaviour's totally different.

In short, leaning more town now. Yeah, I kinda lost my biggest read, which kinda only leaves me with Junko. Eli's not really here and Paper's case on me actually makes sense, I'd totally sheep it. Nah, I mean it. Whilst I don't think I'm scum, I can totally dig where it's coming from, with a town perspective.

[Shin]

I don't really have much to say about Zero or Boron. They're kinda in the same ballpark as Eli, except they haven't actually done anything that makes me feel either way. I tell a lie, Boron's interactions with GP looks like town infighting and a scum mayor would be rage biscuits.

Frey's intro post was pretty swag and I still feel that Coby may have been lost town.

In short, other than Junko I have almost nothing! I guess one of my nulls might be scum, but again I don't really see any of them as particularly scummy. Maybe I should SELF VOTE.

[Shin]

Thanks Shin.

That post was beautiful.

Imma read Ocean and SB at some point. This game is rage.

[Junk]

now you know what it feels like shin for me in every game with like one read

@shin but it would've only taken two votes to lynch via? My problem isn't the fact that you didn't let via get lynched, the problem is you didn't even mention it when it was still a possibility. Feel like we're going to run this into the ground at this point though.

@SB, well i'll admit i couldn't really give any specifics since i forgot the exact games but as town i feel GP tends to occasionally come up with funny reasons to justify her cases and while i can't remember the specifics i have memories of GP getting into arguments over reasons because they tend to be silly. The most I can remember is that i THINK in cyor 2 GP and eury got into an arguments over something really small and GP was town in that game. The fact that i can't really remember exact moments is why i have her as slight town.

@refa while as i said before i remarked on ocean being passive which did feel a little off to me. I did forget to realize until just now that this might be a playstyle thing though. This feeling later goes away when they start to push via. Regarding their case on via it made sense but i didn't agree with it since via uses self meta as both alignments. Actually looking back i guess i can see what people are saying about their unvote being bad. I thought it was bad at first until i remembered i was at L-1 when they unvoted. I guess I did forget mafia 101 and realize that if someone were to hammer me right then they would probably be lynched on the spot D2. The same time though i can see ocean's POV since well i thought the same at first. I just noticed that they did not place down their vote on via because they thought it would be pointless and that bothers me because if they did it would become via: 5 and clarinets :6, so just one more vote could have resulted in a lynch of your scumread. (This might make me rethink my part about shin not encouraging via lynch since at that point yeah, i guess there really wasn't anything you could do, lemme go check, okay no shin's post came before ocean's) Actually just looking back at the ocean's new post i said the feeling of their passiveness went away but now am feeling it just came back. Specifically the top half where they talk about me and host errors (this is post ##385 by the way).

Guess what i think about ocean at this point is null leaning scummy for the via stuff. I've never played with ocean before so can't decide if their passiveness is scummy or a playstyle thing.

[Paperblade]

Via begs to live moreso as town because she's (almost?) never been lynched as town

[solrocknroll]

I feel that as a whole, there are quite a few players that we have no real understanding of. Of course, it's due to real life scenarios, which is fine, but it makes reading that much harder.

[Oceanbourne]

see the last time I posted I had just posted after Paper's Watcher claim incriminating SB and then I went to go do new year's eve stuff. at that point I was probably going to go junko > refa, wanted to see the SB response first though. I've just got back with time to make another post but I don't make a vote if I feel I haven't a) gotten out all my arguments or b) got up-to-date with my info sooo

I would say that based on how Junko has acted thus far, that they are town. I can sort of tell based on how they seemed rather quick to change votes in the first round, which has been mentioned before, but also that they never acted like scum when they were under fire in the first day before everyone changed their votes to Clarinets.

Refa acts completely different to Via. That's certain. But Via tended to beg people not to lynch them. I'm not really understanding why. Granted, it never turned into a OMGUS, but it certainly looked vaguely suspicious. It could just have easily been desperation or inexperience, but it also could have been a scum begging against lynch. I don't think Refa has too many tells either way, but because she shares a role with Via, I'll put her as looking slightly scummy right now.

Oceanborne has the strongest scum vibe for me. He tends to not provide very good reasoning and is prone to jumping on a bandwagon at the last second. He has posted regularly, but hasn't justified really anything. He hasn't even voted for this round yet, implying that he could just be waiting to find an easy lynch target. Either way, I don't feel anything but scummy vibes from him.

i haven't quoted the whole thing but the reads post as a whole was more like a longer version of Zero's catchup post which was not that great (Freyjadour's is better but there's still some things here that don't quite make sense)

you think junko switching votes around a lot is townie? nothing about their day 1 play troubled you even in the slightest? I guess I can't ask you for an opinion on every little thing, but I am wondering how you viewed his interactions early day 1 with via and his voteswitch on day 2 to your slot

Refa slot is scummy because of via's behavior. okay, but what about Refa himself? I'm not sure what you mean by 'not too many tells' are you saying that you have no idea how to read them or what

the only people I've voted are cam / via / junko. the first two were far from bandwagoning and the last one was 1 1/2 hours from deadline. if my post voting for via wasn't justification then I guess none of mine are. reasons for not voting are detailed in the beginning of this post

you seem to have different criteria for townreading other people in the game, for example GP is autotown because mayor, yet you don't say anything about Paper's claim or what you think about SB's explanation for Paper's results. you must have read up to date since you're aware of Paper's vote on Shin, yet it feels like you missed out on quite a bit in doing so

[Oceanbourne]

None of my reads are based solely off of players' metas except Elieson (because he hasn't had any content to analyze). Shin is null because there's reason for him to be scum. Explain why my Elieson and Boron reads are lackluster (as in, why I should elaborate more on them). I don't get what your last point is.

There is literally always scum on a D1 mislynch 100% of the time. I am the most confident in that, fite me IRL.

I'm not getting anything out of your reads but the fact that you're not voting is bad and scum and also not town.

I never mentioned 'solely,' just that you included meta as a part of the read. you say that Shin has reason to be scum and that's why he's null, but in the reads post you say "shin pushed people and I'm sure that was good" (unless you're talking about SB talking about the way Shin is pushing people, in that case that just means more reading for me ugh) and "I like his conviction" which are both indicating you think Shin is acting toownie

when I said they were lackluster I meant like... less concrete reasoning than the things you were talking about with Shin. with his read you referenced his convictions and stuff that SB said but with Elie you said "oh yeah he's just behaving like he was last game" and "if he was scum he'd be trying harder not to get lynched." obviously you can't elaborate more on Elie with his lack of content but when I first addressed you about this, there seems to be no reason for Shin to be ranked below Elie

my last point was supposed to be the fact that he was hardly getting any attention day 1, and people sympathized with some of his posts cause he talked about bad weather in the area where he lived giving him an excuse for almost no content. that behavior is pretty non-alignment indicative, so how can you get that Elie would be trying harder to not get lynched if he was scum if he doesn't have to try at all? I can understand if he was under some fire and him just shrugging it off means he looks town to you and him taking things more personal means he might read scum but there was no fire to speak of

for Boron iirc you just said "Boron is Boron" and left it at that, and said something about "she might've been the n1 kill!" but I'm pretty sure that was it. again, you talked about Shin in more concrete terms

[Oceanbourne]

I actually have no idea how to take the SB scenario and to be honest I was reading his role from the mafiascum wiki and as someone had said earlier it was similar but apparently it's not the role the wiki says? because then there's no reason that I was supposed to be the intended target. can someone actually explain what his role is supposed to do / link me to the explanation

at least I can say with a pretty good degree of confidence I'm townreading Shin so I'm not gonna join the 6 other "idk about Shin" reads

##vote Junko

yeah basically I didn't like #363 and I don't need to talk about his next case on Shin that Shin himself already took care of

@oceanbourne, yes because it makes me look like a victim therefore making the people who voted me even worse.

@junko, ok, so Shin puts you as the victim and makes via/paper/elie look worse. since he was voting via at the time, wasn't that congruent with his intentions? I guess victimizing might be some extreme wording but...

(yeah I can see where people are coming from when they call me passive I guess I typically am this way rip)

[SB.]

Posting is hard.

Shin is really hard to read as always. He jokes around and plays in a way where you can't tell what his alignment could possibly be. I'll put him under undetermined. I don't really see Shin as either yet.

How do you know this?

Frejya's post is mostly okay except I feel like they kind of exaggerate some things (mostly calling Ocean's bandwagoning a trend when they did it once, and also with Shin being unreadable to a lesser extent). The rest of the post feels fine though.

I guess Junko's meta explanation makes sense, but idr how scum!GP plays in order to compare them.

Ocean's content catchup is mostly /fine/ (it reads apathetic to me but idk how to interpret that) but I find it kind of weird that for all the talking about me he does he never mentions me? Like, he wanted to see my response apparently but I don't think he mentioned a read on me and chewed out someone else for doing the same thing which I dislike.

[solrocknroll]

i haven't quoted the whole thing but the reads post as a whole was more like a longer version of Zero's catchup post which was not that great (Freyjadour's is better but there's still some things here that don't quite make sense)

you think junko switching votes around a lot is townie? nothing about their day 1 play troubled you even in the slightest? I guess I can't ask you for an opinion on every little thing, but I am wondering how you viewed his interactions early day 1 with via and his voteswitch on day 2 to your slot

Refa slot is scummy because of via's behavior. okay, but what about Refa himself? I'm not sure what you mean by 'not too many tells' are you saying that you have no idea how to read them or what

the only people I've voted are cam / via / junko. the first two were far from bandwagoning and the last one was 1 1/2 hours from deadline. if my post voting for via wasn't justification then I guess none of mine are. reasons for not voting are detailed in the beginning of this post

you seem to have different criteria for townreading other people in the game, for example GP is autotown because mayor, yet you don't say anything about Paper's claim or what you think about SB's explanation for Paper's results. you must have read up to date since you're aware of Paper's vote on Shin, yet it feels like you missed out on quite a bit in doing so

I admit that I might not have every picture, but yes, I went back and read the entire topic. I totally admit that I could have missed something, so I could be wrong.

Junko's votes seemed to go after people either inactive (Coby) or conflicting (Via). I wouldn't call them a town lock or anything, but their activities don't seem to be too scummy. I don't see scum being obsessed with lynch targets unless it was themselves. Since they changed so much, they likely wanted to go after anyone who could possibly even be scum.

Which brings me to Via. Via seemed to take even the possibility of lynching really seriously. I don't see anyone else acting like that at all. Refa is not really similar at all, but I could see them going either way. By hard tells, I did mean that I couldn't read them too well. However, I'm getting a vaguely town-like vibe from how Refa talks and acts. As such, I'm not going to pass judgment, which is why I'm not going to make a real decision either way yet.

I will concede to being wrong. I thought that you had voted for Clarinets. I still don't really feel like Junko was all that suspicious though.

The mayor idea was pure conjecture. I didn't have a very strong idea about what the mayor is. I'll probably wait and see, but as said, it's more likely that the mayor will be Town in a 13-player game. As for the other stuff like Paper's vote, I'll definitely research some more.

[solrocknroll]

How do you know this?

Frejya's post is mostly okay except I feel like they kind of exaggerate some things (mostly calling Ocean's bandwagoning a trend when they did it once, and also with Shin being unreadable to a lesser extent). The rest of the post feels fine though.

I couldn't really know for certain, but from this topic, I haven't found Shin to be either here nor there. Like I said, his joking manner makes it difficult to ascertain any real ideas, but I will also say that some of his claims have indeed been... Off. He has indeed changed opinions just as Paper said. If I was forced to make a decision, I'd lean towards scum.

I did mess up on Ocean, but I still don't think that I'll change my vote. I still feel roughly the same whether there was bandwagoning or not.

[SB.]

oh i literally missed ocean's post on me my bad

my role redirects whoever i target to myself

freyja, if that was such a big part of your vote why are you keeping it anyway? the logic doesn't check out

can't be bothered to read the rest of the post so late, will do it in the morning

[Sunwoo]

Sorry for being offline for most of today, I went out somewhere and then I had to clean my room. Let me see if there's anything I have to respond to.

[Sunwoo]

My motivation is kind of shot, but I'm going to try to get something out anyway.

Zerosabers and Freyjadour are both in the same boat right now. They made a catch-up post with reads, but they don't really give a lot of explanation for those reads. Freyjadour admittedly elaborated on his Junko read, but I disagree highly with his scum-vote logic.

Junko's votes seemed to go after people either inactive (Coby) or conflicting (Via). I wouldn't call them a town lock or anything, but their activities don't seem to be too scummy. I don't see scum being obsessed with lynch targets unless it was themselves. Since they changed so much, they likely wanted to go after anyone who could possibly even be scum.

[Sunwoo]

… And it happened again. Fuck this site. Just fuck it. I'm not even going to type out the rest of it. I'm out.

[Sunwoo]

Ugh, let's just make this VERY brief.

Freyjadour: Explain why scum would only be obsessed with lynch targets if self. Changing votes so much isn't necessarily townie. Can show lack of commitment, fickle reads, or trying to get on any possible wagon/mislynch. Junko's Quote vote is ??? and feels reactionary. Coby's vote is again reactionary and don't see what he was hoping to accomplish when feelings on Shin were same.

Elieson's lack of doing anything is bothering me. I know he's busy but he was around during D1 deadline and didn't even pretend to give content. He couldn't remember why he'd voted Junko either, that looks bad. Being busy is not an exemption to being scum and I feel as town he would've put in more effort.

I feel like I'm tunneling on GP. I don't necessarily feel good about her but I can't help but wonder if it's play style differences, so I am going to try to reread her at some point to look for scum intent. Junko read is unchanged. I have difficulty reading Shin, but am leaning towards not-scum. Oceanbourne read is unchanged.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

Feels like he is avoiding thread. I do think he is busy, but that he could also be using it as an excuse to not show up. Lack of effort, feel like he would be trying harder if he were town.

[solrocknroll]

freyja, if that was such a big part of your vote why are you keeping it anyway? the logic doesn't check out

can't be bothered to read the rest of the post so late, will do it in the morning

I don't want to flip-flop endlessly about people to vote for. I am changing my vote though to Elie due to a general lack of participation and him lurking. I'd like to see him do a little more, but the whole waiting out thing seems suspicious enough for me. I know Sunwoo also wants to lynch Elie, but I find his reasoning sound enough to believe in what he's saying.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

[solrocknroll]

Ugh, let's just make this VERY brief.

Freyjadour: Explain why scum would only be obsessed with lynch targets if self. Changing votes so much isn't necessarily townie. Can show lack of commitment, fickle reads, or trying to get on any possible wagon/mislynch. Junko's Quote vote is ??? and feels reactionary. Coby's vote is again reactionary and don't see what he was hoping to accomplish when feelings on Shin were same

I'm not really understanding reactionary too well, but I'm assuming that it means that they went after people early on with little to no leads? As a whole, I could easily see scum being interested in targets, but I also am of the feeling that they wouldn't care that much as long as it was a town. Junko's votes were certainly premature, but I do see that they might just want to see someone go.

Agh, I'm now starting to doubt my own reading abilities. I think that I might not be too far off the mark though with my original placings. I don't see any reason to really change with too many people for right now. I'd rather see what the rest of day 2 holds first.

[Sunwoo]

Reactionary means that the vote was based on a "knee-jerk" instinct more than an actual belief in the person's scumminess. For example, if you told me that I'd made a vote that was non-committal, and I voted you solely because you annoyed me (and not for saying anything I felt was scummy), that is a reactionary vote. And I consider it scummy because there's no consideration for the scum intent when that vote is made.

Also, even if the target is town it's still possible for scum to be interested in the target. They don't want to make themselves look like the "weak link" on a flipped target, the vote most likely to be scum and the least committed. If scum have a choice between a stronger town player and a weaker town player, or a town player who suspects scum and one who doesn't, who do you think they are going to want to go for? The stronger player, the one who suspects them, the one that will benefit them the most and implicate them the least.

The timing of your Elieson vote is … What made you decide to switch your vote to Elieson?

[solrocknroll]

I agree completely about Elieson's inactivity. It's not exactly wagoning, as you said everything I could want to say and more. I think that he could very much use some more activity in the game. Ocean deconfirmed any real suspicions I had, so I couldn't really vote for him anymore. I honestly think that Elieson is pretty much hiding out away from the game. I know that real life is priority, but if he was mafia, then that gives him a perfect alibi.

I'd also say that Zerosabers is doing that too. They've made like, what, two posts? Izuhark seemed incredibly frustrated, but whether that was from inexperience or something else is yet to be seen.

I'm honestly probably not doing this correctly by conceding with other people's thoughts so much, but ah well.

[Green Poet]

Unable to read or post in detail right now. I will be around for phase end and will be catching up before it.

[Shin]

I'd kinda want to hear a little bit from Eli first. I know I've taken issue with his initial Junko vote, but at this stage of the game I'd prefer to have something more substantial for a read. It's not like he's done anything towny to make up for it, but there's not much to go on.

Frey, I disagree with how Junko's swapping looks like town going after any scum they could find, it reads to me more like scum trying to find anything they can latch on to.