Water Mage Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) When she was fighting the apostle's army she had a good reason to, the blood pact. Against the laguz alliance she doesn't have a good reason, all she can know is that it's fuelled by racism. A racist group is aiding another racist group against a group they are racist against. It. Is. Racism. But they are not aiding the other group because of racism, they aiding the other group becuase they called for help.The fact that they are both racists group is irrelevant when the motivation is not racism. Edited May 19, 2016 by Water Mage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) · Hidden by eclipse, May 19, 2016 - No reason given Hidden by eclipse, May 19, 2016 - No reason given Doublepost Edited May 19, 2016 by Tricky Drick Link to comment
BruceLee Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 But they are not aiding the other group because of racism, they aiding the other group becuase they called for help. The fact that they are both racists group is irrelevant when the motivation is not racism. Call for help > Aid? You're just saying it in different words. What reason would they have to aid them, besides enjoying hunting laguz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 What reason would she have for fighting the apostle's army on the bridge in chapter 3-11, before she knew about the blood pact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 When she was fighting the apostle's army she had a good reason to, the blood pact. Against the laguz alliance she doesn't have a good reason, all she can know is that it's fuelled by racism. A racist group is aiding another racist group against a group they are racist against. It. Is. Racism. Micaiah specifically says they are fighting the Laguz at Begnion's request. Begnion is at war with the Laguz which makes their request one for military aid. If Micaiah thought Pelleas was just out for Laguz blood, why even wait for Begnion to ask? Micaiah believes there is another reason for Pelleas cooperating with Begnion and she was correct. Are you saying that an action can't be considered an act of war just because the involved parties are racist? I guess the Americans were just a bunch of racist bigots for fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theater. I mean, if some American soldiers looked forward to killing Japanese soldiers, any other reason for fighting becomes void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 None of this matters because this is what Lehran wanted to happen. Lehran, discontent with waiting another 200 years, allowed the Senate to become so corrupt they burned down Serenes Forest. This lead to a falling out between most of Tellius and the Laguz Nations, save Crimea and Gallia at the national level. The Senate manipulated Ashnard into killing and driving out the Laguz into Begnion, allowing the Senate to enslave them, and further causing tension between Laguz and Beorc. Ashnard then invaded Crimea, which lead to Path of Radiance, which lead to Radiant Dawn. Micaiah's actions DO NOT FUCKING MATTER! Lehran created a situation that would make asses out of everyone involved just so Ashera would pass judgment. Also, I have a headcanon that Soren overthrows Pelleas, Sanaki abdicates to Micaiah, and Kurth forcibly unites all the Laguz nations, with only Crimea having the same ruler it did prior to judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) Call for help > Aid? You're just saying it in different words. What reason would they have to aid them, besides enjoying hunting laguz?Because they are allies?Daein's liberation ended with an alliance between Daein and Begnion. And if Daein and Begnion are allies, it's only natural for one country seek the help of the other, and it's also only natural for the other country answer said call. That's the whole point of an alliance. Daein had no such alliance with the Laguz, thus, other than the fact that the country was still being rebuilt, Daein had no reason to refuse Begnion's call for help. Edited May 19, 2016 by Water Mage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceLee Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) What reason would she have for fighting the apostle's army on the bridge in chapter 3-11, before she knew about the blood pact? Her silly faith in Pelleas apparently. I admit i forgot about that, but it doesn't change anything regarding her first attack on the laguz alliance. She couldn't know she was also going to be fighting the apostle's army, so as far as she could tell it was still fuelled by racism. Micaiah specifically says they are fighting the Laguz at Begnion's request. Begnion is at war with the Laguz which makes their request one for military aid. If Micaiah thought Pelleas was just out for Laguz blood, why even wait for Begnion to ask? Micaiah believes there is another reason for Pelleas cooperating with Begnion and she was correct. Are you saying that an action can't be considered an act of war just because the involved parties are racist? I guess the Americans were just a bunch of racist bigots for fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theater. I mean, if some American soldiers looked forward to killing Japanese soldiers, any other reason for fighting becomes void. You keep saying the same stuff, begnion requests for aid, micaiah has to follow her orders. Tell me why they would aid Begnion, seeing as your whole argument is based off that. Because from where Micaiah sits, the answer is because they enjoy hunting sub-humans. Because they are allies? Daein's liberation ended with an alliance between Daein and Begnion. And if Daein and Begnion are allies, it's only natural for one country seek the help of the other, and it's also only natural for the other country answer said call. That's the whole point of an alliance. Daein had no such alliance with the Laguz, thus, other than the fact that the country was still being rebuilt, Daein had no reason to refuse Begnion's call for help. They were not allies. Both Sothe and Micaiah are shocked that Pelleas is aiding Begnion, and Sothe wonders why they are even talking to them. Edited May 19, 2016 by BruceLee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Her silly faith in Pelleas apparently. I admit i forgot about that, but it doesn't change anything regarding her first attack on the laguz alliance. She couldn't know she was also going to be fighting the apostle's army, so as far as she could tell it was still fuelled by racism. You keep saying the same stuff, begnion requests for aid, micaiah has to follow her orders. Tell me why they would aid Begnion, seeing as your whole argument is based off that. Because from where Micaiah sits, the answer is because they enjoy hunting sub-humans. I keep saying it because you keep ignoring the reality of Daein's position in the world. Begnion's reason is because they are at war with the Laguz Alliance. Daein's reason is because they don't want to piss off a country that could easily topple them if they didn't cooperate. That's just common sense, and Micaiah suspects another reason which is also true. Are you completely detached from the concept of following orders and that NOT following orders can have deadly consequences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Are you completely detached from the concept of following orders and that NOT following orders can have deadly consequences? That was the excuse the senior Nazis had at Nuremberg, but did that save them from the noose? Hell no, they got the fucking noose anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saisymbolic Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 That was the excuse the senior Nazis had at Nuremberg, but did that save them from the noose? Hell no, they got the fucking noose anyway! So, essentially, damned if you do, damned if you don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 That was the excuse the senior Nazis had at Nuremberg, but did that save them from the noose? Hell no, they got the fucking noose anyway! Don't take my posts out of context, please. I'm talking about Daein's inability to resist Begnion's might, not the excuses war criminals make for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceLee Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Daein's reason is because they don't want to piss off a country that could easily topple them if they didn't cooperate. Begnion can topple Daein anytime it wants, doesn't mean you should do anything they tell you to. And it was not an order, it was a request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Why is it okay for Micaiah to fight the Apostles forces but not okay for them to fight the Laguz forces? Both were ordered by Begnion because they are Begnion's enemies.I've proven "blood pact" is not a valid answer to this question, try again. If she thought Pelleas was motivated by racism, why fight the apostle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) Begnion can topple Daein anytime it wants, doesn't mean you should do anything they tell you to. Yet you thought that the blood pact was a valid reason to fight? Edited May 19, 2016 by Tricky Drick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 And it was not an order, it was a request. "Request", as in please help us (and by the way, if you don't, we'll nuke your fucking country and you'll forever be Daein's worst ruler ever.) As I said before, the entire reason Micaiah's anything is ever questioned is because no one even is aware that they are being manipulated, even the manipulators themselves. Sure, the Blood Pact is contrived, but I personally think that if you are unaware of being under a Blood Pact, you will try to justify why you are following it. Once you find out, however, you find out that you can neither stop it nor get anyone not bound by it to help you stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguner159 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Begnion can topple Daein anytime it wants, doesn't mean you should do anything they tell you to. No, but it should avoid aggravating Begnion. Like by say, ignoring a request for military aid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 This is probably just my opinion... but are we even getting the full picture? Micaiah mentions bounties were offered. Are the soldiers' motivations the racism, or the bounties? Both? If so, which one is actually the main one, or are they both giving equal motivation? Who is putting up the bounties anyway? Is it Begnion? If so, does the soldiers then think they can use the rewards to help with the reconstruction of their country? So they fight to be rewarded and use the reward to help their country? If it's true, then is that their main motivation or a side motivation? Who knows. We never get an answer regarding the common soldiers. We only know that racism plays a part. But not if it's the main part, or one of the lessers ones. The only one, or one of many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Sen Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) If she thought Pelleas was motivated by racism, why fight the apostle? Nothing in the game suggests she considers racism to be Pelleas' motive, that's the point. Also, I think you're getting your quotes mixed up. Begnion can topple Daein anytime it wants, doesn't mean you should do anything they tell you to. I mean, if we want to be specific, Lekain ordered Pelleas to attack the Laguz Alliance and then in turn Pelleas ordered Micaiah to lead the assault on them. And while Micaiah can oppose Begnion (even though that would be a very stupid move, blood pact or no), Pelleas and Daein as a whole can't. Edited May 19, 2016 by AzureSen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceLee Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 I pointed out earlier that the laguz alliance had already proposed a peace treaty and were marching back to their countries when Micaiah and her soldiers ambushed them. No one seems to be bothered addressing that. I've proven "blood pact" is not a valid answer to this question, try again.If she thought Pelleas was motivated by racism, why fight the apostle? I already answered that, scroll up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Nothing in the game suggests she considers racism to be Pelleas' motive, that's the point. Also, I think you're getting your quotes mixed up. Yeah, that question is directed at BruceLee. I quoted NekoKnight because I've showed that the original answer to his question is faulty reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 I already answered that, scroll up. You said blood pact, I told you that Micaiah fought the apostle before she learnt about the blood pact. You need to answer it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceLee Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) There is very much that suggest Pelleas' motive is racism, that i've already pointed out numerous times. I am getting very annoyed with this discussion. You said blood pact, I told you that Micaiah fought the apostle before she learnt about the blood pact. You need to answer it again. And i answered you again dude, scroll up ffs. Edited May 19, 2016 by BruceLee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) I pointed out earlier that the laguz alliance had already proposed a peace treaty and were marching back to their countries when Micaiah and her soldiers ambushed them. No one seems to be bothered addressing that. Zelgius offered a peace treaty, but it was overruled by the senators before Daein's involvement. Senator: That does sound lovely, I admit. But hasn't General Zelgius ordered all forces to cease fire for three days? Lombroso: Who is in charge here, my lord? Must you follow Zelgius's orders? Senator: Hah, I see your point. I shall leave everything to you, then. Make Begnion proud, Lord Lombroso. She couldn't know she was also going to be fighting the apostle's army, so as far as she could tell it was still fuelled by racism. On the bridge, she does know she is fighting the Apostle. So that's not an answer either. You need to answer it again. If you don't, I assume you can't. Edited May 19, 2016 by Tricky Drick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 (edited) I pointed out earlier that the laguz alliance had already proposed a peace treaty and were marching back to their countries when Micaiah and her soldiers ambushed them. No one seems to be bothered addressing that. Actually, they didn't. Zelgius offered the choice, with a three-day cease-fire to think it over. They instead choose to use the time to retreat, and a peace offer was never officially done. And then the Senate overruled Zelgius cease-fire since they outrank him. Edited May 19, 2016 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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