The Absolute Worst Fire Emblem Characters.

[Augestein]

I didn't bring boss abuse as part of the argument but rather as a way to train her if you're desperate on making her a good unit; sorry if how I said it was misleading. But still, I recall using her without issues without boss abuse and instead used Bexp, seraph robe, drop, shield and a forge.

@Agustein, why bring Tibarn to the discussion, by that standards let's just say use Gatrie instead of Meg and use Titania instead of Fiona. The problem I have with Meg is that needs basically Fiona's same treatment: An energy drop, a Dracoshield, a forge and BEXP throughout all P1 and P3. She just needs less care because you have more time to take care of her. But she'll forever be used as a filler and just that, while Fiona has a chance to shine in Part 4, and then continue to be a filler.

Why do I defend Fiona, after all? Because it is dumb to make such an argument when you have a generous game like RD, where literally every unit is viable if you know how to manage them. That's why I see unreasonable to argue FE10 has the worst unit of the series.

You did mention it, so how was I to know that you weren't using that as an argument?

Because Tibarn is literally forced in that chapter and you chose to bring up. Fliers have the advantage here, and they are moving better than everyone else. The map is designed to give fliers an advantage. That's my point. Look at all the stuff you've jammed on Fiona. BEXP, an energy drop, a dracoshield, a forge? All of that are signs of a horrible unit. Even units like Sophia would be good if I gave her around 12,000+ funds to perform better. It's not even done to make her good, but just enough to perform on par with everyone else. Giving a unit BEXP is the equivalent to giving them stat boosters. You're basically saying if I jam almost every stat booster on this unit, they're okay. If I buy stat boosters for Wendy and play slower (without boss abuse or anything), Wendy can still be used. There has to be some standard where you just say, "this unit is terrible."

The same thing applies to every Fire Emblem. If you slow yourself down to use a unit, you can use it. Unless a unit literally can't do anything is the only way you, the player, can't make a unit viable.

[Jedi]

Yeah Midir is mounted in mount emblem, its quite honestly obvious who is the better choice here, Jamke has good combat but thats pretty much all he has, Midir has solid combat and can actually get to the fray in a faster run. (Foot units are perfectly fine in a more casual sense, but overall... yeah).

To mention what Irysa covered too, passing down Pursuit is a pretty good thing for Gen 2 in general, its a skill you always want to have if you can have it. Or else you're forced to use a brave weapon to basically replicate it.

[Quintessence]

Because Tibarn is literally forced in that chapter and you chose to bring up. Fliers have the advantage here, and they are moving better than everyone else. The map is designed to give fliers an advantage. That's my point. Look at all the stuff you've jammed on Fiona. BEXP, an energy drop, a dracoshield, a forge? All of that are signs of a horrible unit. Even units like Sophia would be good if I gave her around 12,000+ funds to perform better. It's not even done to make her good, but just enough to perform on par with everyone else. Giving a unit BEXP is the equivalent to giving them stat boosters. You're basically saying if I jam almost every stat booster on this unit, they're okay. If I buy stat boosters for Wendy and play slower (without boss abuse or anything), Wendy can still be used. There has to be some standard where you just say, "this unit is terrible."

The same thing applies to every Fire Emblem. If you slow yourself down to use a unit, you can use it. Unless a unit literally can't do anything is the only way you, the player, can't make a unit viable.

Forced? Yes. Do I have to use it? No. So? This is not a guide about how to play FE or something.

All the statboosters are available in the gane and cost you 0G so the only true cost is the forge (in G units) and BEXP. The difference between Fiona and Wendy/Sofiya is that you can BEXP Fiona from the beginning and at least she can take kills and get hit from the beginning; but Wendy/Sofiya need extra care.

Since when have I implied you need to turtle to make Fiona worth? For instance, my experience with Fiona is from drafts (LTC settings) and she did well, as I have pointed out. Knowing how to use a unit is not 'take 100 turns to buff them and level them up'.

[Augestein]

No point in bringing up ltcs though as Jill spam would be better. Slowing down is not even close to saying 100 turns. That's pretty over-the-top don't you think?

My point is that you can give anyone stuff and they'd suck less.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Augestein

[Raguna]

No point in bringing up ltcs though as Jill spam would be better. Slowing down is not even close to saying 100 turns. That's pretty over-the-top don't you think?

My point is that you can give anyone stuff and they'd suck less.

I think the general point is Fiona beats out Wendy/Sophia because she can hit some enemies with no fear of dying and thanks to the all helpful Paragon scroll that comes after defeating the boss in the chapter you later recruit her in, Fiona can end up doing well in the long run with little to somewhat moderate babying while Sophia and Wendy are going to be stuck for the long haul.

Also bringing up Jill doesn't come up as very productive in the case of ltcs because it reminds me of similar situations. For example, why use Hana or Hinata if Ryoma can spam his lightning sword? The only maps that bog Fiona down are the ones crossing the laguz river, but you aren't suppose to be moving much on that map so she could get in the kills your tanks didn't take out.

[Shadow Mir]

The only maps that bog Fiona down are the ones crossing the laguz river, but you aren't suppose to be moving much on that map so she could get in the kills your tanks didn't take out.

Agreed - I generally don't see going into the river as worth it.

[Gradivus.]

No point in bringing up ltcs though as Jill spam would be better.

Not every LTC run is full-on LTC that uses all units. Drafts, as the main example for this, restrict your unit pool massively so you're going to rely on subpar units to do some of the work. (Not that I care about the Meg vs Fiona discussion though, just an FYI)

Edited August 1, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Augestein]

The only maps that bog Fiona down are the ones crossing the laguz river, but you aren't suppose to be moving much on that map so she could get in the kills your tanks didn't take out

the prison map hurts her as well, as she has no choice but to go up the stairs. It's not a big problem, and her biggest advantage that she'd have for having subpar stats is taken away because it's indoor so she has 6 move. Canto / Rescue chains are worthless in an instance where someone can literally move the same distances, and there aren't many cases I can think of where someone would move exactly next to a mounted unit, only for them to rescue said unit, and then be dropped off by someone else.

1-8 she doesn't even exist which once again puts her at a disadvantage for what levels a person could realistically gain from the chapter.

1-E : the cliffs are the best way to proceed through the map. And once again, it's indoor so -2 movement. That in itself wouldn't be bad if the cliffs didn't shave off several turns. So by the time she goes around the stairs, she's going to be behind. Even worse is that there's no reason to kill that knight blocking the stairs when you can just ignore it under normal circumstances. And bare in mind that killing this only helps Fiona. Everyone else can ignore it.

I wasn't just talking about Fiona's stats that suck. The maps hate her too. Even on 3-6, having the option to push further in the river is still a better option than it just plain not existing. Even if you never need it, I'd still rather be able to do it regardless. It's like waterwalk. Even if you never use it, there's no reason to be dismissive of its existence in the event that you could in theory, cross water. 3-12 and 3-13 are Fiona's best maps from the DB by far, and the issue is that the myriad of issues from earlier stack against her to make her kind of suck. Sort of like Wendy's suck. Wendy is kind of bad when you first get her, but then suddenly the maps become axe heavy chapters, and she starts to suck, and by the time the axe chapters are over, she barely gained any levels and continues to lag behind.

Not every LTC run is full-on LTC that uses all units. Drafts, as the main example for this, restrict your unit pool massively so you're going to rely on subpar units to do some of the work. (Not that I care about the Meg vs Fiona discussion though, just an FYI)

Yeah. I get that. I made my point kinda badly because I was on the phone, but draft ltcs aren't normal circumstances. So I don't see the point of talking about a draft when you don't have a choice. If we're going to even bother bringing up ltcs, you may as well bring the best or don't bother bringing it up. As if I had a ltc draft with nothing but knights, obviously I'm going to go out of my way to use a knight. Versus, there would be a point made if the best ltc of RD involved specifically needing Fiona.

It's like we don't say DD's 0% growths prove that other units are useless because he didn't use them in his playthrough much. You get where I'm going with this? I was under the impression that "worst" meant bad. The issue I have with Fiona, is that you spend more time giving her BEXP than actually using her. Even assuming she had amazing stats, this would still be the case. Giving units items and bexp should not be a sign of a good unit. Otherwise, someone like Amelia wouldn't be considered the worst unit in Sacred Stones because you can grind her to a cavalier. BEXP is in the same boat IMO. Because even grinding for EXP in SS is finite because you could realistically break all of your weapons.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Augestein

[NoMommaGarchomp]

FE6 has the trend that everyone is either an absolute god or extremely bad.
Wendy, Sophie, Bors and Barth were REALLY screwed up by this.
Garreth also joins at a point in the game where he would rather have high Res than Defense.
FE7 Merlinus can't move. YOU NEED TO BACKTRACK ALL THE WAY TO THE BEGINNING OF THE LEVEL TO ACCESS THE DAMN CONVOY. But even then, he is more useful that Wendy.
Arden is only a castle defender. His combat isn't anything good, and he falls behind because half of your army is on ponies.

[Shadow Mir]

1-E : the cliffs are the best way to proceed through the map. And once again, it's indoor so -2 movement. That in itself wouldn't be bad if the cliffs didn't shave off several turns. So by the time she goes around the stairs, she's going to be behind. Even worse is that there's no reason to kill that knight blocking the stairs when you can just ignore it under normal circumstances. And bare in mind that killing this only helps Fiona. Everyone else can ignore it.

I wasn't just talking about Fiona's stats that suck. The maps hate her too. Even on 3-6, having the option to push further in the river is still a better option than it just plain not existing. Even if you never need it, I'd still rather be able to do it regardless. It's like waterwalk. Even if you never use it, there's no reason to be dismissive of its existence in the event that you could in theory, cross water. 3-12 and 3-13 are Fiona's best maps from the DB by far, and the issue is that the myriad of issues from earlier stack against her to make her kind of suck. Sort of like Wendy's suck. Wendy is kind of bad when you first get her, but then suddenly the maps become axe heavy chapters, and she starts to suck, and by the time the axe chapters are over, she barely gained any levels and continues to lag behind.

To be fair, trying to take the ledges at the beginning leaves you open to being sniped by enemies with ledge advantage, which really isn't something I'd want to put up with since aside from BK, no one's going to be able to fight back well. And another knight blocks one of the ledges too.

Fair enough, though with 3-6 being fog of war, pushing into the river is just asking for death imho (again, unless you're BK, but he doesn't show up until several turns in).

Edited August 2, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

To be fair, trying to take the ledges at the beginning leaves you open to being sniped by enemies with ledge advantage, which really isn't something I'd want to put up with since aside from BK, no one's going to be able to fight back well. And another knight blocks one of the ledges too.

Fair enough, though with 3-6 being fog of war, pushing into the river is just asking for death imho (again, unless you're BK, but he doesn't show up until several turns in).

But really, why would you NOT use the BK here? I mean, the only way you wouldn't is if someone said "you can't use the BK" Of which case, Muarim picking up Micaiah and trekking over there and blowing up the knight with Thani is still a better option than using Fiona, and he *STILL* does this faster than she does. Now granted she won't be as far behind, but I'm really sitting here scratching my head on this one.

A person with Resolve and Earth affinity can pull it off. even more nuts is someone like Resolve Nolan with Edward + that Dracoshield + Tarvos would be rocking 23 evade + 8 defense and in resolve levels would have like a 20-30% chance of being hit. Oh, and the BK I guess. You can also have the BK be unequipped, and the AI believes BK to be a better target if it can't kill someone. Like don't get me wrong, I normally don't push, but I've had BS misses on this chapter at moments where some target just magically dodges at like 90 hit. Or even pushing in this like how it's nice for Jill to be able to fly a little ahead and throw an axe or use the brave axe and then scoot back to safety.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Augestein

[JasonMendez]

Hm. No mention of FE6 Merlinus yet Wendy and Sophia get mentioned. Sure they aren't the best, but Merlinus is downright useless. As the chapter progress he can get one shotted just because he has to partake in a lot of battles to go up even one level. He's much better in FE7.

[Moblin Major General]

Hm. No mention of FE6 Merlinus yet Wendy and Sophia get mentioned. Sure they aren't the best, but Merlinus is downright useless. As the chapter progress he can get one shotted just because he has to partake in a lot of battles to go up even one level. He's much better in FE7.

You mean where Merlinus gets mounted units up his ass because he can't ride along with you? Chapter 16E/17H come to mind here, as does the previous chapter.

[Lord Raven]

Hm. No mention of FE6 Merlinus yet Wendy and Sophia get mentioned. Sure they aren't the best, but Merlinus is downright useless. As the chapter progress he can get one shotted just because he has to partake in a lot of battles to go up even one level. He's much better in FE7.

He is good for luring out enemies because he doesn't die, and you can do some nice warp shenanigans with him. Look at any LTC run of Chapter 22 and you'll see what I mean.

FE6 has the trend that everyone is either an absolute god or extremely bad.

Wendy, Sophie, Bors and Barth were REALLY screwed up by this.

Garreth also joins at a point in the game where he would rather have high Res than Defense.

FE7 Merlinus can't move. YOU NEED TO BACKTRACK ALL THE WAY TO THE BEGINNING OF THE LEVEL TO ACCESS THE DAMN CONVOY. But even then, he is more useful that Wendy.

Arden is only a castle defender. His combat isn't anything good, and he falls behind because half of your army is on ponies.

The first line is far from true. Zealot and Marcus really taper out and a lot of units are between mediocre and above average but not outstanding. Other units are Noah, OJ, Deak, and Echidna AMONG OTHERS who aren't godly but just mediocre to decent. I'm not saying it's a balanced game but the best unit (Miledy) isn't even godly.

[Augestein]

Yeah, I think the problem is the same problem that happened with tier list years ago that I remember people doing here. People value different things and give them different weights. I think I'll just stand on the agree to disagree. Although, I will say there's one thing Merlinus can do: give you anything from your inventory. That's pretty powerful.

[Quintessence]

Yeah. I get that. I made my point kinda badly because I was on the phone, but draft ltcs aren't normal circumstances. So I don't see the point of talking about a draft when you don't have a choice. If we're going to even bother bringing up ltcs, you may as well bring the best or don't bother bringing it up. As if I had a ltc draft with nothing but knights, obviously I'm going to go out of my way to use a knight. Versus, there would be a point made if the best ltc of RD involved specifically needing Fiona.

It's like we don't say DD's 0% growths prove that other units are useless because he didn't use them in his playthrough much. You get where I'm going with this? I was under the impression that "worst" meant bad. The issue I have with Fiona, is that you spend more time giving her BEXP than actually using her. Even assuming she had amazing stats, this would still be the case. Giving units items and bexp should not be a sign of a good unit. Otherwise, someone like Amelia wouldn't be considered the worst unit in Sacred Stones because you can grind her to a cavalier. BEXP is in the same boat IMO. Because even grinding for EXP in SS is finite because you could realistically break all of your weapons.

The problem I see here is how people conceive the concept of LTC. I don't agree with people conceiving LTC as a method rather than a style of playing the game. Most people think LTC is a way to clear the game with certain specific units in order to achieve the minimum turncount possible with strats, stats, lv ups, dodges, crts, etc., being rigged to death. Problem here is that the way you conceive the concept restricts the pool of units you mainly use, and as a result you'll always end up using Haar, Jill, Royals, etc. Meanwhile I think LTC is a playstyle where the objective is not minimizing TC but rather optimizing it (which has its differences), one concept is exclusive while the other is inclusive. I prefer the latter, since in that way I can LTC with whatever character I use, in that way I can LTC with Fiona, Mist, Meg and so on. What option is better? What option is worse? What right one has to say one option is objectively superior than the other when the point of the game is to have fun?

Edit: FE is a series of high replay value, and such conception kills the added value of the game. Imo the game should promote creativity, the use of all the cast, try different methods and ways to clear the game. In other words, experience the game in so many ways.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Quintessence

[Augestein]

Believe me, I have played in a ton of ways. There was a time where when I moved out, RD and Brawl were like... The only games I had and I had left my books in an inaccessible place, so the only thing I could do was... Play this or Brawl. >_>

That's why I said in my post that I believe that we're going to have to settle on an "agree to disagree," as there are different things we clearly weigh differently. And yes, I agree that LTCing is about optimizing turn counts rather than having a minimal turn count. I can get behind that. Instead of rigging a 4% critical with Titania to finish say... Chapter 4 of PoR in 2 turns, but instead find a way to get Titania over and possibly another unit to force it to be dead in 3 and guarantee it.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, I think the problem is the same problem that happened with tier list years ago that I remember people doing here. People value different things and give them different weights. I think I'll just stand on the agree to disagree. Although, I will say there's one thing Merlinus can do: give you anything from your inventory. That's pretty powerful.

I agree that tier lists are BS, but any run of chapter 22 is better if you can warp from two sides. Chapter 20x is kind of the same idea as well. He can still work as a distraction for enemies if you're playing slow because he can still come back and you can still send stuff to the convoy. Merlinus is zero combat and good utility which you can't say ablut Wendy and Sophia.

[Valkarian]

Wendy: Bad Bases, Bad Class, Bad Growths, Massive competition for Knight's Crest, Lance Lock till promotion,

Deirdre: Bad Availability, Shit Movement, Frail as wet toilet paper. At least she banged Sigurd and The BBQ host.

At least Ardan has Availability and at least he is durable enough for the whole game to be able to defend the castle, at least for long enough so that you can get your "God on Wheels"(Sigurd) to be warped back to the home castle. And At least he gives you a Pursuit Ring for Levin and later Levin!Arthur in the Second Gen.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Valkarian

[Lord Raven]

She also uses silence on various enemies and can hit/heal for a bunch of damage. Literally the fact that she can use Silence to make the boss of her join chapter everyone's bitch makes her automatically more useful than the majority of characters.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Topaz Light]

The problem I see here is how people conceive the concept of LTC. I don't agree with people conceiving LTC as a method rather than a style of playing the game. Most people think LTC is a way to clear the game with certain specific units in order to achieve the minimum turncount possible with strats, stats, lv ups, dodges, crts, etc., being rigged to death. Problem here is that the way you conceive the concept restricts the pool of units you mainly use, and as a result you'll always end up using Haar, Jill, Royals, etc. Meanwhile I think LTC is a playstyle where the objective is not minimizing TC but rather optimizing it (which has its differences), one concept is exclusive while the other is inclusive. I prefer the latter, since in that way I can LTC with whatever character I use, in that way I can LTC with Fiona, Mist, Meg and so on. What option is better? What option is worse? What right one has to say one option is objectively superior than the other when the point of the game is to have fun?

Edit: FE is a series of high replay value, and such conception kills the added value of the game. Imo the game should promote creativity, the use of all the cast, try different methods and ways to clear the game. In other words, experience the game in so many ways.

It's important to understand that people rarely play LTC the first time through a Fire Emblem game. Low Turn Count playthroughs are actually a self-imposed challenge designed to increase the game's replay value, and lots of people who play LTC don't only play LTC.

And, I haven't really seen people use LTC performance to compare characters in this thread, even? For the most part, the assessments seem to be based on...

• Immediate usefulness. How good the character is right away, without having leveled them up at all yet. This is tied to...
• Joining circumstances. How conducive the unit's recruitment chapter—and the following few chapters—are to being able to use that unit effectively.
• Availability. Renault is a fantastic Light-user and staffbot in all those forty maps you don't have him for.
• The effort versus reward ratio involved in using that unit. For Wendy and Sophia, for example, you have to put in a lot of effort to get them up to par with your other characters, and once they're there, they're... just okay. Unless you get lucky, you're not gonna get an obscenely-powerful unit out of leveling up Wendy or Sophia. You can get a usable unit out of either of them, certainly, but that's a lot of time and resources you're pouring into a unit who's not even gonna end up being a contender for any VIP position. Time and resources that could've gone into other units who weren't balanced to appeal to masochists.

None of those are inherently tied to a low turn count-oriented playstyle.

You can totally use whatever units you want! You can do an entire playthrough using only the bottom 13 or so worst units in the game, if you like, and nobody's telling you you can't. But comparing characters is utterly pointless unless you have some objective metrics with which to decide what's a good or bad quality for a unit, and how much each positive quality is worth in determining the overall competency of a character. (And how much each negative quality detracts from their overall value)

Edited August 8, 2016 by Topaz Light

[Shadow Mir]

But really, why would you NOT use the BK here? I mean, the only way you wouldn't is if someone said "you can't use the BK" Of which case, Muarim picking up Micaiah and trekking over there and blowing up the knight with Thani is still a better option than using Fiona, and he *STILL* does this faster than she does. Now granted she won't be as far behind, but I'm really sitting here scratching my head on this one.

A person with Resolve and Earth affinity can pull it off. even more nuts is someone like Resolve Nolan with Edward + that Dracoshield + Tarvos would be rocking 23 evade + 8 defense and in resolve levels would have like a 20-30% chance of being hit. Oh, and the BK I guess. You can also have the BK be unequipped, and the AI believes BK to be a better target if it can't kill someone. Like don't get me wrong, I normally don't push, but I've had BS misses on this chapter at moments where some target just magically dodges at like 90 hit. Or even pushing in this like how it's nice for Jill to be able to fly a little ahead and throw an axe or use the brave axe and then scoot back to safety.

I don't know whether your meaning of "use" is simply "field the BK" (which I have no issue with) or if it's actively allowing him to get kills (which I do have a problem with, as far as 1-E is concerned), but I'd seek to maximize EXP intake for the Daeins and get them promoted before 3-6 (or at least get them close to promotion).

Biorhythm can potentially swing those 20-30s into something much more worrisome, and who's to say that they won't just go for the other guy instead? Fair enough on BK and Jill. Also, looking at the stats, the enemies in 3-6 have somewhere in the vein of 132 to 142 hit. A 20/1 Nolan has 52 natural evade. Adding Resolve and an A support to that bumps that up to 93. Personally, I don't really like those odds, especially since this is dependent on being at or below half HP in the first place.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[PKSlowpoke]

Leo from Gaiden is a real disappointment. He's an archer with his two best stats being HP and Defense, two stats that aren't really needed for archers with their 1-5 range whe equipped with a bow or promoted to Bow Knight

[BrightBow]

I don't know whether your meaning of "use" is simply "field the BK" (which I have no issue with) or if it's actively allowing him to get kills (which I do have a problem with, as far as 1-E is concerned), but I'd seek to maximize EXP intake for the Daeins and get them promoted before 3-6 (or at least get them close to promotion).

Well, you get more BEXP if you clear the map faster and without the BK this map is one hell of a slog. Not just because you would have to take the stairs but also because enemies here benefit from Jarod's leadership stars so your attacks will miss constantly while enemies will always hit. And not only is the Dawn Brigade pretty squishy in general but if we assume that we also deploy Fiona... well, she is still going to be pretty damn squishy while also making everyone else weaker due to all the exp that would have to been feed to her in order to make her able to do as much as scratch anything in this chapter. And it doesn't take long until reinforcements arrive, who are quite a problem without a ledge advantage.

Also, wouldn't you be unable to stop the thieves from taking all the treasure if you take the long way?

Edited August 12, 2016 by BrightBow

[Alastor15243]

I'm not sure who the worst unit in Fates is. I beat Birthright and Conquest on hard in an ironman run with one non-cutscene death on Birthright and no deaths at all on Conquest. I've only just started revelation. I've heard that Odin and the other retainers of the Nohrian princes have astonishingly bad bases for when you get them, but other than that I haven't found any who are outright terrible. Hell, Arthur managed to be pretty damned awesome as a sniper and I never had to put him in any situations where he risked death. Honestly if it weren't for their early-game healing use and their early-game utility getting high-end skills to pass down to children quickly I'd probably say Felicia and Jakob, since their growths are pretty damned terrible considering their bases and the fact that they don't get promotion gains.

However, Subaki was pretty damned bad. His speed growth is amazingly crap for a pegasus knight, and not normally having access to a genuinely tanky class undermines his strengths. Rinkah's pretty lame as well, but her utility as the only person who can give anyone the Oni Savage tree means she makes a pretty good wife or bestie.