Realm of Mirrors - Game Over

[Green Poet]

I don't understand why Quote was suddenly worse than everyone else present, since in this post you imply that you basically cased them over two posts/statements. How were those statements worse than what anyone else was doing.

At the time, I had only weaker, less precise, D1-level reads, so the Via case didn't have much competition to get my vote. Via's statements looked worse to me than anyone else's, because the only other person who I'd considered possibly scummy was Junko, who I was still going back and forth about.

The biggest problem I have is that you don't really seem to be pushing a case. Between the time when you did suspect Cam and unvoting him, your most notable contribution was arguing semantics with me and even when you voted Quote you made the vote and didn't really push them. Which is what I have a problem with, it felt like you voted them and were being passive with your vote more than trying to push it.

I see. I could have contributed more and pushed Via more, true, if I had taken more time to really look over everything he said later and pick at it.

But I did not, and now Via has subbed out, so I am unable to make up for that. Do you still think that I am avoiding pushing cases, though? I think my recent post is relatively diverse in scumreads, which I'd ask you to take into account if you wish to maintain a case on me.

[SB.]

Junko's Shin read is kind of weak in places but I kind of feel like scum!Junko wouldn't say essentially say "my vote fucking sucks but hear me out" and would just try to justify it better. He could probably have just rolled with the second paragraph for the read and been fine so I feel like it's some kind of weird town roundabout logic that made him look at Shin and realise "oh this is actually valid" with how he wrote it that makes me feel like he's town now. The immediate voteswitch is kind of iffy but with how he phrased the Shin vote I can kinda see it?

Coby's interjection is more worrying for uh... obvious reasons. With how shaky Junko's felt his own reasoning was, how can you sheep it just like that?

I don't like Shin's jump onto Junko at all. The colour post feels like it's tearing into Junko's reasoning to try and make him look bad rather than trying to explain why it's wrong. Only the blue text actually addresses the read itself. Also saying that I've been behind the scenes after I was a major wagon for a lot of day 1 and then talked a lot at phase end is blatantly wrong.

I dislike GP's Junko push based on nightkill spec and reacting to a blatantly horrible vote. It looks like GP has a lot of scumreads at first but after looking at them all they're all kind of weak which is worrying. Need to look back at Day 1 to see if this is a trend. Also,I explained that I was starting to dislike Clarinets a few posts before I switched my vote and wasn't feeling strongly about Junko anymore. I kind of feel like GP is trying to avoid fights because it feels like her written reasons for voting either me or to a lesser extent Paperblade (although she's excusing that with meta) are things she thinks are stronger but she goes with the Junko vote instead which I dislike.

Everyone saying "hey SB and Cam have very similar roles" need to remember that Manix is the same person who hosted EO2, the 16p game with 6 different roleblockers and hates rolespec with a passion. Also, Decoy and Sidekick have completely different functions. Decoy is meant to redirect a kill onto themselves, while Sidekick can't do that and acts more like a Safeguard with preventing roleblocks and stuff on the target.

I have just found out that I am (apparently?) busy today so I don't have time to properly reread Shin and GP's D1s like I'd want to, so I'm keeping my vote where it is for now and I'm gonna get back to it when I have time.

[Shin]

Junko's Shin read is kind of weak in places but I kind of feel like scum!Junko wouldn't say essentially say "my vote fucking sucks but hear me out" and would just try to justify it better. He could probably have just rolled with the second paragraph for the read and been fine so I feel like it's some kind of weird town roundabout logic that made him look at Shin and realise "oh this is actually valid" with how he wrote it that makes me feel like he's town now. The immediate voteswitch is kind of iffy but with how he phrased the Shin vote I can kinda see it?

Coby's interjection is more worrying for uh... obvious reasons. With how shaky Junko's felt his own reasoning was, how can you sheep it just like that?

I don't like Shin's jump onto Junko at all. The colour post feels like it's tearing into Junko's reasoning to try and make him look bad rather than trying to explain why it's wrong. Only the blue text actually addresses the read itself. Also saying that I've been behind the scenes after I was a major wagon for a lot of day 1 and then talked a lot at phase end is blatantly wrong.

Scum aren't necessarily going to post something that's factually incorrect, they'd twist it to suit their needs, which I address in the not-blue things. Perhaps behind the scenes wasn't quite the best way to put it, but you're way less involved than I'd expect you to be, especially if you were a major wagon. Either that or I've taken reading lessons from BBM and Rapier.

SB, despite his uncertainty, he voted me anyway, but swapped at the slightest scent of anything else. It could be that he seriously doubted his read, but even then, the amount of effort he put into it made it look like he was sticking to it anyway.

[Shin]

Everyone saying "hey SB and Cam have very similar roles" need to remember that Manix is the same person who hosted EO2, the 16p game with 6 different roleblockers and hates rolespec with a passion. Also, Decoy and Sidekick have completely different functions. Decoy is meant to redirect a kill onto themselves, while Sidekick can't do that and acts more like a Safeguard with preventing roleblocks and stuff on the target.

To be honest, I'm pretty much ignoring roleclaims entirely. From what I gather, this game's pretty light on the roles, and from what you've said it wouldn't be reliable to speculate. On the flipside, it could also be the complete opposite!

I'm going to be driving for much of this afternoon, but I should be around in the evening. I'm unsure where half the game is, probably busy celebrating KWANZA.

[Zerosabers]

Hello everyone!

Sunwoo - They're my strongest town read at the moment since they seem to be very focused on finding scum.

Oceanbourne - This post is bad. Putting someone at L-1 without telling others you're about to do it is scummy. Basically if Junko ends up town then Oceanbourne is probably scum.

Quote/Refa - Mostly null, I don't know if I should believe the mass self meta from Quote along with the don't lynch me without claiming.

Junko - His prods didn't really seem to lead anywhere, and I'm still sure what he mean by this when later he says worse means null. His vote on Shin was bad but then he auto switches to Coby directly after. It doesn't really feel like he's committed to anything and is bouncing around.

Coby - He was apparently here for day 1 but didn't post anything. His random appearance now isn't good especially since he didn't say anything of substance.team.

Shin - Shin is leaning towards town for me, it's more of a gut feeling to be honest. Shin is hard for me to read.

Elie - Null, he's not nearly as bad as Coby since he at least gave a reason for his absence. I hope he can post more today.

Green Poet - Her play has been alright and townish. She's low on my scum list

Paperblade - His posts are all short and go right to the conclusion. I don't think it's scummy but there isn't much to look at and it throws me off.

SB - His play seems town but this is the one I'm not really sure about.

Overall
Townish: Sunwoo, Shin, Green Poet, and SB
Nullish: Refa, Elie, Paper,
Scumish: Junko, Coby, and Ocean

I'd vote Junko but he'd be at L-1 since GP is mayor, instead I'm going to

##Vote: Oceanbourne

[Refa]

feel a bit frustrated on people calling me out on having no reads since the only read i have (elieson) hasn't posted very much. @refa in AM/PM 2 elie could not commit for some reason i forgot and rarely posted and was found out to be scum. can happen both alignments.

idk looking back i'm kind of wary about shin (yes shin being scum wary). My read isn't the best because his reasoning makes sense and i actually have trouble explaining how i feel but it;s rather how he went about everything in this game.

Having no reads isn't scummy by itself but you were a major wagon on D1 and I don't buy that you couldn't derive any reads from the people on your wagon. Also Elieson being your strongest read is pretty bad because he hadn't made a significant post after ED1. Fair enough on him acting similarly as scum (forgot about that) though, dropping him back to null.

Too lazy to respond to your Shin case (I don't agree w/Shin that you being uncertain is scummy, you're always uncertain lol) but your voteswitch to Coby was scummy as fuck. It shows a lack of conviction in your case and...dunno how to explain this, but basically a willingness to jump onto someone for minor things (as opposed to scum intent).

I don't like the Junko vote from deadline because it seemed really non-commital even if he was starting to scumread Junko, like he was saying he was doing it because he had to and didn't want to be held responsible for the end result. Also "L-1 this is chaotic" and then "I'll be around so Unvote" feels like he was just hoping shit would go wrong.

Would sheep.

Junko's Shin read is kind of weak in places but I kind of feel like scum!Junko wouldn't say essentially say "my vote fucking sucks but hear me out" and would just try to justify it better. He could probably have just rolled with the second paragraph for the read and been fine so I feel like it's some kind of weird town roundabout logic that made him look at Shin and realise "oh this is actually valid" with how he wrote it that makes me feel like he's town now. The immediate voteswitch is kind of iffy but with how he phrased the Shin vote I can kinda see it?

I don't like Shin's jump onto Junko at all. The colour post feels like it's tearing into Junko's reasoning to try and make him look bad rather than trying to explain why it's wrong. Only the blue text actually addresses the read itself. Also saying that I've been behind the scenes after I was a major wagon for a lot of day 1 and then talked a lot at phase end is blatantly wrong.

I dislike GP's Junko push based on nightkill spec and reacting to a blatantly horrible vote. It looks like GP has a lot of scumreads at first but after looking at them all they're all kind of weak which is worrying. Need to look back at Day 1 to see if this is a trend. Also,I explained that I was starting to dislike Clarinets a few posts before I switched my vote and wasn't feeling strongly about Junko anymore. I kind of feel like GP is trying to avoid fights because it feels like her written reasons for voting either me or to a lesser extent Paperblade (although she's excusing that with meta) are things she thinks are stronger but she goes with the Junko vote instead which I dislike.

Don't agree w/the Junko read (I'm getting very similar vibes to Code Geass overall), fine w/the Shin read (...), and eh on the GP read (the first part is good but I can totally understand why she'd vote Junk over you if she didn't have much faith in her rolespec).

I don't get the kneejerk reaction to Coby's post. It's bad play, but it's not scummy or opportunistic (if he voted the leading wagon, then it would be). Obviously would like some reads from him so I can have a read on him but yeah.

Uh, GP? I'm pretty sure Via claimed. Also do you think Via would be so blatant about self preservation as scum? Why did Via push Clarinets over Junk (a much easier lynch) as scum if they were so interested in self preservation? Also I'm fine with your replies to Boron, but I don't get why SB is more likely to be scum than my slot FYPOV (or Elieson/Paperblade for that matter).

Zerosabers, are you scum (answer: yes)? None of your townreads are adequately explained, I'm...mostly fine with the nullreads (Quote refusing to claim while being on the chopping block would be townie as fuck if it were true, but I'm pretty sure that Quote did claim) and despite agreeing w/the reads, I don't like your actual cases on Oceanbourne and Junk. Puttting someone at L-1 isn't scummy (especially at the end of the day) and you can't complain about Junk's Shin vote being bad and then say that him switching from a bad vote is bad (if it was a bad vote, wouldn't his switch to one of your scumreads for the same reasoning be a good thing?).

[Refa]

You know what? Junk already has enough pressure on him.

##Unvote

##Vote: Zerosabers

[Refa]

i really don't want to be lynched guys and i don't think manix is going to be up in time to sub me

i'm vanilla and i GUESS since we won't lose anything then okay but i'm really sick of this happening and i don't have the motivation to do anything anymore

i don't want to lynch sb anymore but also not me over me

...

[Zerosabers]

Yea I just looked back, he claimed vanilla but I missed it.

PEDIT: And you found it before I posted it.

[Oceanbourne]

@hosts: junko was voting Clarinets at the end of d1 not SB iirc

@Refa: it seems your Elie/GP/Boron/Shin reads are based on the players' meta but you talk about Shin pushing good points yet he's still null compared to your rather lackluster Elie read (and Boron). he didn't really have much pressure on him d1 either, so I don't see why he would have to try to not get lynched considering he went under the radar fairly well

it's unfortunate that a good amount of this might be due to host error but yeah if you really went through all my posts then you would've seen that my very last posts of the day were talking about how I wasn't on the clarinets wagon and yet your reasoning for your original vote on me today was "someone on the wagon is scum" and you thought it strong enough reasoning to vote me over junko. I like wagon analysis as much as the next guy but even that seems rather strong

went through junko's most recent posts and found that a lot were defending himself from stuff, especially cam's posts and the things I did see about him were a vote on the now-claimed SB and some ambiguous read on me. said something about via doing what he did as coming from town/scum, so there's not much of a read there either

Shin already talked about the lack of confidence coming from junko in his most recent vote so there's not much I can say that he hasn't already said

some saving grace for junko is the black text in between Shin's colors that Shin didn't address, also the fact that Shin didn't really respond to junko saying he had one read (concern for the Clarinets wagon, but saying nothing about the target or the wagoners themselves)

it's really a pain to talk about new people like Coby especially considering they just didn't show up d1 but I don't see how you can call it completely "not alignment-indicative" like GP says when he's just using another post's reasoning to throw a vote down.

re: sb, I kinda panicked at the end of d1 cause wasn't entirely sure what was going on. you can see the last posts I made as to my stances, but yeah I suppose I could've done better if I wasn't constantly rereading the last 4 or so pages that popped up close to deadline?

@Zerosabers: hammering people without giving intent to hammer would be scummy. I don't see anything wrong with an L-1 vote especially on a person that I've had a scum read on (it wasn't as strong then, but I certainly didn't see him as town) especially considering it was 90 mins until deadline. why does Junko flipping town make me scum?

it seems that you just have a problem with putting people at L-1 and I'm not aware of why

[Paperblade]

okay w/e I'm tired of dicking around

I'm Watcher, I targeted Cam's target and was redirected to him

I only saw SB visit him

This means SB is mafia if there's no ninja. If SB is town he would have had to also have targeted Cam's target I think because Cam wasn't redirected to him

[Zerosabers]

My problem with L-1 is that it makes it incredibly easy to lynch someone unintentionally or for scum to hammer someone who's town.

Also if Paperblade is telling the truth that's some pretty damning evidence against SB.

[Oceanbourne]

idk looking back i'm kind of wary about shin (yes shin being scum wary). My read isn't the best because his reasoning makes sense and i actually have trouble explaining how i feel but it;s rather how he went about everything in this game.

>when he talks about the elie/paper/via trio his reasoning for the via vote being not that good makes sense but the other two votes he doesn't really talk about much and it just feels empty. I guess the best way to explain is calling the elie/paper/via trio votes easy almost well feels too easy heh. Doesn't help me that i think that elie's vote was not good either in the scummy way and that's the exact reason why i have a gut feeling on him. I don't even think i make sense anymore but i'll keep on going. He doesn't really explain why my exchange with via was bad or why via was bad for it either. When he uses oceanbournes post to say what he felt about me can't help but think that makes his trio of voters look worse since it makes me look like a victim. Reason why this doesn't apply to ocean himself is because think he was voting via for totally differnet reasons than shin.

also it's hypocritical to call me out for no reads when shin has pretty much had one read (via) which like my SB read was also old. Would like to see what you got from reading my and cam's exchange and paper's. Also kind of find it weird how the idea of getting via (who you currently your had vote on i think?) lynched kind of just dropped when you could have tried to advocate to switch to via at least since that was more feasible.

## Vote Shin

where is the problem about talking about the person he votes for the most out of the three (elie/via/paper)?

is it scummy of Shin to use one of my posts to put that trio in a bad light? the portion of this post where you talk about him quoting my post seems rather detached from the rest of your argument, I don't know what point this is trying to make

Refa's slot looks better for the point on junko being eager to switch votes for small stuff and wow I didn't see via's claim in day 1 I swear he was hinting at something instead of outright saying it

[SB.]

holy shit i just realised i targeted the wrong person

[SB.]

how the fuck did i get boron and ocean mixed up

[SB.]

and yes i was redirected

i am half-here and half-busy with stuff, need to finish things up before making a real post

[Refa]

okay w/e I'm tired of dicking around

I'm Watcher, I targeted Cam's target and was redirected to him

I only saw SB visit him

This means SB is mafia if there's no ninja. If SB is town he would have had to also have targeted Cam's target I think because Cam wasn't redirected to him

Mafia having a ninja to counter watcher is plausible (or just having like a 1x ninja) but everything else isn't.

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

[Paperblade]

SB who did you target

[Refa]

@Refa: it seems your Elie/GP/Boron/Shin reads are based on the players' meta but you talk about Shin pushing good points yet he's still null compared to your rather lackluster Elie read (and Boron). he didn't really have much pressure on him d1 either, so I don't see why he would have to try to not get lynched considering he went under the radar fairly well

None of my reads are based solely off of players' metas except Elieson (because he hasn't had any content to analyze). Shin is null because there's reason for him to be scum. Explain why my Elieson and Boron reads are lackluster (as in, why I should elaborate more on them). I don't get what your last point is.

There is literally always scum on a D1 mislynch 100% of the time. I am the most confident in that, fite me IRL.

I'm not getting anything out of your reads but the fact that you're not voting is bad and scum and also not town.

[Refa]

Actually, I can't tell what any of your reads are other than Junk.

[SB.]

SB who did you target

i submitted an action for boron that got redirected to cam when i actually meant to target ocean

[Paperblade]

Why did you target Boron

[SB.]

Don't agree w/the Junko read (I'm getting very similar vibes to Code Geass overall), fine w/the Shin read (...), and eh on the GP read (the first part is good but I can totally understand why she'd vote Junk over you if she didn't have much faith in her rolespec).

I don't get the kneejerk reaction to Coby's post. It's bad play, but it's not scummy or opportunistic (if he voted the leading wagon, then it would be). Obviously would like some reads from him so I can have a read on him but yeah.

I read a little bit of Code Geass and I don't see where you're getting this from? He had way more conviction faked in his reads there than he has in this game.

It's bad to me because it feels like someone told him to do it. Like, why did he decide to sheep that Junko's case of all things when nothing convinced him to talk at all day 1? It doesn't make sense.

[SB.]

Why did you target Boron

i submitted my night action right before sleeping and sent in the wrong name

[Paperblade]

oh wait derp

why did you want to target ocean